Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: ftwizard on October 29, 2006, 12:23:37 AM
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Something I can't quite understand. If the classic Page tone was made using a '58/'59 Les Paul with standard PAF pickups, why do we need to use a hot version, ie Black Dog, to emulate it.
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Maybe he had is bridge rewound a little hotter?
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Maybe he had is bridge rewound a little hotter?
Maybe, but the same principle applies to Riff Raffs, Stormy Mondays, Cold Sweats, etc.
The pickups that these are meant to emulate are all probably PAF's.
Wouldn't one pickup cover all these tones?
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The BKs arent supposed to mimic the actual pickups.
They're just named for that sort of vibe.
I mean, take the Warpig. Iommi never used that much gain! Not by a long shot. Nor is it supposed to sound like sabbath. Its just named that because it gets the message accross of what the pickups about.
They have their own sound.
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I didn't read the full forum before posting, so this is going to read like a repeat of what MDV said: :oops:
You'd have to ask Tim for the real story (I don't work for BKP, I just play 'em), but here's my guess:
Maybe Tim doesn't make the pickups to emulate or replicate the tone of a famous guitarist (in this case, Page), but probably has a 'sound' in mind when he's winding them, and then assigns them a label which suits the vibe of that sound (e.g. "They've kind of got that Jimmy Page tone going"). If you wanted to exactly duplicate Page's sound you'd buy the guy's exact equipment, but if you wanted to have your own distinct tone, but with a bit of that Page vibe, you'd buy the Black Dogs.
That's just a guess - Tim will be able to tell you what his actual intentions were.
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You'd have to ask Tim for the real story (I don't work for BKP, I just play 'em), but here's my guess:
Maybe Tim doesn't make the pickups to emulate or replicate the tone of a famous guitarist (in this case, Page), but probably has a 'sound' in mind when he's winding them, and then assigns them a label which suits the vibe of that sound (e.g. "They've kind of got that Jimmy Page tone going"). If you wanted to exactly duplicate Page's sound you'd buy the guy's exact equipment, but if you wanted to have your own distinct tone, but with a bit of that Page vibe, you'd buy the Black Dogs.
That's just a guess - Tim will be able to tell you what his actual intentions were.
Thats basically it.
But its still not "If you want a page tone then its the black dog": it can do more than that, and more BKs than just that can do pagey sounds.
its a statement of the attitude of the pickup as much as anything, I think.
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Maybe he had is bridge rewound a little hotter?
Maybe, but the same principle applies to Riff Raffs, Stormy Mondays, Cold Sweats, etc.
The pickups that these are meant to emulate are all probably PAF's.
Wouldn't one pickup cover all these tones?
Not really. PAFs weren't consistant. They used Alnico II, IV, and V magnets in them and the number of windings could be all over the place. One PAF could could sound one way, then the next off the line could sound quite different. The three 'vintage' pickup options with your choice of magnet are probably meant to reflect this.
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Yes, I can understand it as a marketing tool. The guy who has an SG and loves AC/DC is going to be drawn to the Riff Raff etc. But any PAF clone is going to give that sound through the right amp.
I'm not dissing BKP's by the way, I have one in my LPJ and I think it's great, I'm just not sure you need so many variations to obtain what is a fairly standard tone.
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Yes, I can understand it as a marketing tool. The guy who has an SG and loves AC/DC is going to be drawn to the Riff Raff etc. But any PAF clone is going to give that sound through the right amp.
I'm not dissing BKP's by the way, I have one in my LPJ and I think it's great, I'm just not sure you need so many variations to obtain what is a fairly standard tone.
You seem to be assuming that people are choosing pickups trying to immitate a tone.
I dont think thats often the case.
"I want my guitar to sound exactly like Pages in Black Dog"
Nah. Rare, that.
People go for a sound in their head, and the BK names are a characterfull, kinda humourous guide to the sorts of sound that you can get with the pickup. People add it all up and make their choice.
I mean, I play death metal on, amongst other things, a miracle man. And I didnt choose it for the name. Go figure.
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I think screamindaisy sums up what I thought anyway.
I think the idea of the BK pickup naming was to imply (not emulate) the vibe of the pickups which happened to have their own personalitys.
Before the days of automatic winders & stuff every person winding a pickup would do it the way they thought was right.
Not only that but they thought nothing about changing material specs on the fly.
You will hear that in old strat pickups one particular workers are more highly treasured over others (Abagale Yarra or something like that I think, somebody will correct me)
In those days you could get a real honey or a dog, where as in later years almost everything was equally unimpressive. I remember reading interviews about Hendrix testing practically every strat in town to get one that he liked the sound of.
Rob...
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OK, but do you think there is definite niche for each variation, or would one type cover all.
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BKP produce 15 different types of humbucker (I'm saying a Mule is one type even though the bridge and neck are different) whereas DM produce 25 types (again not includng neck versions) and SD again 25 standard non-custom models, infact DM make 7 types of pickup with the word PAF in the name!
So from a commercial perspective there's certainly a market but I don't think there's overkill with the variations on the PAF theme at BKP, every variation has it's place... Wouldn't it be like saying you only need one guitar to get any sound you want?
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OK, but do you think there is definite niche for each variation, or would one type cover all.
Pass. On the whole at least.
You'd have to as a customer that has tried most to all of them. And then you'd get a biased answer because they likely wouldnt have bothered doing that if they werent rather enthuiastic about the different characters of different pickups/guitar sounds.
And anyone that hasnt is obviously someone that is satisfied with a close-enough sound to whatever they wanted to achieve.
So basically it depends on the guitarist in question.
Personally, I use:
Warpig
Ceramic WP
MM
Cold Sweat
Uber 23k double screw pole MM
Irish tours
Uber trilogies
Plus a bunch of other pickups.
And I dont listen to Ozzy, sabbath, or malmsteen and I dont even know what the cold sweat is named after (I do listen to Rory Gallagher though). I went for those to achieve a sound in my head derived from all the music I listen to and tones I've heard and used in person.
I do appreciate the differences between each one and go for the guitars they're in based on the character of the tone, but recognise that for example there are 4 very powerfull bridge metal buckers there and many poeple would say they do the same job.
Thats kind of true. But to me its just no fun. Theres enough differences in the tones for me see a different character in each, and I like that.
I suppose what I'm trying to say is if youre satisfied with one sound that approximates many, then fine. If you want many specific sounds, also fine.
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OK, but do you think there is definite niche for each variation, or would one type cover all.
I think the answer is a bit of yes and a bit of no.
I think that if you were looking for a vintage output PAF style pickup and all that was offered was the Mule you'd probably get it an be happy.
However, since he offers three different variations you can choose what flavour of PAF you want. Do you want softer and more rounded? Or perhalps something with a touch more mids? They're all filling the same niche, but they're filling it in slightly different ways.
and I dont even know what the cold sweat is named after (I do listen to Rory Gallagher though).
I'm told the Cold Sweat is similar (though not exactly the same) as the 70s era Super Distortion. If you look at it's DC and it's description, it kinda makes sense.
Speaking of descriptions, does anyone else find the descriptions on the product pages a little.....I don't know......undescriptive?
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But any PAF clone is going to give that sound through the right amp.
OMG, don't repeat this blasphemy in a gathering of vintage Les Paul owners!!!
They might beat up on you with the nearest PAF clone :wink:
It appears you haven't spent enough time in forums discussing the minutiae of vintage PAF tone. Some people can hear, or think they can hear, differences in the type of magnet wire insulation, and in the type of nickel in the pickup covers.
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OK, but do you think there is definite niche for each variation, or would one type cover all.
Does one guitar cover all styles?
Does one amp cover all tones?
Does one sandwich cover all tastes?
Is a ham sandwich with mayo the same as a ham sandwich without mayo?
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It appears you haven't spent enough time in forums discussing the minutiae of vintage PAF tone. Some people can hear, or think they can hear, differences in the type of magnet wire insulation, and in the type of nickel in the pickup covers.
Some people need to spend more time playing guitar and less time listening to different pickup covers......
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^ well said...
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It appears you haven't spent enough time in forums discussing the minutiae of vintage PAF tone. Some people can hear, or think they can hear, differences in the type of magnet wire insulation, and in the type of nickel in the pickup covers.
Some people need to spend more time playing guitar and less time listening to different pickup covers......
I completely agree, and yet, here we all are. :wink:
BTW Eric Johnson has said that he prefers certain brands of batteries in his pedals because they give him better tone. He also uses rubber bands in his Fuzz pedal to hold the battery because he claims the cover alters the tone.
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I completely agree, and yet, here we all are. :wink:
BTW Eric Johnson has said that he prefers certain brands of batteries in his pedals because they give him better tone. He also uses rubber bands in his Fuzz pedal to hold the battery because he claims the cover alters the tone.
I thought the Eric Johnson thing was a misquote and that he actually prefered certain types of batteries (alkaline?) to others (zinc-carbon?)
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Maybe he had is bridge rewound a little hotter?
Page did have a special made (overwound) bridge pickup at least on the one Joe Walsh sold to him I think that's the '58 (I know he has a '58 and '59).
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BTW Eric Johnson has said that he prefers certain brands of batteries in his pedals because they give him better tone. He also uses rubber bands in his Fuzz pedal to hold the battery because he claims the cover alters the tone.
BTW I just determined Eric Johnson is psychotic if this is true....
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Wouldn't one pickup cover all these tones?
Yeah, its called the Mule :P
At least, I can get most tones I want out of a Mule set.
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Sometimes I think, that as consumers, we just have too much choice.
I've just ripped the pickups, pots and caps, out of my '59 Historic, and fitted CTS pots and real Bumblebee caps, and now I can't make up my mind what pups to put back in. If there was only one or two to choose from, I'd have done it by now. As it is, I feel if I pick one type, I'll be missing out on something that another type could give me......
So I'm thinking, the reason I bought a LP, is because I want it to sound like a LP and all the classic tones came from, and still do in some cases, a standard PAF.
Anyway, some very good post here, (I don't know about the sandwich analogy though) :D
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If you want the classic PAF LP tone, go for Mules. I know what you mean about having too much choice though..
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Going back to the original question about why we need a hotter pickup to emulate jimmy pages normal PAF tone...
Does anyone actually know for sure that pages pickups are PAFs, cos he could have changed them? (just a thought)
Anyway, i know at one point he had a double cream in the bridge, but he had the pickup changed to one with a nickel cover cos i think it got messed up or something...
and remember, if your trying to recreate his tone, he used push pull pots and stuff, so that would have an effect on the sound/tone...
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Going back to the original question about why we need a hotter pickup to emulate jimmy pages normal PAF tone...
Does anyone actually know for sure that pages pickups are PAFs, cos he could have changed them? (just a thought)
Anyway, i know at one point he had a double cream in the bridge, but he had the pickup changed to one with a nickel cover cos i think it got messed up or something...
and remember, if your trying to recreate his tone, he used push pull pots and stuff, so that would have an effect on the sound/tone...
I wouldn't have thought there was much in the way of replacement pickups at the time, but you never know.
I wasn't pointing at Page's tone in particular, just using him as an example, and it's pretty obvious that you can't make a pickup to produce one particular tone from a particular song(I don't think you'd want to emulate the Black Dog tone, it's awful!)
Anyway, once I get my credit cards cleared, I'm going to order a set of Mules...........or Black Dogs..........or SMs..........!!!!!!!!!!
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Going back to the original question about why we need a hotter pickup to emulate jimmy pages normal PAF tone...
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Again, its not that BK are trying to tell you that you need a certain pickup for pages exact sound. Its that led zep were an energetic rock band and the BD is a slightly more powerfull but still PAFy pickup that has that sort of vibe.
Its not meant to be taken literally. If it were Tim would just make a replica of every pickup used by every band he wants to emulate the sound of. They arent that: they have their own character.
If Page played with a black dog he'd sound quite different. Same with every artist connected with the names of every pickup that BK make bar the crawlers and rebel yells, because they are used by the artist.
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OK, but do you think there is definite niche for each variation, or would one type cover all.
You'd have to as a customer that has tried most to all of them. And then you'd get a biased answer because they likely wouldnt have bothered doing that if they werent rather enthuiastic about the different characters of different pickups/guitar sounds.
I have all the BK HB's other than the Painkiller (and I have one of those on order!), so I think I can give my reasons and why I have the different ones.
I initially got a Crawler and 2 P90's for a PRS and an Emerald/Mule set for my LP. When I heard the sounds I was knocked out, and decided to let Tim rewind a couple of pickups that I had (60 Strat and Pat Number PAF). At the same time I asked him to make me a matching bridge PU for the PAF. This gave me a Riff Raff as Tim said the PAF was like the Stormy Monday and the Black Dog (which I had asked about), was not the best match. I fitted them and was again knocked out by the sound. Then I wanted something for my PRS Artist, since I had never really been happy with the amplified tone. I got VHII's after listening to Hayden's PRS.
Basically what happened was everytime I would upgrade a guitar to BK's, others that I liked started to sound bad in comparison.
But not all BK's suit every guitar. I had the worst time trying to find a guitar to suit the Abraxas set. I have had them in 3 guitars and now they sound great (in my old Hamer Sunburst), but they really didn't work in my 53 LP or my chambered one. Black Dogs however suit the 53 LP perfectly, and the Riff Raff/SM combo works great in the chambered LP.
When I wanted pickups for my 335, Tim suggested unpotted Stormy Mondays because they would let the guitar sound through. Sure enough, they are great in it.
When you ask Tim about pickups he will ask you what guitar they are going in and what music you like. Each answer will lead to a particular set of pickups (or if you have ecclectic tastes, a choice of pickups). But within a guitar type even, the sounds will not be the same because of variations in woods and changes to construction over time.
The best example of this has to be 57-60 Les Pauls with HB's. The 57 had a lower output pickup but bigger neck and seems to have found more of a home in US southern rock bands. The 59 is always given as the classic, by then the neck was a little slimmer and the pickups were hotter. The 60 had the slimmest neck and this changed the tone. Even within these there were variations - even the early Les Pauls can vary by about 1 pound in weight, and this makes a difference to the sound and which pickups work. My 53 is one of the lightest Les Pauls I have ever played, my 86 is much heavier. They both suit different types of pickups (the 86 is about to get new ones - a Cold Sweat/Painkiller set, as I am moving the pickups from it to a new guitar).
So the reason that there are so many pickups and variations, is not to make your choice more difficult or to make you buy more. it is to give you the ability to get the sound you want from the guitar you have.
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Just have to add my own tuppence ha'pennies worth into this one...
I love the tone of my Black Dog loaded Tokai LP, it's thick, meaty, phat and full of the tone I just couldn't find in any other mass marketed US made pickups. I chose the Black Dog not on the fact that it was a "warm PAF" type modelled on Page's tones, but on the fact that it was designed to push the mids, something which I'd found lacking in those other pickups.
IMO Black Dog's rule.
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Again, its not that BK are trying to tell you that you need a certain pickup for pages exact sound. Its that led zep were an energetic rock band and the BD is a slightly more powerfull but still PAFy pickup that has that sort of vibe.
Its not meant to be taken literally. If it were Tim would just make a replica of every pickup used by every band he wants to emulate the sound of. They arent that: they have their own character.
Edited due to a misunderstanding :(
I dont see the reason for repeating the same question in this thread, from what MDV and others (including myself) have posted. The differences are noticeable between the pickups, but they reflect the changes that have occured over the years that the PAf has existed (and the happy accidents that have occured in the originals to create some of these variatioons)
If I didn't know any better I would swear that somebody is 'yanking our collective chains' with the original question
You don't have to buy a Black Dog to get an approximation of the Zep tone, you can get similar with a mule. But the mule variations have been voiced to help you get some of the quirks of the artists equipment from an average guitar.
If you are not 'taking the rise' then I ask the following :
What is the classic PAF tone, everybody seems to agree that the following are, Santana, early Clapton, Page, Billy Gibbons, Angus Young Gary Moore & even early Van Halen. Most of them through marshalls but their tones are all very different. Santanna & Angus, both with SGs and PAFs, but they don't sound very similar. Spend some time with your kit trying to get all the PAF sounds and you will probably understand why it makes sense to have several variations.
The Mule will get you the the vast majority of classic PAF sound (whatever that is), but if you feel biased towards a particular tone then surely it makes sense to use something with that particular characteristic.
I can't beleive I actually bothered to reply to this !
Rob...
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Kilby, I'm not arguing with that.
You dont seem to have understood me. I've already said as much as you have there about similar pickups also getting you close to the tone, and different pickups getting pleasingly and imporatntlt (to some) different sounds.
I was commenting where the name came from, and that its not supposed to mean "If you want a page tone you have t get the black dog".
Read before typing, damn you!
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Kilby, I'm not arguing with that.
Read before typing, damn you!
Errrr my quoting went a bit wrong.
I was agreeing with you.
What I was commenting about was the fact that the originator of the thread was ignoring the points being made, and simply asking the same question agaim
A bit like the users in work :
This software dosn't work,
You are using a PC you need to run it on a Mac
But I want to run it on this PC,
It won't work on this machine you need to use a mac or different software
But I want to run this software on this PC,
........
repeat ad infinitum
Now I have to go back and edit my post :(
Rob...
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Oh. OK then.
Go in peace my child
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I can't beleive I actually bothered to reply to this !
And I can't believe that I actually bothered to read yours.
It was a simple question, nobody else had a problem with it. I can't find any instances of me repeating myself ad infinitum either.
Perhaps you should concentrate on showing girls how to use computers, and not waste your oh so precious time on this forum.
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I would suggest re-reading your posts as indeed I had to re-read and revise one of mine, because we don't all manage to convey what we mean correctly the 1st time around.
You asked the same thing 3 times actually,
People including myself have attempted to explain why particuloar pickups exist I apologise for doing so. and will not make the same mistake again.
I will not replay in the manner which I wish to at this point in time.
Bye !
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I will not replay in the manner which I wish to at this point in time.
Never mind, I won't be losing any sleep over it.
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BKP produce 15 different types of humbucker...So from a commercial perspective there's certainly a market
Hm, I think it's more the guitar manufacturers that benefit, what else would give me reason to get 22 guitars: 15 Humbucker,5 single coil and two P-Type sets
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Does anyone actually know for sure that pages pickups are PAFs, cos he could have changed them? (just a thought)
Anyway, i know at one point he had a double cream in the bridge, but he had the pickup changed to one with a nickel cover cos i think it got messed up or something...
and remember, if your trying to recreate his tone, he used push pull pots and stuff, so that would have an effect on the sound/tone...
Exactly what I said - one of his Les Pauls had a hotter bridge pickup in it throughout the Zeppelin days, and the other may have had two other pickups or two PAFs or the same, I'm really not sure.
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BKP produce 15 different types of humbucker...So from a commercial perspective there's certainly a market
Hm, I think it's more the guitar manufacturers that benefit, what else would give me reason to get 22 guitars: 15 Humbucker,5 single coil and two P-Type sets
You have 22 guitars???!?!?!?!?!?
Sup buddy!!!!!! ;)
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Ok, so bottom line. We've established that the pickup names bear little or no relationship to the band/song/artist that they refer to. What would you put into a '59 reissue, to make it sound like a Les Paul should. Old school.
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Well I think the general consensus is that Mules are the best for a classic LP tone. They can do anything, much better than the stock pickups in my Epi and better than my mates stock Gibson imho (then I would say that wouldnt I :lol: ). If you email tim he'll give you a recommendation..
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Ok, so bottom line. We've established that the pickup names bear little or no relationship to the band/song/artist that they refer to. What would you put into a '59 reissue, to make it sound like a Les Paul should. Old school.
Well for the original Les Paul tone, Mules. But you don't have to go Mules just because they are the original pickups for Les Pauls. If you want a slightly more aggressive tone, Black Dogs, and if you want a bright, mid heavy tone, Rebel Yells are awesome and can cover the Mule grounds as well (and I should note this works both ways).
Between those three, it's basically deciding what you play and might be playing soon with them and where you want your tone focused in at. The Rebel Yells are focused in the moderate gain levels and I find they will do it quite well in a Les Paul.
Usually the pickups are named after what they're supposed to sound like rather than being copied from pickups that that the player used. It kind of gives you an idea of what you can expect from them.
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You have 22 guitars???!?!?!?!?!?
Sup buddy!!!!!! ;)
Not YET :)
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I can't beleive I actually bothered to reply to this !
And I can't believe that I actually bothered to read yours.
It was a simple question, nobody else had a problem with it. I can't find any instances of me repeating myself ad infinitum either.
Perhaps you should concentrate on showing girls how to use computers, and not waste your oh so precious time on this forum.
I just LOVE it when ppl. come this this board and ask for help and end up slagging off long standing members and acting/posting like a complete ASS/Lil child.
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I just LOVE it when ppl. come this this board and ask for help and end up slagging off long standing members and acting/posting like a complete ASS/Lil child.
But it's OK for "long standing" members to slag off anyone they like eh?
Sorry, you can think what you like, but I won't be condescended to, or be belittled by anyone, either on a forum or face to face.
For your information, I wasn't asking for help, I was just posing a question in the hope of soliciting some interesting replies, which was the case until someone decided that I may be taking the pee, and starts comparing me to some illiterate idiot at his place of employ.
I assume you were slagging me off as well, but as your post seems to be in some form of juvenile shorthand, I can't fully comprehend it. And why resurrect this thread anyway?
Never mind, I'm sure you, and your "long standing" mates know what it's all about, and that's all that matters......
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never laughed so much since,hmmmm, kindergarden :lol:
Education is a tool to use and be proud of. Maybe read some posts and use the 'search' button and you will see how IS educated and informed.
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We "The Kids are Alright". Never a dull moment, huh?. Greatings from "The Birthplace of the Blues".
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Greetings my Delta friend.
Been away from south for awhile now.
How is the renovation going? Still pretty bleak or are things happening on re-building front now?
Hope all is well there and everyone is getting the support needed.
Least it was a quiet year this year, for a change.
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Thanks Dakine. The recovery is happening very slow. Last weekend I went to the Voodoo fest in NO, and drove around before and after the concerts. The future is bleak, just the magnitude of destruction is so vast and spread, the recovery in those sections is not happening anytime soon. The French Quarter is OK. The city seems to have lost its Mojo somehow, it is starting to make a comeback of sorts.
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Been to NO, infact La,Miss,Ala many times.
The devastation is/was horrific and (not wanting to get political) have to wonder how it got sooo bad. I was working with emergency services (within LEO) at the time myself.
From an engineering point of view you have to wonder wether NO can be saved (viable and economic) with the levy system as is.
Good to know things are progressing though. Never fast enough or with enough resources though, thats the problem.
My thoughts and prayers are with you and ALL the wonderful Southern folks down there. Such friendly and warm people should NOT have to go through that!
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never laughed so much since,hmmmm, kindergarden :lol:
If I made you laugh, then I'm happy too.......
Cheers. :drink:
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I think we can put this arguement behind us then lads.
And agree to disagree :wink:
RorySRV,