Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: everton_fc on November 14, 2006, 12:22:38 PM
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Is it worth upgrading the pickups on a 30 year old instrument - wouldnt the pickups from an original Yamaha SG2000 sound better in some way than spanking new Bare Knuckles?
I use Apache's on my Strat which are lush, but am curious to know how much difference 30 years of life these pickups would have compared to some new BKP - appriciate the fact the old Yamaha pups were probably massed produced, not hand scatter wound etc.
If people do think it's worth upgrading what would you recommend, and do I go for pups with covers? What difference does that make?
Many thanks for your help
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The stock pickups in the Yamaha SG aren't half bad but BKP's will make that guitar come to life beyond your imagination. You'll need some new mounting rings, though.
Here's a pic of my SG400 with crawlers.
(http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/7485/imag0010vo3.th.jpg) (http://img81.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imag0010vo3.jpg)
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Yeah? Crawlers that good?
I guess I'm a little hesitant - if it aint broke doent fix it type of attitude - but you dont now how it will sound until you try - it's like a catch 22!
Any other mid-1970's Yamaha SG players out there who swapped pups for BKP?
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Mid 70s Yamaha SGs are nice
Which model do you have?
The higher spec ones are nice sounding too , but new pickups may indeed give a new twist to an old friend.
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I have an SG1500 - apparently the same as a SG2000 without the push-pull coil tapped pups. COuld be mistaken though. It's a stunning guitar, bags of sustain, bloody heavy!
What are your thoughts on an upgrade (if needed) and what pups to choose? The BKP range is so vast these days. All I would like is a good all rounder pup = lush cleans and equally lush overdrive tones.
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that's gotta be a mule or perhaps a riff raff
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Would be really handy to have a comparison table of some sorts on the BKP site. Kind of like the pickups listed down the left hand side, with character / specs / description across the top....
Pickup Magnet Output Description
Mule Alnico IV DC:8.4K For a sweet etc etc.....
that kind of thing, obviously with more stuff on like sound clips - just thought it would be great to see comparisions at a quick glance.... is there anything like that on here already?
Thanks[/b]
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I beleive a lot of that will be happening when the site update takes place.
But I think the more people ask when the further away the date gets ;)
Rob...
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he he cool,
Oh well, anyway, back to topic - is there an advantage of upgrading mid-1970's Yamaha SG pups? The old yamaha SG's are supposed to be the the dogs bollocks... I'm in a dilemma...
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Abraxis V's are probably the closest to the original Yamaha pups.
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The stock pickups in the Yamaha SG aren't half bad but BKP's will make that guitar come to life beyond your imagination. You'll need some new mounting rings, though.
Here's a pic of my SG400 with crawlers.
(http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/7485/imag0010vo3.th.jpg) (http://img81.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imag0010vo3.jpg)
Do you need to get new mounting rings even if you get them without covers :?:
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The stock Yamaha pickups have three mounting screws. One on the high E side and two on the low E side.
See the picture below.
(http://blog.golfdigest.co.jp/user/zakrello1/img/47/img20060308.jpg)
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Neer installed humbuckers before - is it a bitch, especially replace stock yamaha pups?
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Cool, well I've been doing loads of reesearch reading this forum. Really like the sound of Mules - what is the main difference between Mules and Riff Raff tonally? (sorry if this question has been asked thousands of times) - really appricate the feedback btw, this forum kicks ass. It's like Harmony Central on steroids.
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Really like the sound of Mules - what is the main difference between Mules and Riff Raff tonally?
I'm trying to remember some of the stuff I read when I was thinking about buying my Riff Raff - I believe the Riff Raff is based on the 1960s Gibson "patent no." humbucker, whereas the Mule is more like a warm 1950s PAF.
The Riff Raff is a bit more aggressive, slightly nastier. Think Angus (obviously). It's often described as quite bright and "dry" which worried me a little, but I fitted mine yesterday (bridge model only) and I'm finding it can do some nice warm tones as well, it's not at all harsh. It also sounds great wired in parallel.
I haven't tried Mules, but everyone says they're the ultimate all-rounders.
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Does your SG have a maple cap and mahogany back? Like a DC Les Paul or an Ibanez Artist? If so, Mules will be perfect in that guitar. :)
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I have no idea I'm afraid about the maple cap. I like the idea of the Mule being a good all rounder though. Has anyone else itted a set of Mules into an SG guitar? Also, is there any difference between using pickups with covers on or not? Many thanks
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If it's a late 70s SG-1500, it will have a maple top. It should look similar to the guitar in Ratrod's second picture above, but with chrome hardware and dot markers (I think!). Does that sound right?
Covers are supposed to affect the tone slightly, they reduce the highs and warm up the bass. BKP can compensate for this effect in the winding, but I'm not sure if that's done as standard or if you have to ask :? . In the case of the Mules, I think Tim originally "voiced" them with covers.
All my BK pickups (so far) are covered and they certainly don't lack brightness - I wouldn't worry about covered vs. uncovered except in terms of looks.
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BKP can compensate for this effect in the winding, but I'm not sure if that's done as standard or if you have to ask :?
IIRC that's standard.
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Also, is there any difference between using pickups with covers on or not?
In this case, I don't think so. :) Choose the one that looks better. I prefer covered pickups because of the colour choices (I love camo and raw nickel) and the protection and shielding the covers provide.
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Mules would sound great in a Yamaha SG. It would become a serious LP killer.
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I prefer covered pickups because of the colour choices (I love camo and raw nickel) and the protection and shielding the covers provide.
Ditto (but I'm more conservative, boring old polished chrome or nickel for me).
Also they sit nice and square in the pickup surrounds rather than drifting over to one side like uncovered pickups sometimes do. I know that's a minor detail, but these things matter to me. It's like a mild OCD. Now must go and wash my hands again....
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Have to say I'm definately swayed by a set of Mules - am curious though, how do I know what pole spacing or whatever you call it to get?
Sorry for my lack of knowledge!
Thanks
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You only need to measure the distance between the two E strings over the bridge pickup and choose the spacing (50 or 52 mm) that matches the distance. Spacing on a pickup is the distance between the center of the first and the center of the last polepiece.
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The stock pickups in the Yamaha SG aren't half bad but BKP's will make that guitar come to life beyond your imagination. You'll need some new mounting rings, though.
Here's a pic of my SG400 with crawlers.
(http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/7485/imag0010vo3.th.jpg) (http://img81.imageshack.us/my.php?image=imag0010vo3.jpg)
Do you need to get new mounting rings even if you get them without covers :?:
Can anyone comment on this? I got no idea when it comes to fitting new humbuckers into a guitar - any installation advice, or link to another thread about this issue would be great.
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You'll need 50mm spacing. The Yamaha SG has a very slim neck. The pickup cavities aren't that big either. I doubt a 52mm covered pickup will even fit in there.
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You'll need some new mounting rings, though...
Anyone shed any light on what this means? I'm totally clueless about this. I've made up my mind on getting a set of Mules. Just a bit anxious about installing them...
Thanks
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Mounting rings are the black plastic rectangular "holders" for the pickups. If you've got the three screw mountings (like in the photo earlier) you'll need new mounting rings as BK pickups only have two mounting screws (like a Les Paul or an SG).
By the way, Phill Q is spot on when he talks about the difference between Riff Raffs and Mules. I have both and the Riff Raffs have a flatter 'EQ' (for want of a better word) and respond well to a biting amp to give a nice sharp tone without being brittle. When used clean they can be nice and mellow, and the neck pickup can do a great blues tone. Using the guitar's tone pots you can thicken the sound up nicely. This is why they work so well in SGs.
A Mule has a midrange hump in it's 'EQ' which gives a great smooth tone. With an Alnico IV magnet the tone is really sweet. This is why they work so well in Les Paul's as they smooth of the maple cap a touch and give a big, thick tone without being muddy.
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Cheers for the reply - I do like the sound of the Mules - as I need quite amount of versatility - like the idea of them being a bit smoother than the Riff Raffs - although I almost feel like a heathen for putting Mules in a Yamaha SG!!!! ('cause most people seem to rate the Riff Raff for an SG type) - reckon the Mules will suit my style more...
Any idea where can I get appropriate mounting rings from?
Thanks
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You can get them in the BKP (online) shop.
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Cool, cheers
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Thought I'd say - just purchased a pair of Mules. Thanks for all the responses to questions, really appriciate it.
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You're welcome.
You won't regret your purchase.
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Hi everton and all: am combining this my first post with a bump in a sense.
Everton, have you resolved this at all yet? I ask specifically, as this question is exactly why I just mailed BK, funnily enough.
I too have an old SG2000 of which I'd like a bridge p/up that combines a little better with the gorgeous neck one; bless 'em, mine have also gone a little microphonic.
Until I'd considered BareKnuckles, I was going to go for some Wizards, which have done me so very well for s/c and buckers thus far...yet am all a bit warmed to the idea of a brace of Abraxas, if by name alone!
Ratrod, those look stunning in the SG mate, btw!
I realise asking other axepersons' opinions is a bit like lighting blue touchpaper, which is merely why I'm curious as to how you're progressing.
Do any of you have Abraxas btw? Any idea of how a neck Abraxas would marry with an Emerald bridge.....or shall I just stop being a retentive knobber, plump for Mules and be grateful....?? Thoughts anyone?
Oh, and thanks for a terrific forum all; a real mine!
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Duh,( that'll teach me not to read all of them)..my apologies all.
Am agog to hear your opinion on the Mules.
Thx Ratrod and Twinfan for your really helpful stuff here.
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Do any of you have Abraxas btw? Any idea of how a neck Abraxas would marry with an Emerald bridge.....or shall I just stop being a retentive knobber, plump for Mules and be grateful....??
I have an Abraxas neck pickup (with a Rebel Yell bridge). If you're considering the Abraxas for "obvious" reasons, then yes it gives a great Santana tone. Can't help on the Emerald though, sorry.
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Thanks Philly, very helpful. Am reading avidly the many testimonials of the Crawler too at present, tho' not much on the Abraxas.
(I must say I've just received a reply to the mail I sent Tim, who seemed to both read my mind as well as write a spot-on reply instantaneously...sheesh, these guys redefine Customer Service!)
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Tim and the BKP guys have built up a passionate and loyal fan base because of a superb product and excellent service. The worl is to be assimilated-just a question of time. Welcome to the forum btw.
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Am agog to hear your opinion on the Mules.
Thx Ratrod and Twinfan for your really helpful stuff here.
No problem my friend :D
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Havn't fitted the Mules yet. I pulled out the stock pickups yesterday from the SG1500 - that was quite exciting, especially to see the construction of the SG1500 pups in comparison to the BKP - has to be said, those old yamaha's seem to be very well built. Looks like those guitars had alot of effort put into the design/construction, and I was well chuffed to see that my guitar did infact have the stock pick ups in the guitar as on the underside of the pups was the SG1500 model number printed. Cool. Think I'll keep hold of those bad boys, seeing they are 30 years old - may want to put them back in one day if the old SG range become collectable.
Should have the Mules in on the weekend. waiting for the Mrs and the kid to go "shopping" for a couple of hours so I can tweak my amp settings etc - will feedback with opinions and comparisons to the old stock SG1500 pups. Cool. Seems, by everyone elese opinion, that The Mules are very versatile, a good all rounder which is exactly what I'm looking for - and can't wait to hear them in the SG1500 through my Marshall...
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Everton, I swear this thread has me gripped.
Yes, I also was enthralled by the sheer attention to detail and quality of all the gubbins..and to be sure, hanging onto the stock pups = ohyeah.
I've reread your posts here and am intrigued: if I've got this right, the "normal" pots you mention are more of a signifier of age, than of whether it is a 1500, 2000, etc; in other words, the push-push pots were put on as part of Yamaha's desire to distance themselves from Gibson.
To clarify(I hope): as Gibson took Yamaha on about the "SG" nomenclature, Yam started a few mods so as to increase the sense of differentiation(as if the quality of the Yams wasn't enough): thus, the 1976 SG2000's bits were superseded around '79 by the addition of push-push pots.
Therefore, if one has a low serial numbered babby with untapped(normal, non-pushy) pots, chances are that it's maybe between 76 and 79. At least for a 2000. Yamaha did so many refinements and changes to both it and its predecessors(the 2000 was "merely" an outworking of the earlier 150...er, ..1974??) that it can get very confused.
[Ev, I'm asking the obvious here buddy,.... the neck is a bolt-on, yes?]
Me and my fevered mind; apologies for drifting OT all
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My SG1500 does not have push/pull features - I think that is a standard for the SG1500 where the SG2000 and the SG1000 etc do have the push/pull volume pots. I got the SG1500 for two reasons - 1. It was a bargain that I couldn't refuse, and secondly I didn't want the push/pull feature.
The neck is a "through neck" or whatever you call it - if you look at the back of the guitar in the the light, getting the angle right, you can see the neck travelling through 3/4 the length of the body! Fantastic. The weight of the guitar is something I had to get used to, but the sustain is FANTASTIC! I loved the bridge tone but for me, the neck pickup was what was turning me on. I'm getting really into varying the volume/tone controls for different songs, and wipping over to the bridge when I need to give it some.
I'm really pleased with this guitar. The reson I wanted a Yamaha SG (from the 1970's) is they just seem more "muscular" than a Gibson SG - these guitars have real depth to the body, a solid feel to them. And I think they look cool!! Anyone else comment on an Yamaha SG (1970's style) - especially interested in comments with Yamaha SG's with BKP in them.... Bring on the Mules!!!
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"Malcolm" in YC/DC is currently using a Black SG600S. It's pretty beat up but sounds OK. There are probably a few pics on our site (see my sig).
It'll become his backup guitar when his Malcolm Young II Signature Flame Top Gretsch turns up this week :D
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It'll become his backup guitar when his Malcolm Young II Signature Flame Top Gretsch turns up this week :D
That's cool! I don't think there are any Malcolm signature players on the Gretsch pages forum yet. He's welcome to join.
http://gretschpages.com/forum/
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Just installing my pups now and notice that the pickups are at a slight angle, almost kind of parralell with the angle of the mounting rings. I cant remeber if the stock pups were at an anlge or not as the stock Yamaha mounting rings had two adjuster screws, which I should imagine, was to make the pup more parallell to the strings? Not sure...
Can anyone shed any light on this? Should I be concerned, especially about the bridge pup, that it is an angle, and not flat? I'm totally unsure about this and am starting to beat myself up about it...
Thanks
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The tops of the pickups should be parallel to the mounting rings and also, hopefully, parallel to the strings.
Unless the strings are parallel with the top of the body :?: Which they shouldn't be, as far as I know.
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Yep cool, spot on. the pups are parallel with the mounting rings, and as soon a sI put the strings on it all lined up. Thanks god! Cheers... just need to adjust the heights now. Any tips? Further away the better for tone? Such a learning curve!!!
Thanks
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I'd say between 2mm and 3mm is optimal, but it's personal preference. Tim uses 3mm as a starting point, so try that and see how it sounds :D
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Well I've finally installed the Mules... and gigged with them. I installed them at 4:30pm and was gigging around 7pm - still need to tweak the pickup height on the bridge a little though.
A quick comparison between the stock, late '70's Yamaha SG pups and the Mules:
The stock pickups are really hot. Very hot. Didn't realise HOW hot they were until I put in the Mules. The stock pups I had were great pickups, although the bass was a little mushy and there wasn't alot of clarity when using a fair amount of gain. But they packed a punch, and the neck pickup in particular was great, both clean and overdriven. Also the stock pups had developed a bit of a hum, were quite noisy.
Now the Mules:
All I can say is WOW. Firstly, they are as quiet as a mouse. No background hum or anything. Second - there is so much clarity - the amp settings were the same at first, but you can here all the notes plucked - everything stands out - very clear. The bass is good, the midrange sings and the treble is definately there but it's not the ice-pick in the ear treble - usually, treble is my achilles heal but now the treble seems to be prominent in the mix but softer, almost rounded.
What was good though, which was exactly why I went for Mules, is the variety of applications they can be used. Yesterday I had to do a mix of tunes, some soft, some using a eBow, some rocked out using a wah wah - The Mules excelled themselves in all applications. Still need to adjust the bridge a little to balance the output with the neck - but the neck pup is PERFECT - tone tone tone. Really chuffed.
The whole experience of fitting the pickups was a big learning curve. Never seen a braided pickup set before and the whole process was a little daunting at first, but taking the time, haveing a little patience and a steady hand was the key. At times I thought I f****d my guitar up completely, wishing I hadn't purchased the new pups, if it aint broke dont fix it type of thing - but after hearing them last night, the guitar feels like it's really come to life.
Dont get me wrong, the stock Yamaha SG pups from the late 1970's are damn good, but now the guitar sounds even better. It sounds so professional.
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Yep - you got the BKP bug!
I played my Mule equipped Gordon Smith GS-1 last night through my 4x12 with new Vintage 30 speakers. I was in tone heaven :D
Mules rock. Can't wait to get a set in my LP.
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Excellent stuff! Delighted that you is a happy bunny, and greatly heartened by your success: gigging same day...now that's faith; well done for not fragging the pots there ev(!) Am also quite sobered by your really helpful comments on the mules as I too am pleased with the old un's stock pups, finding that much of the "thinnness" of the bridge disappears by giving it more air. I've found that whereas the stock neck greatly outperforms, say, a burstbucker in terms of that "wooliness" on the lower registers, some boomy bits can hang about.
It sounds like the mules have really brought the bottom end of the neck pup into order whilst also getting the bridge more polite too...really just letting the Yam have a good gallop as it was meant to!
Really encouraging; thanks to you and all for inadvertently helping me along here...a handy aide-memoire for when I take the plunge.
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Well had a chance today to go into a rehearsal room for two hours and fine tune my pickup heights and really crank the amp - all on my own, without a bloody drummer wacking his snare next to my ear drum.
The Mule bridge pickup is so damn good. It's really, just, amazing. Wow! You can get some lovely growls out of it and harmonics etc. But for me, the way it "bites" the chords/lead runs is lovelly. Really nice pickup. The neck is lovelly too, especially on clean settings. When using a fair amount of gain, it's great for lead runs, so smooth.
One thing I did today though was increase my amps midrange - even though the Mule pickups are supposed to have a slight midrange "hump" I found the sound became even better when adding more midrange from the amp. I usually am not a massive fan of midrange but today, adding a little more, the guitar came to life so much more.
Great, anyway - the Mules are really nice - LOVING the bridge pickup!!!!!
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That is the proof of the pudding I suppose in a rehearsal situation_ I share your thoughts on drummers ! Are you gigging? It'll be interesting to hear what you think after a gig.
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Oh yeah, forgot to mention that these pups naturally push my clean setting on my amp to the "breaking point" - fantastic - the sound is so full, I just love that on the edge sound that I never experienced before using a humbucker equipped guitar. Cool.
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OK gang, just to put my money where my mouth is, I'm also going where everton has trodden: presently ordering alnico4 4-wire covered Mules for my late 70s Yammy SG2000. Thanks to all for your practical thoughts, as you all have had a small but perfectly-formed part to play in this lovely guitar's rejuvenation. I'll let you hear the results in late January.
Spock out.