Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: _tom_ on November 21, 2006, 01:24:10 PM
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I've decided I'm probably gonna change the top speaker in my 2x12 to something a bit more "british" sounding. Currently has an eminence legend in the top which is a bit trebbly and I dont think its letting the amps full potential come through. My amp is a GH50L which is pretty bright. I found this clip on HC of a modded Marshall with a V30 loaded cab which sounds pretty good to me:
http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1444424
Now, the top part of my cab is open back (bottom is closed back) and the speakers are front-mounted.
I read something somewhere (probably harmony central again) that the V30 isnt good in front mount as it can rattle a bit and that the Classic Lead is more suitable for front mounting, which makes me lean toward the Classic Lead more. I heard fps_dean's Classic Lead clips which sound great and are also with a british voiced amp.
Just really looking for peoples opinions of the two speakers and if the Classic Lead would sound good for the styles of music I play which is anything from ACDC, Zeppelin style crunch up to Lynch Mob, Accept etc level of gain (like that clip I posted the link to basically).
Cheers for any help!
ps - I know the top bit of my cab is open back, but is changing it to closed back as simple as getting a bit of wood and covering up the hole in the back? If so I'm fine with doing this if need be (no one ever see's the back of the cab anyway!)
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My preference would be Greenbacks- the best crunch sound going.
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Trouble with greenbacks is that they are only 25w, and my head is 50w. I read on the Celestion site that if you have mis-matched speaker wattages (the bottom speaker in my cab is around 100w according to Eminence) then the total power handling is only double the lowest wattage, meaning my cab would handle 50w.. I thought you should always have a bit more than the amps wattage?
How about the G12H? Celestion say "G12H provides a fusion of the Vintage 30 and the Greenback characteristics, producing a thick, warm and syrupy sound while still retaining a tight and focused bottom end." plus its 30w so my cab would handle 60w which feels "safer" to me than a 50w for some reason.
edit - just been listening to Celestions "Tone selector" and whilst not always an accurate representation, the G12H does sound the best out of these 3 speakers in all clips so far. Plus Hunter uses one and gets awesome tone. Is a 60w cab enough for a 50w valve amp though?
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Oh I see, and if you plan to run your amp dimed then even 60 W isn't going to give you enough as I'd like to bet that your Laney when at full tilt is much more than 50W.
Re the G12H never used or heard them so can't comment. I've come to like the V30 after its has been well and truly broke in- I say this as I have one in my Harly and so the speaker never 'saw' more than 6-8 watts or so. I decided to run my Marshall thro it at reasonable levels for a couple of hours and voila, its now really sweet and has lost the hardness to its sound.
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hmm bugger.. I guess I'll email Laney to see what cab wattage they recommend! The G12H sounds really good in the clips aswell.
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100w and 30w is a big difference in one cab. Not sure if that matters or not.
V30s are 60w and would be a closer match.
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True, it does seem a big difference. Although I'm sure you can mis-match speakers wattages as in the article about changing speakers on Celestions site they mix a Greenback with a V30.. not quite the same as a 100w and 30w though.
Choosing a good speaker is harder than choosing the amp in the first place!
edit - just got a email back from Laney (that was bloody quick!) and they said:
"Hi there,
Thanks for your email.
A 60watt cab will be fine with the GH50L 50 watt head.
In fact, a cab should be AT LEAST the rating of the head that you use.
Thanks, "
So a G12H would be safe to use in this cab.. so long as the wattages arent too far apart to cause a problem.
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That might be worth checking with Celestion...
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Yeah I've sent em an email. Asked on a couple of other forums and the general consensus is that it will work with no problems.
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the laney may put out more than 50w, but then the g12h can also handle more than 30w too.
i went with g12h and never regretted my choice.
G
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Cool, thanks.
I may go for the G12H. Would you say its quite bright/trebbly through your setup (whatever it may be..) or is nice and warm with good mids?
I know Hunters sounds good which makes me feel more reassured in my choice, as I'll probably go with a V30 for the bottom speaker aswell.
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I'm running it with various guitars and a Marshall JMP50 2204, which is a generally reasonably bright amp I'd say.
I wouldn't say the speaker was overly bright or trebly at all. Its certinally warm, with nice mids indeed.
In the end I fitted one in a 2x12, with a V30. Compared to the V30 which I paired it with the mids aren't so exaggerated, but they are there thats for sure. I combined it with a V30 because of all the forum/internet discussions about how good they work together, and its true.
I think the mids grind with a nice agression when the speaker is pushed. It can sound kind of old skool too (in a good way), but then its a vintage speaker after all ;)
you can check my old thread:
http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2868&highlight=wizard+g12h
in the end i brought a 2x12 and got a g12h normal edition, i got a deal i couldn't refuse on it. i didn't try the alternatives, but i think it sounds decent.
if i would have kept the 1x12 i would have loaded a classic lead 80 probably.... but i say that now with the benefit of a few months of experience trying stuff out. i'm learning about tone all the time since I joined the BKP forum.
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Sounds perfect then, I think I'll go with the G12H to start with then a V30 to replace the bottom speaker if I feel the need to later on.
Reading your thread, perhaps the Wizard is a better choice as it can handle a bit more power, but I'm guessing the standard G12H in my cab will also work..
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another thing to remember is, eminences are rated quite highly compared to what they actually are- they use a different rating system to celestion.
for example, the emi version of a greenback (the private jack, as far as I'm aware) is rated at 50W, while the celesion version is 25 (or 20 for the heritage one).
Something like that. it's likely, in other words, that if the celestion g12H30 is rated "correctly" at 30 watts, that the legend might be more like 70 W, or conversely if the eminence is rated correctly at 100W, the g12H30 might be more like 50/60 watts (all figures there entirely arbitrary and made up to give you an idea).
I think. From what I hear, anyway.
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not enough people like the G12T-75, i think it's the best speaker for rock, followed by the V30..
I have a 2x12 with 75's and they rock, although i'll be getting a Splawn X Pattern Loaded Cab w/Red Coats later on this year.. muhhahaha
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another thing to remember is, eminences are rated quite highly compared to what they actually are- they use a different rating system to celestion.
for example, the emi version of a greenback (the private jack, as far as I'm aware) is rated at 50W, while the celesion version is 25 (or 20 for the heritage one).
Something like that. it's likely, in other words, that if the celestion g12H30 is rated "correctly" at 30 watts, that the legend might be more like 70 W, or conversely if the eminence is rated correctly at 100W, the g12H30 might be more like 50/60 watts (all figures there entirely arbitrary and made up to give you an idea).
I think. From what I hear, anyway.
I understand what you mean. I'm not sure what do get as I was pretty much set on the G12H after realising hunter uses it (always love his tone!) and the Celestion soundclips, but now I hear about the Weber!
James I was thinking about the G12T-75s but after hearing fps_deans clips I didnt like the sound at all, not very middy and a bit boring sounding to me.
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I'll be emailing weber soon (needless to say, his website has decided to go down at the EXACT moment that I want to email, despite me never needing to email before... :evil: ), if you remind me, I'll let you know how much postage is, and the expected amount of customs. Just in case postage is like £30 or something daft, which'd be 2/3 of the way to getting a classic series celestion.
:drink:
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I did consider a Weber speaker but I dont really like the idea of overseas shipping, especially with a heavy item such as a speaker. I'm probably gonna go with either the G12H or the Wizard.
Although at the place we have band practise, theres a Marshall JCM900 4x12, any ideas what speakers they have in? I'll try that first to see what my Laney sounds like through that.
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I recently replaced all 4 G12H's in my 4x12 with V30s. All I can say is that these made a huge difference to my sound. I now have more bite than I can shake a stick at, and the sound is less muddy/boomy overall.
I like 'em. :)
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You got any of those G12Hs for sale by any chance? :P
Would you say the clip I linked to in the first post is a good representation of the V30s in a british-voiced context? Twinfan seems to think so, I just want as many opinions as possible!
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Although at the place we have band practise, theres a Marshall JCM900 4x12, any ideas what speakers they have in? I'll try that first to see what my Laney sounds like through that.
I reckon it'd be G12-75Ts. They don't have the character of the V30s, they just let the amp tone come through. They're not bland, just transparent.
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not enough people like the G12T-75, i think it's the best speaker for rock, followed by the V30..
I have a 2x12 with 75's and they rock, although i'll be getting a Splawn X Pattern Loaded Cab w/Red Coats later on this year.. muhhahaha
Yes, I have four GT 12-75 speakers in a closed back 'Matamp' cab, and the Bass response knocks your legs from under you , Overall very 'big' sounding.
As my cab was already fitted with the 12-75s, I am unaware of how other Celestions would sound in it though.
ceratinly the power rating of 75 Watts RMS (each) meant I had no fear in driving them hard when I had to.
Thanks for the confirmation James ! :D
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Would you say the clip I linked to in the first post is a good representation of the V30s in a british-voiced context? Twinfan seems to think so, I just want as many opinions as possible!
possibly. is that a different clip to the other one you had up? wasn't the other clip you posted (maybe another thread) a laney clip?
there's a definite push or grunt to the mids which I think is quite characteristic of the v30's that you can hear in that clip- quite aggressive.
and dodgy WASP clip- awesome!
\m/ :twisted: \m/
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Would you say the clip I linked to in the first post is a good representation of the V30s in a british-voiced context? Twinfan seems to think so, I just want as many opinions as possible!
possibly. is that a different clip to the other one you had up? wasn't the other clip you posted (maybe another thread) a laney clip?
there's a definite push or grunt to the mids which I think is quite characteristic of the v30's that you can hear in that clip- quite aggressive.
and dodgy WASP clip- awesome!
\m/ :twisted: \m/
Sorry yeah, its the WASP clip in my first post in this thread. I love the tone in that clip but the Laney is allready quite agressive through my current cab.. so hard to choose speakers I just wanna give up hahaha
The thing that now worries the most about V30s is that I read in a HC review they are no good for front mounting, which my cab is. Also the top bit of my cab is angled which lets you hear more highs if that makes any difference..
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i think mine's rear mounted, but engl front load their v30's into their own cabs... no idea, to be honest.
another thing is, that really aggressive mid push is most obvious at extremely loud volume. i.e. cranked to 10.
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Well I never get to crank to 10, the most I think I'll ever need to go on the master with the laney is 4-5 which is still bloody loud.
On the TDPRI forum, I posted asking about the G12H vs the Wizard and someone who has used both says:
"Well, this is all subjective and opinion....BUT, I'd get the Wizard any and every day over the G12H. And I've loved the G12H's for many years, but Eminence has improved on the concept in my opinion.
The Wizard is a very versatile speaker and perfect for the AC/DC crunch you're looking for. Nice lows like the Celestions, but better articulation and overall tone. Very thick. Very loud. I heard/played through one in an 18watt Marshall combo clone and the tone was amazing. I'll say again...loud. Sounded like 2 12's and not boxy at all like a 1X12 can sound.
Yes, I would definitely say the highs are rolled off....especially compared to an "American" styled speaker or even the British Celestion Blue model. Great mids...really substantial lows, but not muddy. Sounds big. When I was trying to decide on a speaker for my cab, EarCandy described the Red Fang as Cream/early Brit tone and the Wizard as AC/DC type. Since I already had the Legend GB128 they suggested the Red Fang for some balance and upper end chime....said the Wizard would be very similar to the Legend."
Sounds good to me. Now the main thing that I'm concerned about is the volume, loads of reviews say it is very loud, which would mean even more attenuation :( Theres a link someone else posted comparing the two but I'm still awaiting activation to access the forum - http://www.18watt.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=12908
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G12H gets my vote.
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You got any of those G12Hs for sale by any chance? :P
Would you say the clip I linked to in the first post is a good representation of the V30s in a british-voiced context? Twinfan seems to think so, I just want as many opinions as possible!
Yeah, that definitely sounds in the ball-park of my sound. Probably a little bit more gain than I use usually though.
Oh, and I friggin' love W.A.S.P. :D \m/
I made a boo-boo though. They were G12T-75s I took out of my 1960a cab. Not sure what the difference is between those and the G12Hs.
Muttley
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hahah me too, WASP are awesome even if all their songs seem to sound the same :P
I'll have to try out the Marshall cab at the band practise room to see if I like those G12T-75s if thats even what its got.
btw, when people say the V30 has a large mid spike, is that like having all the mid sliders on a graphic eq boosted? Because I hate that tone, it sounds too nasal and weird.
edit - found some comparison clips on the Pro-Guitar site. Think I prefer the G12H to the V30.
Another thing I thought about, was getting the V30 just to try in the top position, then if I dont like it I can put it in the bottom position where it may sound better then buy a G12H or something for the top position in my cab.. I also forgot about the bloody Eminence Governor!! Sometimes I hate having so much choice :lol:
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Eminence The Wizard
I've stuck one in my Peavey Classic 30 instead of the standard speaker (Blue Marvel) and it is excellent! Would recommend checking one out if you can.
Mike
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How much extra volume does it give though? I allready have to attenuate when I want to practise at a sensible level, dont want to really attenuate even more if possible.
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I would have to say about 20% more - at least to my ears - it is LOUD!
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hmm, no good for me then, the current speaker has a 98.3db sensitivity or something, so that will be tonnes louder :(
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btw, when people say the V30 has a large mid spike, is that like having all the mid sliders on a graphic eq boosted? Because I hate that tone, it sounds too nasal and weird.
yeah, kinda. but i thought that's what you liked about the laney clip (and the wasp one)?
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No, they dont exactly sound honky or nasal to me (nothing like it does when I change the EQ as said), but I do like the tone. I think I just worry too much :lol:
I guess like I said earlier I could at least try the V30 in the top first and if its too trebbly for that position, stick it in the bottom or something (sounds dirty :lol: )
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I guess, the thing that might make me tell you to stay away from v30's is that
(a) they're loud
(b) they're aggressive.
From what I read from your posts, that's kind of the opposite of what you want. Or am I wrong?
(nice work in mentioning pro guitar, though, I'd forgotten about that place! I'm checking out the speaker clips now!)
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According to Celestion, V30s have the same db sensitivity as G12H which would make them the same volume, or does the actual wattage rating of the speaker also play a part in overall volume?
Dont get me wrong, I like an agressive sound (I know Slash uses V30s in his cabs and I love his tone) but I'm wondering if its too agressive for a Laney to be able to do something a bit smoother. Then again Marshalls are also bright amps are they not? I hate this :lol:
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v30's are funny. they're very aggressive but the mid spike makes them kind of smooth too, if you know what I mean. problem is, there are too many variables to be able to tell for definite.
For example, i'm running an engl savage se with 6l6's (which are quite rough and aggressive sounding, with scooped mids when they distort), but then I dial in my amp to somewhat compensate for that, normally in smooth mode as well, and then they hit the v30's.
There's a definite v30 characteristic I can hear whenever I hear soundclips, but it's kind of hard to tell how much is from the speaker, if you know what I mean.
grrr.
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edit - just found out professional music tech sell Ashdown cabs, one of which has V30s. They also do the Marshall cabs with Greenbacks in. Thats according to their website anyway. Gonna have to go and try em!
BTW, does anyone know where I can get some grille cloth in this colour - http://www.matamp.co.uk/ROBSC7.htm
Matamp wont sell me it separately, and it looks really nice in a pic I've photoshopped it onto my cab in :(
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I'd point you in the direction of the guy that I bought my speaker from but he appears to have gone out of business. He was really helpful and knew his stuff on speakers. At the time we had a conversation about V30s - personally he thought that they were over-rated since Celestion moved a lot of production to China.
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Yeah I've heard that rumour aswell. On the Earcandy site they say this about the Eminence Governor -"We ship a lot of these, we have found these to really shine on what the vintage 30 used to do, a great Euro sound, a life saver since the 30 moved to china."
Also browsing the EarCandy Cabs site (they review Eminence speakers) and they say the Legend 121 "Is a extremely smooth delivery type of speaker."
So maybe its just the nature of the Laney to be very bright. I need to spend more time with it on Monday really to see what I want to do! Could always try different types of valves to see what that does but then it gets expensive..
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I actually just listened to the V30 clips on the Celestion site... I agree, they would appear rather dissapointing based on these clips alone - not really flattering of celestion.
I guess your confused by 100s of speaker choice at the moment _tom_ ;)
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Yeah, theres just too many different varieties :lol:
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Of the Celestion speakers made in China my favourite is the G12H which seems to have a wider frequency response. I also like the G12M Greenback, but this has a very middley sound without as much top or bottom as a G12H. This can be good in a bright amp, but is probably not what you are looking for. I don't especially like the V30, which can sound harsh in the wrong amp (or even in the right amp!). The G12-75 is fairly bland and in my opion not worth considering.
Many amp manufactures use the V30 because of its higher power rating, (you only need 1 in a 50 W combo and 2 in a 100 W). As Celestion will give a good bulk discount if you use the V30 in your entire amp range you can save even more money.
Regarding the power ratings, if you are using two speakers of the same impedance, then the power output of your amp will be shared equally between you speakers. The power rating of the speaker determines how much power the speaker voice coil can take before failing; it does not determine the "loudness" of the speaker (see below). Most speaker manufactures are quite conservative about their speaker ratings (probably to avoid many failures in use). Additionally most amp manufactures tend to exagerate the power output of their amps (more watts = more sales). There are many "50W" amps using 2 G12Hs, so I wouldn't worry about the power handling of a G12H in your cab.
The apparent loudness of a speaker is determined by its efficiency: a more efficient speaker will produce more accoustic power per watt input. This is always quote in dBs, probably because if it was quoted in percemtage terms you would be shocked. Efficient guitar speakers are in the region of 5% efficient, ie 95% of the energy going into them is wasted as heat. Hi-speakers, where linearity it more important than efficiency are often an order of magnitude or more less efficient than this.
To make a speaker more effcient you can do a number of things including: increasing the magnetic field in the voice coil, reducing the voice coil gap, making the cone and voice coil lighter. As many of these manoueuvres conflict with trying to make a speaker that can handle high power, it is often the case that lower powered speakers have much better efficiency.
Hope this is helpful. If you want to know more about speakers then there is some really good info on Ted Webers site:
http://www.webervst.com/sptalk.html
http://www.webervst.com/spterm.html
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Thanks for that detailed reply! I may go with the G12H eventually, although I'm probably gonna experiment with some JJ preamp valves first. Apparently they're warmer/darker than most so should sound good in the Laney. The stock EL34's are TAD, no idea on peoples opinions of those really :P
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I've been playing with the Laney all morning and decided that I like it best with the EQ boosting the mids a bit and rolling off the high just a bit.
Do V30s (and their clones) have an upper or lower mid spike? I tend to boost the lower mids a bit more on the EQ, makes for a very full sound that isnt muddy or overly bassy :twisted:
I'd prefer to not use the EQ to be honest, as I like to have a simple a setup as possible. Gonna order some JJ preamp valves to see if I can do away with the EQ as apparently they darken the tone..
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I find that the V30s boost the lower mids and smooth off the highs - exactly what you're looking for. This is why they work so well with a lot of modern amps as they tend to be very treble biased. The GH50L isn't too bad on that score as it has a lot of bottom end to thicken the sound up.
If you fancy a trip up to Manchester sometime, you're welcome to bring your Les Paul and try it though my GH50L and V30 equipped 2x12.
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Ah good I was under the assumption that they had lots of high mids for some reason.. I think I might try the Eminence V30 copy in the bottom of my cab then, the bottom speaker is a PA speaker so its pretty flat sounding I'm guessing.
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I find that the V30s boost the lower mids and smooth off the highs - exactly what you're looking for. This is why they work so well with a lot of modern amps as they tend to be very treble biased. The GH50L isn't too bad on that score as it has a lot of bottom end to thicken the sound up.
seconded.
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best Celestion prices I've seen are here... http://www.loudspeaker.co.uk/
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^ ditto.
the fact they include VAT and delivery makes them a lot cheaper than some of the other guys whose prices look competitive on the surface...
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Cheers for the link HTH.
I posted this question on HC and (whilst I've only got 2 replies so far) they seemed to think the G12H30 would be good for what I'm after (slight mid hump and rolled off treble).
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have you considered emailing celestion and eminence?
I haven't actually got round to emailing them myself about what I'm after (big surprise), but judging by the great reply I got from weber, that'd be worth a try.
Or even email the guys you're thinking of buying the speaker off...
some of the HC guys are very set in their ways, IMO- they'll fork out for a boutique head, then refuse to use sxpensive speakers and pickups, etc.
seems a bit retarded to me. kind of like buying an expensive rig and using stagg leads... (which reminds me, I have to upgrade those dodgy stagg patch cables I have :lol: )
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hahah I'm using cheap patch leads aswell between my tuner and wah, because I never got round to buying anything better.
Going to hopefully try out the JCM900 cab later on at band practise. No idea what speakers it has :P
When I emailed eminence they said this about the Governor:
"The Governor is definitely a classic British voiced speaker. It is our version of a Celestion Vintage 30. Many people have claimed it has a smoother top end and alittle more bottom end (not overwhelming) than the Vintage 30. It definitely fits your style of music, in my opinion."
Their description sounds really good to me as I think I'd like the sound of a V30.. I just need to decide whether this would sound better in the top or bottom of my cab :lol:
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^ cool.
At least I know to avoid that one when I get round to emailing...
:lol:
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I decided to order a G12H from Appian after being recommended it over on HC aswell - £50 including next day overnight postage, you cant beat that!
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Nice one - good price too! Let us know how you get on.
I'm picking up my Vintage 30s on Saturday morning. I'll get them fitted by lunchtime and crank up the Klipp :twisted:
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^ ^ good work tom! Let us know how it sounds. I just need to order that private jack...
:drink:
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I'm guessing it'll need some time to break in first, so I'm not really expecting it to sound amazing as soon as its installed. Looking forward to getting it though, I just hope they bring it when I'm at home tomorrow and not when I'm at school.
Now I just need to order some Laney-colour grille cloth :twisted:
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Well, first impression - less bass than the PA speaker (probably to be expected though) but it seems less trebbly which is nice :) I'm gonna try swapping the speakers round once I've given it a chance to break in a bit so it doesnt have any harsh frequencies when its loaded in the top of the cab. I'm still considering getting a V30 for the bottom of the cab as I hear it goes well with a G12H in a 2x12.
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Enjoy :)
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hmm I've been playing more today and find that with this speaker there seems to be a sort of fizzy/fuzzy high end that wont go away. Is this just the nature of new speakers? How long would it take for it to go away? Its quite annoying and a bit disappointing really :(
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Could just be the new speaker settling in? Did you follow the break-in procedure on the Celestion website?
I don't remember my pair of V30s being like that...
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Yeah I followed the break in thing and it still sounds the same to me after that :cry:
Gonna try it again in the bottom part of the cab to see what its like there now its been "broken in" by Celestions definition.
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Have you tried tweaking the amp settings? It will sound different with the new speaker obviously, so it may need tweaking. Maybe try cutting down the bass and mids a touch to not push the speaker as hard?
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Yeah I've tried those kinda things but the fizzy top end remains. I think I'll keep at it for another week or two then if I still dont get on with it I'll probably have to sell it on and try something else.
edit - asked on HC about break-in time and someone said they seem to take longer to break in and get rid of the buzziness than most speakers for some reason. I've been playing for a few hours with it cranked and the cab facing the wall to block off some of the volume so it doesnt hurt my ears :lol: I'll do this as often as possible to hopefully.
Oh and I've spotted a pair of V30s that look like they'll go for fairly cheap on Ebay. Should I go for em?
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i saw those - i'd nab em if they were 16 ohm :(
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Yeah I'm thinkin about it, theyre only £27 at the minute!
I just plugged in to my amp again and it sounds not so fizzy any more. Dunno if its just my ears getting used to it or they had time to settle in a bit but it sounded much better than earlier :D
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I had some G12H's from new and they do take a few weeks to settle in - especially the mids. There's no substitute to shear cranked volume - just play them for a while. If you're just playing in the house it'll take MUCH longer.
:twisted:
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Yeah, I dont have neighbours on the side of the house my amps at though so I point it that way and crank (only when I have the house to myself though)
:twisted:
GAHH! I just read someones reply on HC, they said their G12H's took about 50 bloody hours to break in nicely! :lol:
another edit - was playing today (cranked at 9:30, hope I didnt piss anyone off :lol: ) and it allready seems to have smoothed out a bit, sounded really nice, best tone I've had so far is this setup!
The pair of V30s on ebay sold for £91 in the end which is funny, as including postage they were £3 more than buying a new set with overnight shipping from Appian!