Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum

Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: everton_fc on November 25, 2006, 04:18:06 PM

Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: everton_fc on November 25, 2006, 04:18:06 PM
Been playing with my amp controls lately and found reducing the input gain and increasing the master volume has a lush tone - but much louder (obviously) which is a bit of a pain as I dont want to kill the fron row of people at gigs... anyone else have this problem? If so how did you get around it? Playing through a 50W combo...

Thanks
Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: _tom_ on November 25, 2006, 04:27:13 PM
Hotplate works well for that although you cant take off too much volume without killing the dynamics and nice tone. I actually like a mixture of pre and power amp distortion, with my Laney at least.
Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: dave_mc on November 25, 2006, 04:35:56 PM
yeah, a mixture is good. for anything modern (and by modern I mean 80's or later), for the shreddy solos at least, you need a little pre-amp dirt to help the pinch harmonics etc. come out.
Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: screamingdaisy on November 25, 2006, 05:21:38 PM
There's a reason I'm using 30w combos.....though they're pretty loud as well.

If you're worried about the audience (and the soundman) tilt your amp so it's pointing more up than out or turn it so that it's facing the side or back of the stage.

Another popular option is putting a plexiglas sheild a foot or two in front of the amp.
Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: Davey on November 25, 2006, 05:31:12 PM
i havent got a problem with the tone i'm getting..

got the gain at 8 and volume at 2 and i'm loving it...

for kicks i put it @ 7 .. the cats are still nowhere to be found lol
Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: TwilightOdyssey on November 25, 2006, 05:49:35 PM
Power amp distortion = overrated! PDT_008
Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: Jonesy on November 25, 2006, 05:52:42 PM
you cant use a hotplate witha combo though can you
Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: TwilightOdyssey on November 25, 2006, 05:54:11 PM
Quote from: Jonesy
you cant use a hotplate witha combo though can you

Why not??!
Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: Neemo on November 25, 2006, 07:26:29 PM
Quote from: TwilightOdyssey
Power amp distortion = overrated! PDT_008


I'll second that!
Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: Joe Dorcia on November 25, 2006, 07:49:55 PM
Quote from: TwilightOdyssey
Power amp distortion = overrated! PDT_008


+ 1 here ben, max out the gain and let it rip, squeal and be just down right evil  :twisted:
Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: screamingdaisy on November 25, 2006, 10:16:20 PM
Quote from: TwilightOdyssey
Power amp distortion = overrated! PDT_008


While I don't think it's overrated I do think that some people put entirely too much emphasis on it without thinking about the 'whole product'.
Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: Skybone on November 25, 2006, 11:51:09 PM
Power amp distortion = The mutt's nuts x10

efc speaks the truth, low/mid gain & max volume gets the best results.
Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: Joe Dorcia on November 25, 2006, 11:54:54 PM
Quote from: Skybone
Power amp distortion = The mutt's nuts x10

efc speaks the truth, low/mid gain & max volume gets the best results.


It all depends on the sound you want, i love preamp distortion, over the top gain that screams. and preamp distortion does that. Power amp will add more hamronics and depth to your sound and tends towads a fuller, bigger sound. In generalities any, but then again, play in an arena/stadium and max out the pre and power amp  :twisted:  i would fooookin love to with my VH100
Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: Skybone on November 26, 2006, 09:23:07 AM
OK, slight amendment...

Master Vol on max + attenuator = Power Valve Distortion = The mutt's nuts x10 ;)  :twisted:
Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: indysmith on November 26, 2006, 01:44:27 PM
Quote from: TwilightOdyssey
Quote from: Jonesy
you cant use a hotplate witha combo though can you

Why not??!

Works for me :P
Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: HTH AMPS on November 26, 2006, 02:08:28 PM
what few people realise is the effect that the speakers have on your tone when driven hard - that tone you get with the amp cranked is a sum of the speakers being driven hard AND the whole amp distorting.  An oversimplification, but it's not 'just' about overdriving the output stage.

 :twisted:
Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: dave_mc on November 26, 2006, 03:34:32 PM
Quote from: HEAVIER THAN HELL
what few people realise is the effect that the speakers have on your tone when driven hard - that tone you get with the amp cranked is a sum of the speakers being driven hard AND the whole amp distorting.  An oversimplification, but it's not 'just' about overdriving the output stage.

 :twisted:


seconded. the difference in tone between my engl maxxed out and my valve junior through my 4 vintage 30's is startling!
Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: Davey on November 26, 2006, 04:09:21 PM
Quote from: HEAVIER THAN HELL
what few people realise is the effect that the speakers have on your tone when driven hard - that tone you get with the amp cranked is a sum of the speakers being driven hard AND the whole amp distorting.  An oversimplification, but it's not 'just' about overdriving the output stage.

 :twisted:

thirded
Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: screamingdaisy on November 26, 2006, 05:02:21 PM
Quote from: HEAVIER THAN HELL
what few people realise is the effect that the speakers have on your tone when driven hard - that tone you get with the amp cranked is a sum of the speakers being driven hard AND the whole amp distorting.  An oversimplification, but it's not 'just' about overdriving the output stage.

 :twisted:


In some ways this is just as important as the amp itself.

I don't use much in the way of gain anymore as I've found that sheer sound pressure level usually trumps gain in terms of achieving 'heavy'.

Me = Orange amp, gain 3, master volume 10 -> 6x Vintage 30s.
Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: Davey on November 26, 2006, 06:18:11 PM
it's as ben said

50% amp

50% pickups

50% cab

50% your fingers
Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: Jonesy on November 27, 2006, 07:28:13 PM
Quote
Jonesy wrote:
you cant use a hotplate witha combo though can you

Why not??!


I thought you had to place them between a head and the cab...quess not...thats amazing...im getting one :P
Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: blue on November 27, 2006, 08:54:20 PM
as long as there's a jack output from the back of the amp to the speaker, it's no problem.  it's the same as a head and cab, just the head happens to be mounted in the same enclosure as the speaker.  only works with valve power amps mind, plugging it into a solid state power amp will potentially destroy both the amp and the attenuator. (i have no idea why, it's just what i've been warned about)
Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: Joe Dorcia on November 29, 2006, 10:49:54 AM
Quote from: Davey
it's as ben said

50% amp

50% pickups

50% cab

50% your fingers


200% tone. I LOVE IT!
Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: stuckin93 on December 01, 2006, 09:42:49 PM
remember though that you can only use attenuators on amps with a valve power section

i use a hot plate & the difference in sound is massive even at fairly low volumes.
Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: OD-Black_Fire on December 01, 2006, 09:56:03 PM
I don't think poweramp distortion is overated, but preamp and speaker distortion are underated.  I like the RIP YOUR FACE OFF from the preamp, the I AM SO BIG I EAT EMO FOR BREAKFACE from the power amp, and the IM BANGING HARDER THAN YOUR SLUT WIFE from the speakers.  :D
Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: everton_fc on January 04, 2007, 01:45:43 PM
Am tempted to get a Hotplate - but is the volume difference actually that reduced? Would love to play with the amps volume cranked on 10 all the time... so does the Hotplate allow me to do this at reasonable volumes?

Thanks
Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: gwEm on January 04, 2007, 06:29:43 PM
i guess power amp distortion is overrated by some people... a little at least is needed i think. decent preamp distortion and EQ can make up for alot. i have a 50w amp, but dont feel the need for a hotplate at very loud bedroom levels.

agreed that speaker distortion is certinally underrated.
Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: BigK on January 04, 2007, 09:39:27 PM
Yeah sorry to hijack but how much volume difference can you get with an attenuator/hotplate? cause im currently saving to get an engl powerball or fireball (cant diecide at the mo) and i was thinking about getting and attenuator at the same time so i dont kill the neighbors/housemates.
Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: fps_dean on January 05, 2007, 02:58:19 AM
Quote from: dave_mc
yeah, a mixture is good. for anything modern (and by modern I mean 80's or later), for the shreddy solos at least, you need a little pre-amp dirt to help the pinch harmonics etc. come out.


Preamp distortion has a harsher more compressed sound as well which you will need to pull of some tones.

Me personally I try to get as much power side distortion as my ears and neighbors can stand.
Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: Neemo on January 05, 2007, 08:14:59 AM
I play mostly metal and like a tight sound no matter what I'm playing. I like fast thrashy riffs and the last thing you need is power tube saturation. I use a VHT 2/90/2 power amp to minimize the power tube distortion, it may work for rock but definately not for metal. Notes will turn into a mush and fast riffs sound like static noise pollution. So preamp distortion for me TYVM.
Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: everton_fc on January 05, 2007, 08:52:57 AM
Anyone got any opinions on the Hotplate? Am wanting to run flat out without destroying my eardrums and getting banned from ever playing live again...

Does the hotplate actually reduce the volume levels that much?

Thanks
Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: markofled on January 05, 2007, 05:21:51 PM
Yes best bit of kit i ever bought I can run my gh50l with volume and gain both full on IF I WANTED TO and still play at bedroom level. Gives me so must more control!
Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: stuckin93 on January 05, 2007, 06:09:47 PM
+1 ^

they work a treat 8) - bit pricey though!   :(
Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: everton_fc on January 05, 2007, 09:24:16 PM
Quote from: markofled
Yes best bit of kit i ever bought I can run my gh50l with volume and gain both full on IF I WANTED TO and still play at bedroom level. Gives me so must more control!


Reckon that's just sold it to me dude. Well next question is, which one do I get? Am running a 2x12" 50W combo - the speaker selector on the back of the amp is set to 8ohms - does that mean I need an 8ohm Hotplate or 16ohm Hotplate (2x8ohm speakers)? The whole speaker impedance thing does my head in...

Thanks
Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: fps_dean on January 06, 2007, 05:29:49 AM
Quote from: HEAVIER THAN HELL
what few people realise is the effect that the speakers have on your tone when driven hard - that tone you get with the amp cranked is a sum of the speakers being driven hard AND the whole amp distorting.  An oversimplification, but it's not 'just' about overdriving the output stage.

 :twisted:


This is very true...
Title: Pre vs Power Distortion
Post by: fps_dean on January 06, 2007, 05:30:46 AM
Quote from: Neemo
I play mostly metal and like a tight sound no matter what I'm playing. I like fast thrashy riffs and the last thing you need is power tube saturation. I use a VHT 2/90/2 power amp to minimize the power tube distortion, it may work for rock but definately not for metal. Notes will turn into a mush and fast riffs sound like static noise pollution. So preamp distortion for me TYVM.


That's when you either use 6L6s, 6550s, KT88s or don't turn it up to 10.