Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Crazy_Joe on December 19, 2006, 04:35:39 PM
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I havn't listened to it for a while but i just came back to it today, and it has such a HEAVY guitar tone it's unbelievable!!
Can someone tell me what pickups they used, and also what amps (though i'm guessing EMGs and Mesa Boogies)
What would be the best pickup for this heavyness? (probs ceramic warpig)
I pretty much know the answers to all these questions but just need to make sure, because if they used EMG's surely a Miracle Man would do it just aswel as a C. Warpig?
This is probably my last pickup question ever as after soon after Xmas i will be BKPing one of my axes (most likely Explorer).
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emg's as far as pickups go.
a mesa MarkIV will get you the closest to the black tone as possible. othervise, you need the recording rig.. have someone play all the overdubs, multiple other tracks, etc etc
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That album has some much tracking on there the gear list is bloody endless but i know for sure they used
Mesa Mark IIc+
Ada MP-1
EMG 81's
Mesa Mark IV
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So in terms of BKPs, i have 2 options really. C Warpig and Miracle Man, most people say MM is similar to EMG 81, so that would be the solution. But then there is people like Dakine who knows his stuff (and who also got the suggestion from Tim) who say C. Warpig for Metallica chug.
Hmmm....
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Good choice, i'd rate the black album as having the best production of any metal album, is just a shame they went downhill from there. If you can find a copy of the first "a year and a half in the life of..." video (the one where they are in the studio) it shows just how much work went into getting the guitar parts just right. There's a lot of layers to the rhythm tracks using different guitars, amps and settings that would be hard to detect without seeing how it was done. When it comes to actual gear thats involved it's much the same situation as with the "justice..." album. They really put a lot of work into using everything they could lay their hands on, experimenting with mic placement etc. I don't know what BKP's would be best but I do think Kirk Hammet's main guitars had EMG 81's and 89's in them and I believe he mostly used the Mesa Mk IV but with quite a lot of rack gear.
Damn, I'm gonna have to go dig that album out now! :lol:
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Yeah i really like the 'Justice' tone too, so heavy!!
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As I understand it a lot of the rhythm was double tracked with amps through a mountian of cabs that were heavily dampened with thick blankets and foam. The open Ds in the sad but true riff for example.
2 -2 2 - 5p0 1p0 -----
0 -0 0 ------------- 3p0
the first is non-PM, the second two are palm muted as we all know, but also doubled with un-PM'd guitars through the blankets and sh!t.
You really cant replicate it properly at home :(
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You really cant replicate it properly at home :(
I would doubt even most professional engineers, producers and musicians could in a fully equiped studio could pull it off either. I've never heard anyone pull off anything to an equal standard, is all IMO tho. :wink:
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Yeah i really like the 'Justice' tone too, so heavy!!
I love everything metallica did up until re-load, that album was just so dire and they've just not recovered since. :(
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yea.... jason was allowed to write a song
LOL
i keed, i keed haha...
it's got some cool songs.
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Haha, yeah after the black album it just sucked pretty much.
Though i liked the S & M album.
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As I understand it a lot of the rhythm was double tracked with amps through a mountian of cabs that were heavily dampened with thick blankets and foam. The open Ds in the sad but true riff for example.
2 -2 2 - 5p0 1p0 -----
0 -0 0 ------------- 3p0
the first is non-PM, the second two are palm muted as we all know, but also doubled with un-PM'd guitars through the blankets and sh!t.
You really cant replicate it properly at home :(
you don't have blankets? :cry:
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Steady on, fubar,lets not deify it!
By blankets I mean thick, heavy dense blankets, plus foam walls about a foot thick (newsted also played behind some to cut out his pick sound, he hits the strings so hard) and the crucial mountian of cabs :twisted:
Edit: Put it this way: the cab mountain, inc foam walls and blankets wouldnt fit in any room of your house. It was about 10 feet tall.
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I don't want the EXACT tone, i just want something along the lines of that, something that sounds heavy, just heavy.
What is the best bridge pickup for this? (going into an all mahogany explorer)
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:cry:
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Mesa Mark IV all the way. PLayed one last summer in a guitar shop and those things bleed 'Tallica. Great cleans too.
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Steady on, fubar,lets not deify it!
I can't think of much better to worship! :lol:
It's not deification but it is a work of genius on the part of both the band and Bob Rock, the attention to detail is phenominal! Is the sort of thing you can only do if the record company are prepared to let you spend years in the studio at a time tho.
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Justice sounds beter anyway.....
The black album's just to clean for my liking, there's no grit in their. To my ears anyway.
1 Second into the black album and Metallica were dead IMO. There's been two good albums after it, but they're by a different band.
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Main amp would have been a MK3 Boogie - Mk 4 was newer than that
Main rhythm guitar was a white ESP explorer (may be the one with the "Kill Bon Jovi" sticker....amongst others
Also used telecasters and Gretsches too - very layered sound even if you cant hear it
I would use the Explorer and fit either a Miracle Man or a Ceramic Warpig (my choice is Miracle Man)
(http://www.metallicaworld.co.uk/images/equipment/favoriteesp.gif)
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The ceramic warpig and MM are the best BKs for a metallica tone, but, lets face it, they used EMGs, and 'that' EMG sound is ALL OVER the black album tone.
If you have the Mesa (MkIV or dual/tripple rec will get you there) then you should get an 81/60 combo.
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EMG won't have the quality, in build and sound, and remember i said i don't want to copy it, i want something similar, i also don't want a fat ass battery pack shoved into my nicely crafted guitar!
But i will get that Mesa one day...
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I agree with MDV - if you want Metallica's tone (or close), then go with EMGs, they're a specific sort of tone but it just works for heavy stuff. I agree that the 60 in the neck is best too but I'm a bigger fan of the 85 in the bridge.
As for BKPs to get that tone, I'd say either MM or WP (I'd go for a ceramic WP).
:twisted:
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Well if you dont want to nail it, but close with a BK I'd get a miracle man, overwound to something like 20k (the stock one just doesnt have that level of gain or compression).
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The gist of it is;
Boogie Mark IIC+
Boogie Mark IIC+ slaved into a Marshall JMP head
Boogie Mark IV
Roland JC-120 (clean tones)
Aphex Parametric E.Q.
Various ESP & Gibson Explorers (EMG 60/81)
Telecaster
Gretch White Falcan
SG
He also used some sort of multi-effect at the time, but I can't remember which one.
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emgs going to a Mark IV or a Mark IIC+
a good EQ for nailing the perfect "scoopness"
some V30s
and a roland JC 120
-------NOTE: don't even bother getting Kirk's lead sound
thats the "heart" of the Justice (mainly IIC+) and Black album tones (closer to a mark IV).
if you want to use other pickups use:
ceramic Warpigs to completly nail the Metallica chug
miracle man for a more "master of puppets" and "ride th lightning" tone.
and the IIC+ is the CORE tone of all the Metallica tone from master of puppets to black album.
the funny thing is that the IIC+ can also nail ride the lightning tones if set properly with Miracle Man on the bridge 8)
reccomended: Mark III with the right stripe and some old boogie preamps that sound alike to the IIC+ (studio something... just look around and you will find the info)
if recording... just make SHURE you quadruple track the rythm parts.
all this tested by me in real life.
PS: green tortex .88 for nailing it even more...
hope this helps 8)
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haha cheers, that pickup to album thing you did just made it clearer as to what i need for each era. Though now it is even harder to choose between the MM and CW!
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haha cheers, that pickup to album thing you did just made it clearer as to what i need for each era. Though now it is even harder to choose between the MM and CW!
for me... the Miracle Man wil give you a more "vintage" Metallica Tone and the Ceramic Warpig will nail all the "Modern" sounding Metallica (considering all this from Ride to Black album)
I prefer the Miracle Man. Because it can give you power, pinches, chugness etc... without being STUPIDLY powerful.
all the Ceramic Warpigs I've heard sound WAY to bassy and powerfull. They eat EMGs with no mercy :shock: !!
but I think that the Ceramic Warpig is just TOO much considering Metallica was an 80s thrash band.
Miracle Man gets you alot more range of the Metallica sounds and early albums because it isn't stupidly powerfull and overwhelming.
but I'm sure a Ceramic Warpig would sound CRUSHING while playing MASTER OF PUPPETS :twisted: !!!!
think about it like this...
Miracle Man = Vintage Metallica with more THRASH grind feel
Ceramic Warpig = Modern Metallica with more HEAVY chug feel
but in my opinion the Miracle Man can give you both if set right
:)
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It seems like the Miracle Man is going to be more versatile than the Warpig, and i was thinking it might be a bit too bassy. DO you know the specs of the Miracle Man neck? I don't think it's ceramic and i can't remember the dc.
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It seems like the Miracle Man is going to be more versatile than the Warpig, and i was thinking it might be a bit too bassy. DO you know the specs of the Miracle Man neck? I don't think it's ceramic and i can't remember the dc.
sorry... just own a Miracle Man on the Bridge :(
I'm sure someone with a Miracle Man set will pop-up and give you the answer
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I would not go for a MM neck if you want to do the Hetfield thing
You need something that will be a bit like a EMG60 which is like a mini humbucker (think Firebird or LP Deluxe).
Maybe a Cold Sweat neck or something - even something with a P90 tone like an MQ
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You need something that will be a bit like a EMG60 which is like a mini humbucker (think Firebird or LP Deluxe).
Maybe a Cold Sweat neck or something - even something with a P90 tone like an MQ
Yeah, the 60 is very bright. I had one years ago and even in the neck position it was brighter than either an 81 or 89 in the bridge. That's the way Hetfield likes it, I suppose.
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EMG loaded Explorers in a Mesa Mk IV seem to be dominant. Kirk used a couple of Marshalls here and there. He used his signatures and a Randy Rhoads. If I remember correctly, some Dumble equippement was used as well.
Loads of production on that album. On Nothing Else Matters up to 5 guitars are used. The White Falcon was through an old Fender Supro, I believe.
I still love that album.
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As far as getting close to Black album tone goes, until recently I had a set of alnico WPs in an ESP M302 (strat style, similar to one of Kirk's sig ESPs), and it nailed the sound pretty close after a little tweaking of the amp.
The alnico WPs are also (in my opinion, which is by no means expert :wink: ), very versatile in terms of what else you can do with them i.e they coil tap down nicely etc. Having not used ceramic ones, I'm not sure if the same applies, but I'll bet someone does know and will hopefully say so.
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So, nobody's going to mention Kirk used a CAE 3+ with a VHT 2150 just like Marty Friedman and Dave Mustaine during the same period.
Talk to HC Forumite 4NKAM. He is the Monty Jay guy who knows everythign about Metallica's gear. He has pics of every live and studio rig they've ever used
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I was just about to mention Monty-Jay.
If I could remember the link to his site then I'd post it, you should be able to google it though.
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The Metallica part of his website is frozen again or else I would've posted it a few days ago.