Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => The Dressing Room => Topic started by: Afghan Dave on December 21, 2006, 06:42:25 PM
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(http://www.no2id.net/images/NO2ID_logo-20060416.png)
Hi all,
I've been watching your comments on the "Jack the ripper" thread and I thought that you might be interested and have some thoughts or questions regarding my latest project.
I've just been put in charge of the marketing and communications efforts for the NO2ID campaign.
This is a cause that I feel constitutes one of the LAST battlegrounds for defending the civil liberties we enjoy in the UK. (Americans and EU members don't believe this doesn't concern you - Britain is a test case - YOU WILL BE NEXT)
Over the next few months the UK Govt will be rolling out the National Identity Register which will bring your every move into the political sphere of influence.
It WILL NOT defeat terrorists or identity fraud but IT WILL make your life, your finances and your medical records the business of unelected civil servants and database administrators.
I hope you take the time to visit the campaign site http://www.no2id.com and although it may at the moment seem very wordy and intellectual - please just have a look and consider how this is system is going to impact on you.
I know there are a number of young guys on this board and if you apply for a first time passport you may be called for interview/interrogation as of March 2007 - The rest of us have till 2008.
If you disagree with this fundamental change in your freedom we can still stop it.
I look forward to hearing your views.
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I don't like the idea of a random person being able to look at files of what I buy, look like, live, work and where I travel. It's like i'm constantly being watched and kept eye on. I have nothing to hide but I want to be able to live my life without that.
I also hear that these cards are going to be easier to f*ck with than chip and pin cards.
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The cards are really only a "straw man" for distracting from the real issue - the National Identity Register.
Many countries have simple ID cards and as such they are not the threat that should scare law abiding citizens.
The National Identity Register is the hidden motivation behind all the Govt plans and the more people like yourselves hear about it, the more they object.
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I am with you on this Dave. I have been banging on about this for ages.
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Great to hear 38th. Keep banging on about it!
We CAN stop this from happening... With any luck you should see NO2ID on the news/in the papers ASAP.
Anything that we can do will be useless without YOUR support!
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I've registered :D
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Just to show that great heavy metal isn't "all that far" from potential reality these lyrics just about hit the nail on the head...
You think youve private lives
Think nothing of the kind
There is no true escape
Im watching all the time....
Always in focus
You cant feel my stare
I zoom into you
You dont know Im there
I take a pride in probing all your secret moves
My tearless retina takes pictures that can prove....
I feed upon your every thought
And so my power grows....
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Just to show that great heavy metal isn't "all that far" from potential reality these lyrics just about hit the nail on the head...
You think youve private lives
Think nothing of the kind
There is no true escape
Im watching all the time....
Always in focus
You cant feel my stare
I zoom into you
You dont know Im there
I take a pride in probing all your secret moves
My tearless retina takes pictures that can prove....
I feed upon your every thought
And so my power grows....
Electric Eye ......Judas priest!!
The ID cards and register can make it easier for some to steal your identity (if they have the technology)
Starting to sound like Orwells "1984"
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Sadly it could start in March 07...
You need to know that it doesn't have to!
If anybody needs any more information just post or PM me and I will do my best to help.
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i too have been talking about this, my mother in particular is all for id cards, cctv and anything else. she has totally swallowed the "if you have nothing to hide..." spiel. big brother is already here, and is using fear and intimidation to worm his way further and further into all our lives.
it's not, for example, in the government's interests to stamp out crime or terrorism, as both are great excuses for every new infringement on our civil liberties.
ironic though that you have to givr your name and address to register your protest against it :roll:
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i read an article in an old issue of Autocar (2003?) about ID type stuff.
Councils and companies used GPS locators in vehicles sat navs to track their staff!! Resulted in sackings, speeding fines, even a marriage breakup (naughty wife visiting her lover instead of working)
Also turns out that alot of cars (especially press ones) come with built in GPS tracking, which monitors your speed and GPS co-ordinates and texts them to a database for the manufacturers to keep an eye on the car (and you)
That was before sat navs really took off....
Its all getting out of hand(well, governments are moving in to control us more).. next it will be "John Spartan you have been fined 5 credits for section 12 violation" everytime you call someone a shitebag! :(
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:D Yep i`m another thats opposed to the id card.
There going to be very easy to copy & fraud. Since they`ve inforced chip & pin credit/debit card fraud has trebled ! How ? they told us it would make cards harder to fraud !
:D 8)
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I find it a very emotive and important subject and if this was not a guitar pickup forum I would rant for hours upon unelected organisations having way too much control over their subjects. Ruling by real or exagerated fears is a very important subject and people need to think and take heed. Use your vote whilst you still can, in a very short time, voting in the UK and other European countries will cease to matter.
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Very glad to see all the comments here are anti-ID cards. Makes a change for us all to agree on something.
Quite apart from the obvious civil liberties issues which have already been mentioned, I find the claims about prevention of terrorism and identity theft totally specious and patronising. It reminds me of those un-skippable anti-piracy ads on (legitimately-bought!) DVDs - "DVD piracy is funding drug dealing and terrorism". Yeah right. Frighten us into submission.
All of the July 7 bombers would, as far as I know, have qualified for legit British ID cards. How exactly would ID cards have stopped them?
Another point which has always bothered me is that if you make ID cards compulsory, surely you must also make not carrying one some kind of offence? So innocent citizens are "criminalised" and even more police time is wasted...
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I don't see the point in ID cards, simply because they will not achieve anything. People don't realise that we are already in a big brother society already.
Englands fu*ked anyway, just look at the state of affairs these days compared to how we used to be.
People need to think about global warming, in my opinion this is the most important thing happening at the moment yet it is amazing how oblivious most people are.
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I don't want ID cards either. I haven't got anything to hide but we never needed them before so what are they up to saying we need them now? It's just more bureaucracy and meddling in peoples lives and we need to get away from that not come up with plans for more. This government are f*cked anyway. They have never been so unpopular, so hopefully when they get elected out all this will get forgotten about and the next government will hopefully concentrate on more important matters and there are so many that get over looked in favour of nonsense.
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Frankly if it meant there were less schoolkids in pubs I'd tell the government just about anything they wanted to know about me. Unless I was a convicted child molestor on the run from the police or something, then I might be a bit more inclined to preserve my 'civil liberties'.
Also I completely and utterly fail to see the value of being elected. What makes the average uninterested, uneducated and unintelligent member of the public such a good judge of competence and integrity? Democracy makes about as much sense as a peanut butter and jam sandwich. Just why?
But that's probably racist or something nowadays, just forget I said anything.
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:D It`s neither racist or sexiest its just plain stupid. Who says everybody is stupid or unintelligent ? What makes you so intelligent that you think nobody else is ?
Democracy is about majority rule. Politicians will have to come up with policies & ideas that WE the public will have to agree to. Intelligence has nothing to do with it.
Its true to say that the politicians have completely failed the nation & that they arn`t coming up with any policies or ideas worth voting on, it`s one of the reasons people dont vote.
As for ID cards. Dont be a Dog & get led round by the nose !!
ID cards will not protect you from terrorism, crime or anything else for that matter. Its a statement of fact that the 9/11 bombers all had ID cards. Its the main reason they were allowed on the planes !!!
The July bombers here in London would have also had ID cards as they were all British subjects.ID cards are about Governments wanting to control your lives, NOT about anti terror or crime.
It doesn`t work out that only people that have something to hide will not want ID cards. Its about the fact that what i do, were i go, what i read, what i listen to, what i think & what i say are my own Decisions & choices & have nothing to do with this or any Government. Whether your smart enough or not my life is my life & i`m entitled to my privacy whether you like it or not or whether you agree to it or not !
:D 8)
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I am glad JT, that you responded. I was going to and I had all kinds of things to say but you have nailed it. Our Government should never be seen as our "bosses".Power is loaned to them and is supposed to be handed back after their term is up.It is supposed to be handed back in the same condition as it was granted.This has not been done and as a result, the ability of our Government to "Govern" has been eroded to such an extent that they find themselves without any real ideas for coping with the modern world. I believe that democracy is so important that I would fight for the right of people to hold and express views that I do not agree with.For all its faults, democracy has to be better than a dictatorship. The danger that we now face is the rise of extreme groups( forget "right" or "left" wing labels-they do not matter at the end of the day)that are on the rise because of the vacuum that has opened up in the so-called "centre". The public are not too stupid to choose-they are not stupid enough and that is why they vote with their feet and do something else on poll day.If you check you will see that all parties are desparately looking at this as they know full well what is going on but they have themselves to blame.
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Well said jt and Mr 38th!
If they ever pull this id card scheme off and the huge amount of high tech systems of gaining access to every move we make, the opportunity for the unelected civil servants scope for misuse and corruption is scary. Once in place subsequent governments will not have the control over the proposed department as they will have so much influence on everything, they will be the ones in power. Just look at all the federal departments in the states. They all started out as militia groups and have access to anything they want.
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As someone involved in law enforcement I can, perhaps, offer a different perspective and I have mixed feelings and several thoughts on this –
1. Most if not all of us carry some sort of identification already (driving licence, credit cards etc) and we are required to produce them at various points in our lives e.g. opening bank accounts, claiming benefits, in court proceedings etc.
2. There are very few areas of your life that police, customs etc cannot look into. Some of these require a relatively high level of authorisation and are not as easy to come by as you might think but it’s certain that any data held on a card would already be accessible.
3. Like all public services, law enforcement agencies (including, I suspect, MI5) operate to strict budgets and to conduct speculative searches into the lives of ordinary members of the public without any supporting intelligence would be a massive waste of resources. The police in general are under a huge amount of pressure to deal with priority crimes like robbery and burglary and that is where local commanders are going to put their money (I know it might not seem like that to any of you who have received a speeding fine but that’s another story :wink: ).
4. I remember people were saying the same thing in the mid nineties when there was a proliferation of local authority CCTV cameras. The only civil liberties issues I’m aware of from that have been a few people whose gardens/ bedroom windows were being overlooked and most of these issues have been resolved with a minimum of fuss simply by approaching the relevant local authority.
5. Most of the people dealt with by police and where identity is an issue are foreign nationals who wouldn’t be carrying a UK identity card anyway.
6. If the government make it an offence not to carry one, masses of police and court time is going to be spent dealing with people, most of whom won’t have committed any substantive offence. Given what I've said above about robbery and burglary, this would put it quite far down on the police's priorities.
:?
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^to add to some of that.
I'm not for or against the cards to be honest. But while i see that they may not be entirely necessary, and can understand why people feel strongly against them, i really don't agree with this whole attitude about ID cards taking away from our privacy or interfering with our civil liberties. Like Gary just said, a lot of information is already available to the government anyway, and for authorities to delve into everyone's private lives for no reason doesn't really seem like a realistic scenario to me, as (like Gary also said), it would be a waste of time/resources and just seems like it would also be a pointless exercise.
i don't really know what im trying to say, and obviously, i could be entirely wrong and ID cards could be the downfall of the country with the government trawling through our private information and discovering loads of things about us which could be seen as a disaster by many.
However, what i guess my point is, is that while i agree that the scheme isn't necessary and wouldn't provide any great benefits, i don't understand the extreme outlook about what a hugely negative effect the cards will have on us...
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:D It`s neither racist or sexiest its just plain stupid. Who says everybody is stupid or unintelligent ? What makes you so intelligent that you think nobody else is ?
Democracy is about majority rule. Politicians will have to come up with policies & ideas that WE the public will have to agree to. Intelligence has nothing to do with it.
Its true to say that the politicians have completely failed the nation & that they arn`t coming up with any policies or ideas worth voting on, it`s one of the reasons people dont vote.
As for ID cards. Dont be a Dog & get led round by the nose !!
ID cards will not protect you from terrorism, crime or anything else for that matter. Its a statement of fact that the 9/11 bombers all had ID cards. Its the main reason they were allowed on the planes !!!
The July bombers here in London would have also had ID cards as they were all British subjects.ID cards are about Governments wanting to control your lives, NOT about anti terror or crime.
It doesn`t work out that only people that have something to hide will not want ID cards. Its about the fact that what i do, were i go, what i read, what i listen to, what i think & what i say are my own Decisions & choices & have nothing to do with this or any Government. Whether your smart enough or not my life is my life & i`m entitled to my privacy whether you like it or not or whether you agree to it or not !
:D 8)
Did I say anywhere that everybody is stupid or unintelligent? No. On the other hand, intelligence has, in a sense, everything to do with it, since it is so mind bogglingly obvious that certain minorities are more intelligent than the majority. Politics, just like everything else that's imortant, should be handled by people who know and understand what they're talking about. Most of us (myself included) simply don't when it comes to politics. Although some of us to occasionally have the sense not to complain (or even campaign) about what we don't understand. And no, flicking through private eye every few months does not constitute understanding politics. It is a sad fact that democracies have endorsed slavery, capital punishment and all kinds of attrocities at times when there were individuals who thought differently. Majorities are not always correct, in fact it might be reasonable to say that they rarely are. The prime minister's job should be a lottery prize, that'd be a better way of doing it.
And I don't care about terrorists. I care about pubs and I care about keeping 16/17 year olds out of them. That's why I didn't say anything about terrorists, and why I did say something about pubs, and about keeping 16/17 year olds out of them. It'd be nice if this didn't get heated, but maybe it'd help if you actually read my posts rather than reiterating irrelevant (and probably uninformed) nuggets of trivia.
Also, perhaps you'd forgotten but there is still a dusty old piece of legislation in effect which says that what you do, where you go and what you say actually have quite a lot to do with the government. It's called the Law. Perhaps you've heard of it? I don't get people who complain about the government telling them what to do at all. It seems immensely hypocritical, almost like "The government can tell everyone else what they're not allowed to do to me and I expect that to be enforced rigidly, however I am free to do as I like." Why is it that 'majority rule' seems so preoccupied with the individual?
The public are not stupid? Explain glasgow, then. Surely you must accept that the average member of, say, the prometheus society is better informed and more intelligent than the average member of the public?
^ ^ quick note about point 6, if fines are really going to be thousands of pounds, surely the net cost can't be all that much?
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Genocidal, I really do not follow your reasoning-sorry. The "law" is not a singular piece of legislation. You obviously do not like the concept of democracy and I can accept that a pure democracy has yet to be devised but even our flawed system is, at least in my view, preferable to unelected dicatorships-just my view you understand. Getting back to the thread, I think the thing I object to with the proposals that exist for identity cards is that the information stored will be in one place and I simply do not believe that the capability exists to restrict what is on it to those who have a legitimate reason to access it.
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I simply do not believe that the capability exists to restrict what is on it to those who have a legitimate reason to access it.
but isnt that the same for any information on any computer system anywhere?
and what is so horrific about some civil servant finding out the information stored?
i'm yet to see any specific examples of what exact pieces of information it is that people are worried about...
can anyone actually give me a specific example of something that is going to be on the cards that they would have a problem with the government knowing, that they don't already know?
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Too much to list here Sambo. Very briefly, I think I have good reason to suspect both the reasons and the methodology. The reasons given to justify the scheme just do not hold up and I do not trust the ability to safeguard what will be on the database. I have nothing to hide-I have never even had a parking ticket but I still have deep reservations.
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I've had loads! ^ :lol:
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well i agree wholeheartedly that the reasons for implementing the scheme do not hold up...
but the attitude that some people have taken is just confusing to me... sure, i can see why people feel strongly against it being introduced... but fail to understand how the information collected could really be detremental to people's rights or liberties in any way...
and until someone explains a particular piece of data that the government will have access to that is particularly private or sensitive, i'm gonna continue to think that way.
and i agree with you by the way about the actual protection of whatever data is stored.
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Like I said, Sambo, there is a lot I would say in a lengthy post which I don't think is appropriate-for now you and I will have to just respect each others views and that we each have our reasons. I should perhaps explain that I do have an agenda that I am not prepared to go into right now but I do not just talk about this stuff, I do get involved.
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i think your right mate, we shall call it a day. and by the way none of what i was saying was aimed specifically at you, nor was it meant to be having a go at anyone if it seemed that way.
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:D Ok Genocidal you asked for it ! :lol:
1st right now any & all bar people can ask to see some form of ID. So why dont they ? Just because an ID card is introduced doesn`t mean it cant or wont be forged. Making it as redundant as Driving licences, passports etc. The real problem is it`ll only need to be an ID card that criminals, Terrorists & anti socials will need to fraud. Its allready been reported & stated on "Question Time" by MP`s themselves that there is allready a huge blackmarket quoting prices for these cards [ £1,500 per card ] was the figure touted. Criminals wont care who they sell these cards to, this will actually hinder the fight against terroism & wont stop a single 16/17yr old drinking in a pub/club.
As for the argument that other organisations hold more info about you than the govenment its true. As a labour MP stated. "Tescos no`s more about you than we [ Govenment ] do". The difference is YOU choose to give that info to other organisations & your under no threat of Fines/imprisonment if you dont. YOU have freedom of choice. The ID card will have none. It`ll be a criminal offence not to have or carry one.
As for the argument that says politicians no what there doing, Are you F***ing joking ! There`s only 2 MPs i`ve heard in the last 20 yrs that have made any sense at all. The politicians are only concerned with power. They dont give a flying F**k about me, you our familys, friends they only want the power, & not to do good but to rake in as much money inorder to fill there egos. Any one who trusts a politician in this day & age is simply a total F***ing A**hole. Be smarter, ask questions of them & dont let them flob you off with some bulls**t awnser.
Oh & by the way you should read what you write before claiming somebody has misunderstood your words I quote
"What makes the average uninterested, uneducated and unintelligent member of the public"
There your words not mine.
:D 8)
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For me I don't want ID cards because I don't trust the government. They mislead us on virtually everything these days and I don't see why this issue would b any different.
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As I'm sure Dave_mc and the other Northern Ireland born or resident folk will tell you, it was perfectly normal to be stopped, searched and have ID demanded (let's face it, twas hardly a request) on a fairly regular basis (even moreso if you lived in the "wrong" area, or had the "wrong" surname) here, right up to the mid nineties from both police and troops. Speaking from personal experience, it didn't make a lick of difference to the terrorism situation. ID cards seem to be a backpedal into these days.
The "Nothing to Hide, Nothing to Fear" argument is one that really, really gets my goat. Leaving aside the obvious impliction therein (that ID card refuseniks are inherently crims), it's a misunderstanding of the anti ID movement at a fundamental level. I don't "fear" having to carry ID (As stated above, I did for many years), or think my criminal mastermindery will be exposed by it. I simply don't want my details stored on a database which is beyond the usual protections afforded to me by law. That government minister, or mp wittering on about "Tesco's Know more about you than the Government" misses a critical point. You can demand your removal from the tesco's database, or see any and all records relating to yourself. Somehow, I doubt such basic protections will extend to the ID database.
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I was kind of promising myself that I would not add to this anymore simply because I have so many thoughts about it that I cannot possibly represent what I think in concise one liners. The information to be held on the database, whether you believe it to be no more than what is currently available or whether you believe it to be more than that, is going to be on one database and all kinds of people are going to be able access it.I do not want someone somewhere having my medical records at their disposal for example. Having read a lot on this subject I am absulutely not convinced that the security is sufficient and, of course, we do not know what type of Government we have to come in future years and what may seem to be fairly innocuous now can so quickly be turned to something more sinister. Totalitarian regimes like to keep very detailed records of their citizens-who they are, what they do and where they go and why-this is not scaremongering, it is historical fact. I do not participate in so called loyalty cards because of my suspicions about the usage of the data they obtain-I forego the few pence "benefits". I accept that others may not be as obsessive as I am about their privacy and if they are happy to tell all then good for them-just don't force me to. I also suspect the postal voting system-typically poorly thought-out and badly executed and voting preferences cannot be guaranteed to be anonymous-a fundemental principle in a democratic system. Who is to say that voting records will not find their way onto this system and if one votes for the "wrong"party then this could be used against you.Maybe this seems far fetched but look around you and see that civil liberties are constantly being taken away in the interests of security.Extreme political parties are being encouraged in the political vacuum and are preying upon fear and ignorance. Anyway, I have said way too much and I apologise to all for the lengthy ramble.
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Good points Steve! I don't have those 'loyalty cards' either, for the same reasons.
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Genocidal, I really do not follow your reasoning-sorry. The "law" is not a singular piece of legislation. You obviously do not like the concept of democracy and I can accept that a pure democracy has yet to be devised but even our flawed system is, at least in my view, preferable to unelected dicatorships-just my view you understand. Getting back to the thread, I think the thing I object to with the proposals that exist for identity cards is that the information stored will be in one place and I simply do not believe that the capability exists to restrict what is on it to those who have a legitimate reason to access it.
Yes, I am aware that the law isn't a single piece of legislation. If you hadn't noticed, that wasn't really the point I was making.
The same could be said of any bank's computer system. Presumably you do have a bank account?
1st right now any & all bar people can ask to see some form of ID. So why dont they ? Just because an ID card is introduced doesn`t mean it cant or wont be forged. Making it as redundant as Driving licences, passports etc. The real problem is it`ll only need to be an ID card that criminals, Terrorists & anti socials will need to fraud. Its allready been reported & stated on "Question Time" by MP`s themselves that there is allready a huge blackmarket quoting prices for these cards [ £1,500 per card ] was the figure touted. Criminals wont care who they sell these cards to, this will actually hinder the fight against terroism & wont stop a single 16/17yr old drinking in a pub/club.
Yes, you're quite right, every single 16/17 year old in Britain will gladly spend £1500 on a fake ID. Pubs don't ID because they'd lose a lot of customers and because it's a pain in the hole dealing with thousands of different types of ID cards, and a lot of adults don't carry ID anyway. Common sense would therefore seem to dictate that if everyone carried ID and if there was a single type of card, more pubs would ID people.
Again, I don't care about terrorism. It's never going to be serious enough that it's actually worth bothering ourselves about. Not here, anyway.
As for the argument that other organisations hold more info about you than the govenment its true. As a labour MP stated. "Tescos no`s more about you than we [ Govenment ] do". The difference is YOU choose to give that info to other organisations & your under no threat of Fines/imprisonment if you dont. YOU have freedom of choice. The ID card will have none. It`ll be a criminal offence not to have or carry one.
That really is a piss weak difference. So $%&#ing what? Back to banks, what are you going to say if some hacker manages to empty your life savings? "I'm not upset, I chose that bank"? No, you're not. Why? Because it happened to you, and that's the only person you really care about. If 59,999,999 people put themselves in danger of their own free will then that's ok, for the pure and simple reason that you're not one of them.
As for the argument that says politicians no what there doing, Are you F***ing joking ! There`s only 2 MPs i`ve heard in the last 20 yrs that have made any sense at all. The politicians are only concerned with power. They dont give a flying F**k about me, you our familys, friends they only want the power, & not to do good but to rake in as much money inorder to fill there egos. Any one who trusts a politician in this day & age is simply a total F***ing A**hole. Be smarter, ask questions of them & dont let them flob you off with some bulls**t awnser.
And yet you can't supply a sliver of a shred of evidence to support any of that conspiracist cr@p. You don't know what you're talking about. It's as simple as that.
Oh, and look up "average" in a dictionary, then look up "every" and see if you can notice a slight difference.
38th just seems to be ranting, there's no substance at all to that last post.
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Genocidal-I am not going to respond to you except to say you have your views, I respect that-I just found your post very disjointed and confused but I am not going to get into a slanging match ok.
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:D Ha Ha Ha !
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
Who said anything about conspiracy ? Your the one now Not ready the posts correctly. I merely stated a belief. There`s no conspiracy about it. Take a look at the Iraq War. I`m one of the smug B*rst*ds as i was opposed to it right from the start. When Tory Blair stated he wouldn`t put troops in to Iraq unless the report came back from MI5/6 stating there were Weapons Of Mass Destruction i told one of my mates "you wait & see i bet it says exactly what he wants it to say & i bet its a pack of lies" was i wrong ? How many MP`s stood up & shouted we need to go to war in order to remove a dictator ? Yet how many of them wont send troops into Zimbabwe ? were a dictator is killing tens of thousands & is slowly destroying his country.
As i said YOU choose whether you give info over to Tesco`s etc it`s your choice. If you make a bad choice its YOUR responsibility not mine. When your bank account gets ripped your bank is responsible for your losses. My father recently had his account ripped. when he went to the bank & reported it the cashier stated that the level of fraud had trebled since the introduction of chip & pin. How ? we were all told that chip & pin would make our accounts safer ! We were all told that covering the country in surveillance cameras would reduce crime. It hasn`t. All its actually done in some cases is record the crimes being committed & lead to the emergence of "Hoodies" [ this is in response to the former police man that replied to this thread]
Oh & the 2 MP`s i`ve heard talk any sense at all in the Last 20yrs are
Ian Duncan Smith - for his wide ranging & meticulous report on the entire anti social, poverty, low wage, chav, hoodie etc As he said on Five Live himself, "This report is going to take some serious rethinking by politicians of all parties, As the problems are wide ranging & you cant deal with one & not the others "
Jon Crudas - The Labour MP for Dagenham. Who has stated that "No one who earns less than £40,000 [ per year ] has any political representation from any of the party's " He is a regular MP guest on five live & is deeply critical of his own party's total desertion [ his words not mine ] of working people. AS a side note he is running for the deputy Leader position of his own party. It`ll be interesting to see if there is any credible opposition to him.
Oh & to be average means to be the Majority otherwise you'd be a Minority & therefore not the Average. Check out the Theory of Mediocrity
:D 8)