Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: MDV on January 14, 2007, 03:48:52 PM
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I'm gonna spend about £500 on some recording gear. Mics, pre amp, stands, good heaphones and a new soundcard if I need it. If I can do it with less, then cool, if I need more it can be arranged easily: I could go up to 6 or 700£ happily enough or maybe 1000 with a clear conscience if I'm convinced I'll get the benefit from it
At the moment I have a soundblaster audigy w/ firewire: its clearly made for 5.1 sound, films, games and the like, with a decent input tagged on. I dont know whether it has the capability to record to a decent standard: I've never got a good input to it (cheap mic that the screamer blew a short while ago straight in, no pre was what I used to use).
Mic-wise I'm thinking its between audix i-5, sm-57, maybe a sienhesser MD421 if I cant find it around 250.
I have no idea what pre to use.
Software will be cubase SX3 and adobe audition.
I dont want anything thats gonna ake over my PC, not let me use other sound oriented software (for example a mate of mine has a really good recording setup with protools and an m-box, but he tried to install the click and tuner I use and it wouldnt let him, and I'll be needing winamp to be fully finctional: my sterwo sucks and 40G of music isnt going to waste!)
Any help very much appreciated.
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i have:
Event TR-5 (pair) monitors
Sennheiser HD280Pro (invaluable for recording, unless you have a separate room for the cab) used for recording only as they lack the punch of real speakers and the midrange is diferent.. to my ears at least.
Shure SM-57
and a Phonic Mu1002 (but i wish i went for a soundcraft compact4 .. same thing basicaly, but the soundcraft is better quality)
i use cool edit pro2 on the computer and i get great results
all this ran me give or take a couple.. 740€
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for micing guitar cabs, you can't go wrong with SM57s AND they're cheap.
rather than a mic preamp, I'd go for a Mackie desk - the preamp are very good and you'll get much more mileage out of a mixing desk.
for soundcards I'd go with Midiman - their stuff sounds excellent. even the ones with less in/outs have the same quality as the more expensive models.
for recording/mixing software I like Cool Edit Pro to record the tracks since it's SO simple. from there I like to use Logic Audio to mix.
you can't go wrong with Beyer headphones either - industry standard stuff and you can get 'em new for around £80.
:twisted:
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Getting a whole recording set up for £500 is going to be tight, recording gear is one of those blackhole areas which can easily swallow up all your available funds and then some. It's well worth popping into the Sound on Sound forums, as they're very knowledgeable and friendly folk.
It looks like you're top priority should be sorting a better soundcard out. I'm very happy with my Emu 1212M - it's got really good converters, which is where you want to spend your money, and comes with a free copy of Cubase (which would take care of software duties). The onboard fx aren't amazing, but will take the load off your computer as they run on the Emu DSP chip, and are certainly better than the stock Cubase fx. Roughly £130 for you sir :)
Beyerdynamic DT100's are the industry standard headphones for tracking, built like a tank and pretty comfortable - you can pick them up for about £70-ish if you shop around.
For mic-ing guitar cabs you can't really go wrong with an SM57, although I also use a Rode Nt1-A condensor a lot these days.
For stands, I swear by K&M - Canford Audio stock the full range. Good sturdy no nonsense stands.
There are some decent budget pre's about, nothing to exotic but should be clean enough to get some demo's down. Soundcraft do a 4 pre mixer that comes in at £70-ish - it's what I started out on and it's great bang for buck. Well worthing looking into. The DAV BG1 is my pre of choice, but sadly that weighs in at £475ish.
Speakers I think will be where you struggle on your budget, as you could wipeo ut your entire budget on a pair of entry level speakers. KRK, Genelec, Adam, and Blue Sky are well respected brands worth looking into. There are plenty of reviews at Sound on Sound which might help you.
If you get decent speakers you'll also need to do some basic acoustic treatment for your room, so take that into account when you budget too :)
Goodluck
*Rahnooo*
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Kinda hijacking here but how much do cables matter? At the minute I cant afford a "good" recording setup so for the time being I'm gonna run an sm57 straight into my soundcard.
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I build my own cables - Canford Audio sell BBC spec cable at 80p a meter, add Neutrik connectors, and you get a top notch cable for a low low price. Chances are if the cable dies it'll be a solder joint cracking so it's easy to fix yourself. Those neutrik connectors will survive long after I'm not on this earth.
It's a false economy to use "cheap" cables as it's unlikely you'll be able to get any cheaper than for the cost of making your own, and the components you can get from Canford are top notch.
My other piece of advice is avoid Behringer like the plague. Cheap nasty gear that is often noisy, have unreliable power supplies, and tend to die after 4 or 5 months. Buying behringer recording gear is another false economy in my book.
*Rahnooo*
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I have a Line6 Toneport UX2 (and somewhat good cables, all Planetwaves) and it's perfect for recording. You can plug mics directly in it; it gots a 48v psu and guitar inputs if you want to use the internal modeling.
It's also a very good soundcard, no noise at all with good monitors (I use ESI Near 5 Experience)
A good all in one solution IMHO
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How can I put this that will not cause any legal issues.
Behringer mixers (and such) are downmarket 'tributes' of Mackie equipment. The same as their analogue modelling amps are (poor) emulations of the Tech 21 models.
Rob...
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Bit like Hellhound.
Have a Toneport UX2 (two phantom powered sockets if needed), a Shure Dynamic and a BLUE Ball. Oh and some M-Audio powered monitors (currently keeping my shipping stuff happy somewhere between here and UK, sheesh).
This does enough for me to keep me happy and amused.
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All personal opinion?experience:
I would get good monitors. Get a decent brand, active bi-amped ones. Rather buy smaller size/wattage but better quality. At all cost (like with guitar gear) listen before you buy.
I would spend at least 300 on good monitors. I have KRK V6 which I've been digging since 3 years.
Mic/Mixer wise I agree with HTH.
SM57 and Mackie are a good combo. I experiemented with some other mics as well as multiple mics and always ended up using just the SM57 track.
If you can get an old Mackie 1202 (without VLZ, the one that is not thin but rather like a box) get it - it's great and always sounds spot on.
A tad lower on the quality scale are the Phonic Helix mixers, which have integrated Firewire Audio interface. They are easy to use (no driver needed on Mac) and can record and mix up to 16 tracks. If you wanna do recording and record and mix live gigs of your band, that is the best choice. Price wise they cannot be beaten.
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Line 6 Toneports are pretty easy to use though it does take a while to get a good tone.
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Thanks a lot for alll the help guys!
OK, so far I'm thinking about getting the following:
Soundcard, mixer, mics, headphones, monitors.
Mixer, mics and headphones are top priority, cos at least then I can get started.
2 SM57s (for spaced pair and what have you) or 1 57 and 1 i-5 (I heard a comparison and liked the 57s high end and the i-5s lows)
Mixer: You lot seem to be recommending mackie quite highly. Any currently available model to look at?
Other than that I found a soundcraft compact 4 for £70. Does anyone have any strong opinions about the quality and capability of mackie compared to soundcraft? I wouldnd want to be getting a squire mixer when I could have a fender, if you see what I mean. How do they compare?
Headphones: Sennheiser HD280Pro or beyer.
So thats about 250 for mixer (assuming its soundcraft), mics and headphones. Use the headphones as monitors for a while.
Looks like a sensible budget for the soundcard is about £100. Seems reasonable to me: 350 ear-marked total.
Monitors: I'll choose based on sound/price. Lots of searching to do there: I'll likely be stuck with normal hi fi speakers for a while (dont llok at me like that!) till I find the right ones. I'll be looking, based on whats been said in here and advice from mates, at about £300 for a pair.
Does this seem like a sensible start and well-proportioned outlay to you guys? If not, where would you spend the money? Remember: 500 was my provisional amount, but I can go over it if convinced its worth it.
Oh, and the application will be little but me trying to lay down the best guitar sounds I can: not so much for live or even multiple instruments at a time (so, 15 track mixers and the like, while apealing, arent going to be much use to me right now!).
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Other than that I found a soundcraft compact 4 for £70. Does anyone have any strong opinions about the quality and capability of mackie compared to soundcraft? I wouldnd want to be getting a squire mixer when I could have a fender, if you see what I mean. How do they compare?
i would say equal.. though mackie seems a bit more popular.
about the SC Compact series... it won multiple awards in its mixing desk range last year.
about the speakers... all i can say is Event Tuned Reference 5 (if you can get a 6 for that price go for it) you will not believe the sound that comes from these little puppies. insanely tight speakers and lots of clarity
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Rather than two SM57s, you might try a different second mic for more tonal options. I've been meaning to get a Sennheiser e906 for a while now, they're supposed to be VERY nice for guitar cabs.
As for monitors, I always did ok with my B&W hi-fi speakers when I was doing lots of recording. I think as long as you know how your monitoring setup 'sounds' you can mix on 'em fine.
You could save lots of cash by getting a used Mackie desk on ebay - I sold my 1604VLZ-PRO for £500 (that was an £800 desk when I bought it new). You don't necessarily need anything as big as a 16:4:2 though - the 1202 will be fine for your use.
:twisted:
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You can download a review of the Soundcraft Compact 4 here:
http://www.musictechmag.co.uk/mtm/reviews/compact-4
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Line 6 Toneports are pretty easy to use though it does take a while to get a good tone.
Funny, i thought exactly the opposite about the tone when I got it. I can easily taylor any sound I want even with the basic modeling pack it come with. I might get the metal pack in the near future thow...
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Yet another tuppenceworth with which to confuse!
1. Get balanced audio cables, otherwise you'll pick up unwanted artefacts(cr@p noise you don't want). This'll be more noticeable if you get a 24-bit card, as you'll want.
2. Avoid for now going down the costly nearfield monitor route: I say this because you can "reference" from any speakers. I know a guy who has a mix going through a set of car speakers, as that is where he listens to most of his music. Likewise, I've a mix that goes thru my home stereo: a) I'm used to its frequencies; b) it's easier for me to "refer" to a CD of my fave music and so judge what tweaks I do at mastering stage.
IF you have to get nearfields? Well, I've used ESI powered nearfields for 2 years; cheap, reliable and flat-responding...that is, avoid anything too bassy.
Also, if you've posh monnies and a 24-bit card, ANY audio artefact will leap out at you more stridently and you may become dispirited.
3. Solve the pre-amp and soundcard thing in one hit by getting a soundcard that has its own breakout box!
I'd really strongly suggest a Creative E-mu 1616M. It has mastering-grade converters and a breakout box that has both mic inputs and its own guitar preamp.
I say this also because I'm going to be upgrading my own system from M-Audio to this E-mu and I wouldn't endorse anything I didn't believe in myself..and that was too costly!
Thomann does good prices for the E-mu: £297. Before you grimace at the price, realise that for this you get an outstanding 24-bit card that does everything and has good preamps for both guitar and vocal. This should be your main expense rather than monitors: use your present creative ones for now(I did for one of my CDs). Invest next either in a SM57, or if you can stretch it, to a Rode NT (I forget which one...about £100). Bear in mind the Emu also offers phantom power for a condensor mic, so another saving.
Your total cost= about £400; you'll be so pleased you could send a tenner to Zigmund for his help and still have 90 sheets left to take the missis out! :D
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I've got a Emu 1820 and it's great. :)
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Ok, I'm well up for this Emu lark!
But I know nowt about this stuff, so I'm going to ask the collective wisdom here for opinion (really, no offence guys!): If anyone knows how the card/pre combination would compare to card/separate mixer, please speak up!
HTH: those are my thoughts on mics as well: I was gonna go for 57s for their industry standardness and you generally cant seem to go wrong and getting two keeps it simple and I can always find a use for another 57, but I was also thinking 57/audix i-5 and 57/MD421 (more expensive, but apparently worth it) too. I'll look at mixing mics without a doubt now.
And again, all of you, thanks so much for the great advice here: I'm unfamiliar with this stuff and really appreciate it!
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Well, I suppose the standalone external mixer is physically handy in that you can physically hook things up: obvious really, yet doing things "virtually" can be a bit confusing if one is starting out. It would be more beneficial if, say, you wanted to record several more folks simultaneously and have different mixes going to the individual players; If you were busy, it could be a pain going in and out of menus on the pc maybe. Any effects you used externally of course means that you put less load on your CPU...you'll also have fewer latency problems too, I'd think.
On the other hand, patching things on screen in your "card/pre" option means fewer leads: thus, you keep the signal path cleaner and you'll save money; using software effects will give you much better bang for buck in terms of quality.
Considering the extra cost of a decent standalone mixer, you'll save time and money with the breakout box option, as long as the breakout box has enough ins/outs.
Finally, seeing as something like the Emu 1616M is posh enough to have a really good bundle of sequencing software, you'd maybe spend extra in that department if you had to fork out for a separate mixer.
Think of how many instruments/players are going to be using it simultaneously too...also, if you bought a mixer, you'd still have to fork out for a guitar preamp.
I know I sound biased here..well, I confess I am really; I weighed up my options to maximise cost and quality and decided on the card/breakout option. I'm not saying this is everyone's preference or the "right" way, but it's proven logical to me. Best of wishes with this; lerrus know how you get on!
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The Emu 1818M keeps things nice and simple, and while the pre-s won't be amazing they'll certainly hold their own with a mixer of equivalent cost. I've got the 1212M which is essentially the same digital connectivity and covertors, but without the breakout box, and I'm very happy with it. If you get into recording in a big way then the Emu will continue to hold it's own, and the additional line level inputs mean that you can add extra pre's and you'll still have the 2 Emu's pre's as well. For £300 it's a smart solution :)
*Rahnooo*
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OK, thanks massively for everyones help!
I'm off to manchester on sunday to see if theres anything I can get in the sales, armed with all your advice (and some old fashioned in-person stuff).
I'll let you know how I get on. If I get on.
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Shops were all closed!
Damn my opportunistic ride-hitching without checking stuff like that first!
More updates to come!
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Ok folks, heres where I am now:
I have these candidates from soho soundhouse. One looks pretty rough-and-ready, one looks quite flash.
I want to record a guitar (to begin with) with something good for running straight into a soundcard, as the soundcraft claims to be. But I also want it to sound as good as possible, and the Mackie claims to have studio quality pre's.
I don’t trust any advert of any sort, so…..which do you think?
Will the Mackie run easily into my soundcard or will it just confuse me?
Will the soundcraft sound good, and its lower priced because its only 4 channel or is it ‘cheap-and-cheerfull’?
Soundcraft compact 4
http://www.turnkey.co.uk/web/productAction.do?dispatch=showProduct&SKU=SCRA-COMPACT4&context=WEB
Mackie 1202 vlz pro.
http://www.turnkey.co.uk/web/productAction.do?dispatch=showProduct&SKU=MACK-1202PRO&context=WEB
Mic wise I'm going for one SM57 and one i-5. Headphones are also on the list, but I'll choose separately.
Thanks again guys!