Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum

Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Gary on March 03, 2007, 09:17:19 AM

Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: Gary on March 03, 2007, 09:17:19 AM
I‘m in the process of saving up for a Les Paul Standard but I’ve heard horror stories about the quality of Gibson’s current output. I already have two Strats so I’m very familiar with their sound/ construction/ playability but not so much with LP’s. I’m thinking of spending the equivalent (approx £1400) on a second hand one but was hoping for some input from people on here. My questions specifically are:

Any particular views on this course of action, new vs second hand, any problem areas to look out for on second hand LP’s etc,

I’m aware that Chandlers in Kew and Vintage and Rare in Denmark Street both seem to have good selections but does anyone know of other shops in London that would be worth a visit,

I expect plenty of people will tell me that good quality Japanese copies or custom build is the way to go. These options are very much under consideration but not what I need help with at present as both have already been covered extensively in these forums.

Look forward to your input.
Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: Antag on March 03, 2007, 09:59:28 AM
My advice could be summed up in two words: SHOP AROUND

I went through similar doubts to you a few years back (FWIW, I now own 3 LP stds).  Gibson's quality control is highly variable & there are some truly shocking instruments with "Gibson" on the headstock.

However, there are nice ones to be had.  You need to be patient, go to as many places as you can, inspect the guitars thoroughly & not get carried away when you see one that has the look (colour/finish etc) you want.  IMO you are taking a BIG risk if you buy unseen.

Things in particular to watch out for:
Fretboard & fretwork  - I've lost count of the number of Gibsons I've tried that had unevenly filed or poorly installed frets & poorly sanded fingerboards.  For example I remember one guitar that looked as if a fairly competent luthier had installed frets 1-8, then handed over to the cleaner who proceeded to sand the upper fretboard with a house brick, press frets 9-22 in so hard some of them pitted the board, then sanded them down until some of them looked almost painted on :eek:

Pickups - leaving aside opinions on tone, microphonic pickups can be a problem.

Hardware - some guitars have been on the rack for years with all sorts of people putting their grubby mitts on them so you will see corrosion (pickup covers & bridge/tailpiece most).  You might not mind the "aged" look but I like my guitars to look new.

Tuners - while most tuning problems actually come from the nut, I have seen some where one or two of the tuners are either very stiff, or so loose they "slip".

Weight - this isn't always the case, but the heavy LPs (>10lbs) tend to be very bassy (big booming bass, tons of sustain, but sometimes a bit muddy).  Lighter ones (8½lbs or less) seem to "sing" a bit more.  OK, I'm generalising & it's not necessarily true that light=good & heavy=bad.  Play several & listen hard to how they respond to your playing.

Most problems are fixable, but some of them (frets) involve major expense to put right.  I guess it depends how much you want a Les Paul.

Personally, I think it's worth it - I love mine :)

Hope this helps, YMMV etc...
Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: Jazz Rock on March 03, 2007, 10:50:35 AM
Quote from: Antag
My advice could be summed up in two words: SHOP AROUND


I couldn't second that anymore. Itry a few month ago two Gibson LPs in different shop, using them to try overdrive pedal.

The first one was a first class instrument. Never played such beautifully made guitar. Build quality, sound, sustain, pickups tonality, everything was brilliant.
Than the next week in another shop I tried another pedal with a Gibby LP. Never seen such an appalling fret job. And it sounded dull and muddy.

And they were both "called" Gibson LP Standard, but they were obviously from two different world.

So go shopping until you find one that feels and sound the way you like.
Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: Philly Q on March 03, 2007, 11:07:28 AM
I agree with Antag's opening comments.  There seems to be an "all new Gibsons are cr@p" bandwagon rolling at the moment, and gathering momentum.  Unfortunately people who've never even played a Gibson start reading these claims and repeating them to all and sundry.

New Gibsons are NOT CRÄP (shocker!).  In fact in many ways they're better than they were 10 or so years ago.  Timber quality has improved, so it's less likely you'll see the bone-dry, pale fingerboards that were all too common in the 90s (unfortunately they seem to be using up the old shitee on the Faded SGs and Vs, but even then there are good ones).  My Pete Townshend SG even has a one-piece body, which I thought I'd never see again on anything other than Hamer or PRS.

However, new Gibsons are VERY INCONSISTENT.  There seems to still be quite a lot of hand-finishing at the Gibson factory.  I have two '99 SGs and the sanding on the body contours is quite different.  Also the finishing is a bit rough and ready - the nitro finish always sinks into the grain somewhere, especially on the sides of the headstock.  Personally I like these "defects" - it feels like I have a guitar built by humans.

I agree with Antag about the fretting and fingerboards - they still seem to install the frets pretty heavy-handedly, so there's sometimes a lot of pitting/minor splintering of the board around the frets.  Touch wood, this hasn't affected the playability of my own guitars (or maybe I'm just easily pleased).

The main reason I continue to buy Gibsons is the necks - LPs or SGs, those fat rounded neck profiles are just perfect for me.  I've owned Hamers whick knocked the Gibsons out of the park in workmanship terms, but I've always ended up keeping the Gibbos for those necks.  Of course that's a personal taste thing...

Again, as Antag said, shop around.  I'd buy a Japanese or Korean guitar mail order, but you need to try Gibsons to make sure you get a good one.

As for where to buy, Chandlers and Vintage & Rare are fine, but their prices are stratospheric.  If you decide to buy new, I'd recommend travelling a bit - try Peter Cooks in Hanwell, Coda in Luton or Stevenage and Guitar Village in Farnham.  The shops may be small and pokey, but they have big stocks on site and the prices are much cheaper.
Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: Antag on March 03, 2007, 11:40:29 AM
Quote from: Philly Q
Coda in Luton or Stevenage and Guitar Village in Farnham.  The shops may be small and pokey, but they have big stocks on site


+1

Also Andertons in Guildford might be worth a visit (got my Vintage Burst (http://bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=5155) from there)
Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: msplines on March 03, 2007, 03:07:44 PM
You could try contacting Feline guitars, they are not too far and are worth a visit.
Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: shaman on March 03, 2007, 09:34:55 PM
if I bought a standard, I would shop around for a 2002 to present-check out various gibson forums/good info on this-there were some ?? in the 90's to 2002-my standard is a 2002-want fast neck??get the 60's neck..damn sure is fast!!my 2002 is a dream to play and a workhorse now that I replaced the burstbucks with a set of rebel yells-hell, I got 150 bucks for the bb's on the bay--that helped me fund my mm/cs set
rawwwwk on!!!
Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: CaffeineJunkie on March 03, 2007, 09:42:18 PM
for that kind of money, you may as well chat to feline guitars about a custom built les paul, it'll be to your exact specs then, and you won't have to go to every shop on the planet
Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: Twinfan on March 03, 2007, 11:08:52 PM
True, but you're stuck with it if it doesn't quite play/feel/sound 'right'.  At least with an off-the-shelf you can try before you buy.  That's very important to me.
Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: CaffeineJunkie on March 04, 2007, 01:06:37 AM
Quote from: Twinfan
True, but you're stuck with it if it doesn't quite play/feel/sound 'right'.  At least with an off-the-shelf you can try before you buy.  That's very important to me.


that's the idea of a custom-build, it's made to your specifications
Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: Antag on March 04, 2007, 10:02:47 AM
Quote from: CaffeineJunkie
...and you won't have to go to every shop on the planet


You say that as if it's a bad thing :?  - visting good guitar shops is FUN!! :) :D :lol:
Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: Twinfan on March 04, 2007, 10:59:03 AM
Quote from: CaffeineJunkie
Quote from: Twinfan
True, but you're stuck with it if it doesn't quite play/feel/sound 'right'.  At least with an off-the-shelf you can try before you buy.  That's very important to me.


that's the idea of a custom-build, it's made to your specifications


True, but you won't know how the wood responds or how all the bits 'gel' until it's built.
Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: Bob Johnson on March 04, 2007, 11:55:07 AM
Quote from: Twinfan
Quote from: CaffeineJunkie
Quote from: Twinfan
True, but you're stuck with it if it doesn't quite play/feel/sound 'right'.  At least with an off-the-shelf you can try before you buy.  That's very important to me.


that's the idea of a custom-build, it's made to your specifications


True, but you won't know how the wood responds or how all the bits 'gel' until it's built.


It's possible to tailor the sound of a guitar to within very fine limits with good quality control. I've built guitars for guys, some of whom contribute to this forum, who have had very specific wants and needs and still nailed the tone they were looking for.

Custom building is not anything like the raffle you're suggesting it is TF.

Cheers,
Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: Gary on March 04, 2007, 12:58:47 PM
Thanks for the responses, some good down to earth advice here which is exactly what I was after.

RE: custom build - Yes I am considering it and would almost certainly go to feline (he is just round the corner from me). At present I'm just exploring the option of a new/ second hand Gibson so keep the opinions coming.
Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: Twinfan on March 04, 2007, 04:24:16 PM
Quote from: Bob Johnson
It's possible to tailor the sound of a guitar to within very fine limits with good quality control. I've built guitars for guys, some of whom contribute to this forum, who have had very specific wants and needs and still nailed the tone they were looking for.

Custom building is not anything like the raffle you're suggesting it is TF.


Thanks for that info Bob.  I guess I should give custom builders more credit  :D
Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: Crazy_Joe on March 04, 2007, 04:33:04 PM
Coda Music in Luton and Stevenage have a wide range of Tokai Les Pauls, they just got a new batch of limited edition ones. They are a fraction of the price for pretty much the same quality so you might want to look into them too.
Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: richardmca on March 05, 2007, 09:29:36 PM
Quote
As for where to buy, Chandlers and Vintage & Rare are fine, but their prices are stratospheric. If you decide to buy new, I'd recommend travelling a bit - try Peter Cooks in Hanwell, Coda in Luton or Stevenage and Guitar Village in Farnham. The shops may be small and pokey, but they have big stocks on site and the prices are much cheaper.

I'd also recommend M&M Music in Southampton  - maybe a bit of an excursion for a Londoner, but there is a good stock of fairly interesting Gibsons there at most times, and the guys in the shop are very down to earth about the quality. You can rely on getting an honest answer over the phone about whether it's worth making the trip down there to play whatever they've got.

I've only ever played one LP I liked, and that's the one I bought 15 years ago - a really tatty 72 Deluxe - no cosmetic appeal (unless you like the battle-scarred look, and I do) but just plays beautifully. Absolutely agree with other posters - you can't buy without trying, and it may take you a long time. It's difficult if you have your heart set on something though, to stand back and make a good decision with your head. I had a disappointment with an SG Custom I bought new without trying (2006 VOS 61 Reissue) because I always fancied one. Stupid. It looks great, and smells great (what do they put int that nitro?) but it will be going to BKP soon to have a major transplant, because it's useless to me at the moment. But that's partly because I didn't have experience with SGs - some SG nuts who have played it think it's great. Which also illustrates the point that the guitar that is for you will never come out of a catalogue - you have to play it, and I would say forget the way it looks. You might be like me and find something tatty that does more for you than the pinups.
Title: Gibson Les Pauls
Post by: ElTel on March 08, 2007, 06:43:09 PM
Hi,

Are'nt Gibson Les Pauls simply costing way too much now anyway?
You may spend £1500 - £2000 and get a good one. On the other hand you may spend a lot less [say £250 to £500] on another make and get a beauty...?

Of course if you just have to have a Gibson Les Paul then buy carefully... I'm off to have a strum on my Epiphone LP.....   8)

ElTel
Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: FELINEGUITARS on March 08, 2007, 07:01:21 PM
Quote from: Antag
My advice could be summed up in two words: SHOP AROUND

I went through similar doubts to you a few years back (FWIW, I now own 3 LP stds).  Gibson's quality control is highly variable & there are some truly shocking instruments with "Gibson" on the headstock.

However, there are nice ones to be had.  You need to be patient, go to as many places as you can, inspect the guitars thoroughly & not get carried away when you see one that has the look (colour/finish etc) you want.  IMO you are taking a BIG risk if you buy unseen.

Things in particular to watch out for:
Fretboard & fretwork  - I've lost count of the number of Gibsons I've tried that had unevenly filed or poorly installed frets & poorly sanded fingerboards.  For example I remember one guitar that looked as if a fairly competent luthier had installed frets 1-8, then handed over to the cleaner who proceeded to sand the upper fretboard with a house brick, press frets 9-22 in so hard some of them pitted the board, then sanded them down until some of them looked almost painted on :eek:

Pickups - leaving aside opinions on tone, microphonic pickups can be a problem.

Hardware - some guitars have been on the rack for years with all sorts of people putting their grubby mitts on them so you will see corrosion (pickup covers & bridge/tailpiece most).  You might not mind the "aged" look but I like my guitars to look new.

Tuners - while most tuning problems actually come from the nut, I have seen some where one or two of the tuners are either very stiff, or so loose they "slip".

Weight - this isn't always the case, but the heavy LPs (>10lbs) tend to be very bassy (big booming bass, tons of sustain, but sometimes a bit muddy).  Lighter ones (8½lbs or less) seem to "sing" a bit more.  OK, I'm generalising & it's not necessarily true that light=good & heavy=bad.  Play several & listen hard to how they respond to your playing.

Most problems are fixable, but some of them (frets) involve major expense to put right.  I guess it depends how much you want a Les Paul.

Personally, I think it's worth it - I love mine :)

Hope this helps, YMMV etc...


Find one that you like the look and feel of and consider keeping enough money in reserve to have it given a pro fret dress and set up - or even a refret.

We are doing just that for Antag with a couple of his LPs
Making a good guitar into a great guitar

Or consider going custom built and get all the features you want
Title: Les Paul prices
Post by: richardmca on March 08, 2007, 08:54:58 PM
Quote
Are'nt Gibson Les Pauls simply costing way too much now anyway?
You may spend £1500 - £2000 and get a good one. On the other hand you may spend a lot less [say £250 to £500] on another make and get a beauty...?


Yes! If you are just looking at them as an instrument, they aren't good value. I've got a good one, and that's enough to stratch the itch for me. But I can see why people want to 'collect' them, and then you are into a completely different set of values, which are only partly to do with the intrinsic quality of the instrument. Without doubt you can spend 1500 - 2000 a lot better than on the average LP. Almost anything halfway decent from the East, for example. Duesenbergs. Hand-built UK luthier stuff. But for some people the LP vibe is worth the extra. There's no reasoning with it. You are either a victim of this disease or not. (I have been, but I'm cured, praise the Lord 8) )

The only note of sanity you can hope to inject is to say: find a GOOD one, don't just buy any old bit of rubbish just because it has Gibson on the headstock.
Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: shaman on March 09, 2007, 03:08:38 AM
ok..1 word: RE-SALE...realize..I am a lefty...(we cant really shop around..) I have owned quite a few LP's...1 thing I can say,regardless of quality-I have MADE $$$$ off of each one-recently sold an 81 Custom..Norlin job...doubled me $$$$-bought an awesome standard and some BKP's with profit....I live 1 hour from the Nashville plant-I had issues when they went "Musician's Fiend..."I have visited a few times since...the quality is DEAD ON...had them make me a custom j 200 acoustic..wine red..talked to the dude in Bozeman-he kept me posted thru whole process-could not ask for anything better-gonna pay my kid's college funds, UNLESS HE TAKES UP GUITAR,TOOOO-
Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: shaman on March 09, 2007, 03:09:10 AM
ok..re-sale..not exactly one word
Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: Muzzzz on March 09, 2007, 08:30:52 AM
^  :lol:
Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: snipesace on March 13, 2007, 04:12:11 PM
like everyone has said, shop around, I have seen many a terrible les paul, but I have also seen many increadible ones.  As for the construction, better to get 2002 standard model than...well any standard since 1970  :P  just  be sure that when you find one you like, you really play it and give it a good run down, as for the money..well, if you have the money and it is worth it to you, then that is really all that counts. just don't get suckered into buying a premium plus model, I have seen tons of standards with better tops than the premium plus models.
Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: Antag on March 13, 2007, 04:57:41 PM
Quote from: FELINEGUITARS
Find one that you like the look and feel of and consider keeping enough money in reserve to have it given a pro fret dress and set up - or even a refret.


Of course, the real issue here is whether a guitar costing >£1200 should need any of these things.

Quote from: FELINEGUITARS
We are doing just that for Antag with a couple of his LPs
Making a good guitar into a great guitar


FWIW, I followed none of the advice in my first post when I got my Goldtop.  I've always really wanted a Goldtop so when I saw a 60s neck std in that finish I had a rush of blood to the head :)

So I got Feline to refret it for me.  He made a fantastic job of it, so good in fact that it's nicer to play than my Desert Burst (a very nice Les Paul that I did take care buying after a long search).  So now that's getting the Feline treatment too :lol:

I probably won't get my Vintage Burst refretted though.  That one is a gorgeous Les Paul & the most immaculate fret job I've seen on any Gibson...
Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: Gary on March 13, 2007, 05:47:12 PM
Good advice, guys. I certainly plan to try extensively before I put down that much cash. I did that with my Strat and I've got a guitar that I still love two years down the road.

I'm not overly bothered about going to places like Denmark Street as they all have a price match policy. I used that when I got my Strat from Turnkey - they dropped nearly £100 without blinking then I had to haggle over a set of strap locks costing £13 (They eventually gave in when I pointed out that Fender's website included them in the spec!). I've also had outstanding customer service from vintage and rare which is unusual in that part of town.

I'd be interested to know why snipesace thinks the 2002 models are any better than 70's models?
Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: richardmca on March 13, 2007, 05:55:15 PM
Quote
I'd be interested to know why snipesace thinks the 2002 models are any better than 70's models?


So would I. I know that 'sucking in the 70s' wasn't confined to the Stones, and I've had some of the most comically useless strats from that era, but I've also got a great LP from 1972. Can you generalise totally about these things? I think you can pick up bargains from these unfashionable periods if you are prepared to try them.
Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: Twinfan on March 13, 2007, 06:23:26 PM
There are great and awful guitars from any era.  It's just that the seventies had more than it's share of awful ones.  Try them all, you might find a great one.
Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: Kilby on March 13, 2007, 07:26:14 PM
Vintage & Rare and Wunjo always seem to be decent folks (compared with the rest of that bloody street)

Echoing everybody else, try every LP type guitar you can find, including Tokais and Gordon Smith (amongst others). Yeah I know you want a Gibson, but if you try everything you will get a much better idea of the neck, weight etc that you definately want from a Gibson.

I would also suggest looking into the New Kings Road Vintage Guitar  Emporium who carry a lot of Gibsons http://newkingsroadguitars.co.uk/

I also second the suggestion to head down to Pete Cooks.
Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: dave_mc on March 13, 2007, 07:36:00 PM
Quote from: Kilby
Vintage & Rare and Wunjo always seem to be decent folks (compared with the rest of that bloody street)

Echoing everybody else, try every LP type guitar you can find, including Tokais and Gordon Smith (amongst others). Yeah I know you want a Gibson, but if you try everything you will get a much better idea of the neck, weight etc that you definately want from a Gibson.

I would also suggest looking into the New Kings Road Vintage Guitar  Emporium who carry a lot of Gibsons http://newkingsroadguitars.co.uk/

I also second the suggestion to head down to Pete Cooks.


+1 on the first two paragraphs. in wunjo they actually ask if you want to try stuff, unlike some of the other shops... that was quite a shock, coming from shops with big notices displaying stuff like "DON'T ASK TO TRY IF YOU AREN'T GOING TO BUY" and guff like that. V&R are nice too.


not +1 on the last two as I haven't been to either of those shops.  :lol: EDIT: i'm sure they're great, just I can't personally recommend them. Nice to see you back too, rob, hope everything's going ok. :drink:
Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: Alex on March 15, 2007, 10:52:40 PM
Read this post and can only advise you to check out guitars before buying. So visiting a couple of shops sounds a very good idea to me.

I personally like the LesPaul shape a lot, but I get back pain from heavy guitars so I settled on nice ESP.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/theonlywarlock/IMGP1239.jpg)
Thing is, IMO they are really nice guitars with great playability, but the stock EMG pickups seriously limit the guitar's tonal potential. So I changed them. It weighs 3,7 kg with strap.
Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: CaffeineJunkie on March 16, 2007, 12:46:37 AM
^ i'm the opposite, i love how heavy my LP is, makes it feel like you can throw it across the stage without breaking it
Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: noodleplugerine on March 16, 2007, 07:43:34 AM
Quote from: Alex
Read this post and can only advise you to check out guitars before buying. So visiting a couple of shops sounds a very good idea to me.

I personally like the LesPaul shape a lot, but I get back pain from heavy guitars so I settled on nice ESP.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/theonlywarlock/IMGP1239.jpg)
Thing is, IMO they are really nice guitars with great playability, but the stock EMG pickups seriously limit the guitar's tonal potential. So I changed them. It weighs 3,7 kg with strap.

God that's gorgeous.
Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: Kepu on March 16, 2007, 02:40:05 PM
Quote from: noodleplugerine
God that's gorgeous.


+10000000

with that kind of lighting... just wow :o
Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: nfe on March 16, 2007, 02:43:25 PM
Quote from: Alex
Read this post and can only advise you to check out guitars before buying. So visiting a couple of shops sounds a very good idea to me.

I personally like the LesPaul shape a lot, but I get back pain from heavy guitars so I settled on nice ESP.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/theonlywarlock/IMGP1239.jpg)
Thing is, IMO they are really nice guitars with great playability, but the stock EMG pickups seriously limit the guitar's tonal potential. So I changed them. It weighs 3,7 kg with strap.



I would love the look of the esp eclipses if they didn't insist on putting those GODDAMN HIDEOUS INLAYS ON THEM!!!!!
Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: Alex on March 16, 2007, 05:51:30 PM
Thanks for the compliments! I actually like the inlay a lot! I like it more than those trapez things on my SG. But it's a matter of taste.

Now imagine how this would look with black-covered BKP! I am thinking of a custom set of blackcovered BKP with gold screws. The only thing is, I am actually really happy with the sound, so the change would probably be more cosmetic and then it's just too expensive.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/theonlywarlock/IMG054.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v281/theonlywarlock/IMG061.jpg)
Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: Philly Q on March 16, 2007, 06:00:44 PM
Quote from: Alex
Now imagine how this would look with black-covered BKP! I am thinking of a custom set of blackcovered BKP with gold screws. The only thing is, I am actually really happy with the sound, so the change would probably be more cosmetic and then it's just too expensive.

I think it looks terrific with the zebra pickups, to be honest.  Black covers would be... too much black.
Title: Les Paul advice
Post by: snipesace on March 19, 2007, 04:24:58 PM
If it has the voloute on the back of the headstock, stay away, not that its terrible, but, it is in no means a "vintage" or collectors guitar that should have a price tag near a new gibson.   I've got a couple books on the history of gibson and what not, talk to gibson reps every now and then.  I am sure there are plenty of wonderful 60's 70's 80's and 90's standards out there, I just meant that the 90's was when they slowly started to pull their act together (relativly speaking of course, we all know they still have major QC problems).   I believe someone mentioned Heritage guitars...many dealers have stopped carrying them because of their even worse QC issues since around 2001-2, some customers waiting up to 3 years for their guitars before finally canceling and going for other brands.