Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: TwilightOdyssey on March 12, 2007, 03:04:23 AM
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This is a matter of some debate among guitar players: What defines a player's tone, and I think the most common belief is that it's at least 50% player, and the rest of the lot (pickups, guitar, amp, effects) that make up the other half.
There are some who believe that up to 75% of a player's tone is in the pickups. I never thought I would be saying this but I agree with that theory.
Case in point:
My band was in the studio yesterday cutting basic tracks. Both myself and the other guitarist in my band were playing very different rigs.
I was playing an ash strat with a maple neck/fingerboard into a Splawn Quick Rod and Rivera 4x12. The other guitarist was playing a mahagony neck-through Schecter with rosewood fingerboard into a Marshall JCM2000 and Marshall 4x12. Apples and oranges all the way.
Both cabs were in iso rooms and mic'd the same way:
Close mic = SM57 into an API mic pre
Off axis close mic = 414 into an API mic pre
Further back mic = 421 into a Vintech (Neve clone mic pre)
Console was a Langley desk going into Apogee converters and then into Pro Tools HD. A very respectable signal chain!!
Jimmy and I use different guage strings used by different manufacturers. We play different picks of differing thicknesses. And our playing styles are polar opposites. (Jimmy's playing is lithe and fluid; I play with a much harder attack)
The only thing we have in common is our bridge pickup: The Cold Sweat.
And when we listened back to playback, in most places, it sounds like a single guitar playing. The tones are virtually identical!! I think that my brighter guitar and darker amp versus Jimmy's darker guitar and brighter amp essentially nulled out to a zero difference.
If I hadn't heard it with my own ears, I wouldn't have believed it!!
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I guess the Cold Sweat really made a difference then! When Jimmy had the EMG's there was a world of difference in the tone.
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This is a matter of some debate among guitar There are some who believe that up to 75% of a player's tone is in the pickups.
Ahh, the age old arguement. How I see it is that a large percentage (lets say 75%) of a GUITARS tone is through the pups. As for a players tone, that comes from the soul man.
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This is a matter of some debate among guitar ... There are some who believe that up to 75% of a player's tone is in the pickups.
Ahh, the age old arguement. How I see it is that a large percentage (lets say 75%) of a GUITARS tone is through the pups. As for a players tone, that comes from the soul man.
Are you saying that Jimmy and I have the same soul? :)
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interesting.
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:o :o :o :o :o :o :o :o
and here i am buying a new amp over a Warpig. darn!
although, i doubt the pickup would improve an MG!
well... maybe it would........ :? :? :? :? :?
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amp has more to do with it. play a warpig through a fender twin reverb and play it through a bogner uberschall and it's not going to sound even remotely similar
and playing is playing... it's just technique, not tone. sure, it might sound a little different, but it's just different playing style. tone is the sound timbre and nothing more
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I'm definitely coming round to the fact that pickups are extremely important (as long as you already have a good amp etc.). They're kind of the icing on the cake (and that's probably suggesting that they're less important than they really are, but I can't think of a better metaphor)- good pickups + good rig = awesome. poor pickups + good rig is still good, but you feel like there's something missing.
another thing that I'd say doesn't get mentioned enough is that it depends what you're playing- for example, if you're playing a piece that has a load of pinch harmonics (say anything by zakk), you're going to want a pickup rich in harmonics, while this wouldn't matter so much if you weren't.
Etc.
EDIT: I'd definitely say playing style is the most important, though I doubt too many would argue with that. But good gear/pickups can make you play better...
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good gear/pickups can make you play better...
AMEN. my practice amp makes me practice because it has good tone. my MG makes me storm out of my rehearsal room to practice with my little amp.
my mouth waters when playing through my practice amp, but it dries up when playing through the MG.
i could go on and on, but you get the picture.
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^ yeah, i was getting so annoyed with my old avt, I was practising less and less...
anyway, back on to the topic at hand, I guess, don't want to hijack ben's thread.
:drink:
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amp has more to do with it. play a warpig through a fender twin reverb and play it through a bogner uberschall and it's not going to sound even remotely similar
well.. you are currently comparing apples to oranges man.. a REALLY high gain amp, to a very clean amp.
ben and jimmy were playing through amps that had a similar gain structure, power and differed pretty much only in tone complexity and "color" of tone
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ahh,grasshopper...we all are searching for the holy grail of tone-I have played for 25 years(Yikes!!!) , and the search for me began in earnest just a few years ago-i had tones and rigs that worked-as long as I had a 4x12,tubes,and a Paul..it was ON!2 of my dear friends are mesa boogie disciples-they shared with me, on a cold dreary night, the magic of their fabled MArk IIc+ amps-my buddy lives amongst the tubes,transformers,chassis,etc....tis a beautiful mess...his very own tone farm..mad scientist for sure-they have turned me on to the GRAIL-we all seek it---I had to quit my job because of a congenital heart defect, so I turned my energies to music full time-I have been mixing,matching,buying,trading ,etc over the past few years-after i found my amp,effects,etc , it became time to fine tune that sound in my head-the BK's have become what I would consider a missing link-it has taught me that all variables are equally important-if something isnt quite right,figure it out and attack it-the recent purchase of the MM/CS combo has helped define my technique-I also own RY-so versatile--I am almost at tonal nirvana -the search is a BLAST-you get to play with all the stuff you wanted as a kid-you lose $$$...you make friends-it is like good Asian food...everything needs harmony and balance-all equally important..bottom line--enjoy every sandwich(W Zevon)-
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Well, I'd say it's equal parts player/guitar/pickups/amp.
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I'm suprised by TO's findings and guess they must be similar players in terms of attack/ style and the tone thats in their head- if you know what I mean. I always found that using different equipment may bring out different aspects of my tone but my basic tone never changes- I always sound like me!
I read somewhere about the time Ted Nugent had the opportunity to try out EVH's rig. Played a couple of bars and walked off in a deep depression!!
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i guess the notes you play are the most important...
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I'm suprised by TO's findings and guess they must be similar players in terms of attack/ style and the tone thats in their head- if you know what I mean. I always found that using different equipment may bring out different aspects of my tone but my basic tone never changes- I always sound like me!
Completely agree. I reckon TO and Jimmy play in a similar style. I don't think the same pickup would account for the similarities. I have a variety of guitars with very different pickups and I always sound like me. Just muddier, clear or with more gain!
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Having set up both TO and Jimmy's guitars and seen them play many times I can tell you that they have a totally different technique. TO uses heavy picks and really attacks the notes whereas Jimmy has a very light touch.
TO uses DR 10-46 pure blues, Jimmy uses 9,11,16,26,36,46 Hybrid Slinky.
Some of it is the gain structure on the amps too, because they are both using a lot of gain but I know that a lot of it is the Cold Sweat, because before the pickup change for Jimmy, they were worlds apart!
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hmmm, good thesis.
I would assume it is quite different depending on whether you are guitarist or not.
For a non-guitarist it's probably 10% gear and 90% player (assuming that the gear even if minor quality is well set up) but for a guitarist audience it's maybe closer to 40% gear and 60% player or sth?
hmmmm....
Or the other way round?
Forget my post, it's a shite theory :oops:
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good gear/pickups can make you play better...
AMEN. my practice amp makes me practice because it has good tone. my MG makes me storm out of my rehearsal room to practice with my little amp.
my mouth waters when playing through my practice amp, but it dries up when playing through the MG.
i could go on and on, but you get the picture.
I've always thought of mgs as practice amps anyway
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hmmm, good thesis.
I would assume it is quite different depending on whether you are guitarist or not.
For a non-guitarist it's probably 10% gear and 90% player (assuming that the gear even if minor quality is well set up) but for a guitarist audience it's maybe closer to 40% gear and 60% player or sth?
hmmmm....
Or the other way round?
Forget my post, it's a shitee theory :oops:
non guitarists don't give a cr@p about gear. i talk to my friends sometimes about gear, and they just either don't listen or do the classic "smile and nod"
i care about other guitarists gear if i like their sound.....
so your theory must be right!!
and Doog, yeah, they are basically big practice amps. big, horrible practice amps.
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I know it goes against conventional wisdom, but the proof is in the pudding as it were. Waiting for Phil to weigh in now that he's heard the flat tracks ...
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^ I think I read an article a while back where andy sneap was saying trivium would have sounded better on one of their albums with "X" pickup rather than the ones they did use...
I liked this thread. Bit of a change, got us all thinking. Nice job, ben. :drink:
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Personally I think compression plays a role when recording as to how similar two players might sound-the less playing dynamics that are present, ie with a heavily compressed tone, the harder it is to identify the players natural signature. In Iced Earth when we track, often Jon and I will use the same guitar and amp for continuity but our playing styles and more importantly tone on the same equipment is very different-the more compressed the tone, ie the higher gain stuff or hotter p/ups, the harder it is to tell us apart.The more dynamic material, usually with lower output pickups too, the differences in our tone are much more apparent even though we're playing the same gear and similar parts
Cold Sweat humbuckers, despite being medium output, can push an amp reasonably hard, especially if you're using hefty strings and digging in quite hard so I expect they're contributing to tightening things up nicely and getting you both tonally locked in.
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Having heard the rough mix, I can say 3 things
1) the song is incredibly tight - no wonder they sound like one guitar, I think that some people might not realise that there are 2 players!
2) unless you know the style of Ben (TO) and Jimmy, there is no way you can tell them apart
3) TO's tone is darker than usual, which I think contributes some of the similarity.
As Tim mentioned, when the gain is up and the dynamics are down, some tone goes out of the door. They are tracking a very hot signal and they do play the same phrases in many places. It shows how playing a song out helps when you come to track it in the studio. Everything is locked in place, the drums and bass are right in the pocket too. I suspect that in the final mix there might be a little more difference in the guitar tones, but that would be processing after the fact.
As a lower gain player, I like to let the guitar come through a bit more, and I am sure if they were playing at a lower gain setting there would be much more difference. Having said that, I am still amazed at the similarity between the sounds given the difference in equipment and style. However it is not going to make me sell any guitars or stop buying any more pickups!!!
Just waiting for my PG set - that will show TO tone :orcass:
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Just waiting for my PG set - that will show TO tone
Isn't that the one with the broken neck pickup? PDT_008
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:lol: not broken....................just different :lol: !