Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => Time Out => Topic started by: Twinfan on March 28, 2007, 02:16:25 PM
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I'm after a bit of advice here from any of the guitar finish experts please :)
I'm trying to get hold of a particular guitar that's relatively hard to get in the UK, and has now been discontinued by the manufacturer. There is one that has become available (possibly the last one?) but it has failed QC by the importer due to "lacquer lines" in the finish of the neck. The dealer I'm speaking to is taking the guitar anyway as it's a common issue with a nitro-cellulose finish and they're getting a discount.
They're prepared to offer the guitar to me with a further discount from their already competitive price with £100 off (roughly 10%-ish). I haven't seen the guitar as yet, but I'm very interested in it - especially with the extra discount.
Are lacquer lines in nitro-cellulose anything to be worried/concerned about? Is it purely a cosmetic issue, or something that may become worse in time?
Cheers for any advice :D
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I don't really know what they mean by "lacquer lines", unless perhaps there are places where you can see uneven colour under the clear top coats?
If that was the case it wouldn't get any worse of course, but maybe it's something completely different. :?
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I'd imagine it's where some of the laquer has run where they were over-zealous and applied too much laquer when finishing. It'll be a cosmetic issue, but depending on the size of the run, you may with to take a little Wet & Dry/Sandpaper to it and then polish it up to make it better. It may leave a cosmetic mark after, but seeing as it'll probably be on the back of the neck, you should be ok with it. If it was that bad, chances are they wouldn't sell it :)
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Cheers guys. The guitar should arrive at the dealers next week so I'll know a bit more then. I guess the dealer may tidy it up before selling? I'm assuming they won't be selling a guitar with ridges of lacquer on the back of the neck, so maybe the distributer has done the tidying ready for sale and has reduced the price accordingly.
Is a £100 discount from a £1300 guitar sufficient enough to cover the cosmetic blemishes????
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Just had a thought - is it a Gibson?
Maybe they're talking about that "ridge" you can feel with your thumb along the line where the binding meets the neck? I've had that "problem", to some extent, on all my bound-neck Gibsons.
I wouldn't have thought the dealer would do anything to tidy up the finish, unless you ask them to. Is there any chance you can inspect it before agreeing the price?
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Yep, it's a Gibson. All I know at the moment is what I've said above, which is the info from Rosetti to the dealer.
The dealer has stated the price they're happy with, but if the blemish is bad then I guess I can haggle further. I suppose it could be at the neck joint in which case it's a very minor problem. I guess I just had visions of a 12inch lacquer ridge down the side of the neck!
I suppose I'll just have to wait until the guitar comes in next week. They did say it was a common problem though so maybe it is the neck joint Phil?
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I know over time nitrocellulose can have a cracked appearance, and it might even be a desireable thing to some, as it gives a nice vintage/marble like finish. I would give it a look in person if it is possible before buying.
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Time will tell I suppose, Dave.
I was going to say it can't be anything too serious, but then I thought about the cr@p Gibson/Rosetti sometimes let through Quality Control... :wink:
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Get them to send you pictures of it. It could be that it is in a place where it is not obvious but it is worth trying to squeeze a few more quid off. Frankly, it wouldn't bother me too much-could add to the character of the guitar.
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Get them to send you pictures of it.
I asked them earlier when the guitar arrives to do just that Mr 38th ;)
Frankly, it wouldn't bother me too much-could add to the character of the guitar.
Exactly what I'm thinking...
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i have a couple of older gibsons with lacquer cracks. mostly on the body, but one also has them on the neck. if i remember rightly they're caused by quick changes of temperature, where the wood expands and contracts quicker than the finish.
anyway, they've never caused me any problems and i'm happy enough with their appearance, but i'm not sure i'd be too happy to see them on a brand new guitar, if these cracks are the lines they're talking about.
as others have said, have a good look and think before you buy, and it might be worth it to look extra unsure and see if they'll knock more off the price! :wink:
good luck with it anyway, you never know, it might be the best guitar you ever play and a friend for life!
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I got my viper with a crack on the horn and I still say it's the best buy I've ever made.
If it's saving you as much money as it did me, then buy buy buy buy.
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Well the guitar has arrived at the dealer and I've spoken to them over the phone. It looks like the guitar has had a replacement nut at some point, and when the old one was removed it's chipped the lacquer on either side of the fingerboard edge. It's very, very minor and doesn't affect playability at all. They said it would be hard to photograph so I should just call in and see it for myself.
They've put the guitar on one side for me until I can get to them on Tuesday. Sounds like they might have a sale ;)
Anyone guessed what guitar it is yet?
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I'm gunna say an SG Deluxe or that Angus Young signature.
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Close - very close - but not quite...
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Then some other sort of Gibson SG? :P
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Correct - but what?????
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Supreme?
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Nope. I'm a bit more traditional ;)
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A discontinued signature SG... (you said we were very close when mentionned the Angus Young sign...)...
The Pete Townshend sign SG? :?:
It's traditionnal right? (2 P-90s)
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Nope - I'll put you all out of your misery before you get bored! It's one of these:
(http://image.www.rakuten.co.jp/gakki-genki/img10522822929.jpeg)
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Pffft.
I should get a cookie or summin, can't really get closer than saying an Angus Young sig, since I didn't even know those things were in production still :<
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Damn, I was still working on my guesses! I was going to say Pete Townshend or Elliot Easton SG (although I'm not sure if you can get the latter right-handed).
Lovely SG! :D
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They do still make the odd very small run of '61 reissues with vibrato, but not very many at all.
The EE Sig comes in right handers too Phil. Bit out of my price range though :)
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The EE Sig comes in right handers too Phil. Bit out of my price range though :)
Yeah, I forgot you mentioned the price earlier in the thread :oops: . It's nice, though, that Pelham Blue colour. I'll buy one if they do a production model.
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They do still make the odd very small run of '61 reissues with vibrato, but not very many at all.
The EE Sig comes in right handers too Phil. Bit out of my price range though :)
Does this mean I get an imaginary e-cookie?!
Or is it an iCookie... Damn Apple, and their iNnventions.
Or is it iApple >_>
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They do still make the odd very small run of '61 reissues with vibrato, but not very many at all.
The EE Sig comes in right handers too Phil. Bit out of my price range though :)
Does this mean I get an imaginary e-cookie?!
Or is it an iCookie... Damn Apple, and their iNnventions.
Or is it iApple >_>
Hasn't your mother warned you about accepting cookies from strangers
Better check your web browser's settings
Mac user here too!
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AHHH THEY'RE EVERYWHERE!
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:lol:
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Well I've been to Peter Cooks today to check out the SG and it was very nice. Apart from the completely knackered headstock area where a mokey with a sledgehammer replaced the original nut, the scuffed case and the loose volume knob :evil:
I could live with badly scuffed case and even the nut (once I'd had my local luthier tidy it up a bit) and I could sort out the lose knob myself. However, they weren't prepared to budge on price. A £100 discount does NOT make up for condition of the guitar and I wasn't paying £1199 for it.
I also went to Denmark Street to try and find another '61 reissue SG. Not one in sight. In fact, hardly any Gibsons anywhere. Absolutely LOADS of Epiphones though - there must have been 30+ in one shop alone.
Is there ANYWHERE worth shopping for guitars any more?
*RANT OVER*
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Sadly to say not, just the net =/
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i have this exact problem. perhaps if shopping on the net didn't exist, then there would be more/better stocked guitar shops around where i live.
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It's cr*p. I cannot find a '61 reissue Gibson SG in stock anywhere reasonably local. Do people not try before they buy any more??? Loads of places can "order me one". No good!
I'm going to visit a non-authorised dealer to try a Custom Shop SG when he gets more in stock instead...
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The best I could find was http://www.guitarvillage.co.uk/product-list.asp?manuid=120&catid=3
Apart from Wunjo, Vintage & Rare and the guy upstairs from Music Ground (tho had quite a few assorted SGs about 2 months ago), Denmark St should be avoided :(
rob...
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Wunjo was great to be honest - nicest shop on Denmark Street :)
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Wunjo was great to be honest - nicest shop on Denmark Street :)
second to vintage and rare :P
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Well I've been to Peter Cooks today to check out the SG and it was very nice. Apart from the completely knackered headstock area where a mokey with a sledgehammer replaced the original nut, the scuffed case and the loose volume knob :evil:
So the "lacquer lines" turned out to mean "bodged nut replacement"?
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Yep, well and truly. Chips both sides of the nut edge, down to the bare wood. And the headstock overlay was damaged too. Really, really, bad job. I couldn't believe they wouldn't move from only £100 off. Thought a sale would be worth more than that? They must be confident some schmucko will pay it. Unbelievable, as I'm sure Rosetti sold it to them at MUCH less than £100 off, given that the wararnty on the finish would be null and void...
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I'm SOOOOOO angry :evil:
Peter Cooks now have the guitar on their website for £999 :!: They don't mention the scuffed case or loose volume pot in the listing, which they should.
They tried to get me to buy it for £1199, and when I tried to haggle they just said they couldn't move on the price!!! Bunch of theiving scum monkeys. I might have paid more than the current asking price for it if they'd knocked some off it while I was in the shop, but instead they tried to gamble on me paying out top money for a guitar with a botched repair after I'd travelled down from Manchester. I thought they were supposedly a decent dealer?
Makes my blood boil... :x
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I also went to Denmark Street to try and find another '61 reissue SG. Not one in sight. In fact, hardly any Gibsons anywhere. Absolutely LOADS of Epiphones though - there must have been 30+ in one shop alone.
Is there ANYWHERE worth shopping for guitars any more?
*RANT OVER*
Address your letters of complaint to rosetti, hands down the worst distributer in the music retail business. By fucking miles.
"Hi rosetti, can you give me a timescale on delivery if I order a Gibson Les Paul Custom in Arctic White today"
"Not really, we don't know. Might be three four months, might be a year"
"Cheers"
Repeat to fade.
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Yep, they're truly awful.
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Apologies - I take back my comments on Peter Cooks above. There WAS a reasonable explanation for the situation.
Oh, and, err, I seem to have bought the guitar. Ahem. :oops:
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you've got some explaining to be doing, sonny
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HaHaHaHa..... :lol:
Now then David, spit it out! What's the story?
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Sorry guys :oops:
In brief:
* Boss speaks to Rosetti about a '61 SG with Maestro vibrola for me
* Rossetti say one left only with lacquer lines in finish
* Boss orders guitar for stock and sets price at £1199
* Staff at Peter Cooks not allowed to negotiate on price
* Boss goes to Frankfurt music show without seeing guitar
* I visit, guitar not as described, staff can't move on price
* I walk away in bad mood
* Boss arrives back, sees guitar, kicks Rosetti for further discount
* Price reduced to £999
* I speak to Boss, get story, decide what to do
* I get brand new Gibson case, fixed volume knob, free delivery and an accessory pack plus the SG
Should be with me on Tuesday :D
The guitar is very "sweet" sounding in contrast to my harsher Epi which is great for Angus stuff. What I wanted in a second SG was a warmer tone and the '57 classics sounded pretty good, but if I get sick of them I'll get some Stormy Mondays. In addition the guitar has an amazing flamed mahogany(!) neck :o
My local luthier says he can do a localised repair on the missing lacquer around the nut and a full set up for around £80. Result!
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And all's well that ends well! :D
We'll be wanting pics when it's all fixed up, of course...
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Of course ;)
You gotta see the back of the neck Phil - it swung the sale for me :)
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Glad things worked out for ya Bro!
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It's put me an an SG mood - I've been playing my Pete Townshend this evening! :D
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I'm glad it worked out allright in the end.
If only the sales muppets had mentioned that only the boss could negociate, it would have made for a much better experience for everybody concerned.
Rob...
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Exactly. I've mentioned that to the boss as "feedback" and he was genuinely apologetic for the hassle I had.
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I would just like to point out that flamed wood in necks on factory made guitars is not always a desirable thing. In this case i would have been more cautious because:
. . . mahogany is a softer wood than most other neck woods used in guitars (unless you count some of the old cheapo archtops with poplar necks). . .
. . . and flamed wood is structurally weaker than straight grained wood.
. . . SG's have weaker neck/body joins than most guitars because most of the neck is free of the body and the tenon is relatively short
. . . Gibson generally make there necks out of one peice of wood
. . . i am fairly sure gibson will not have added any extra reinforcement to help stabilise the figured neck
Figured (flamed/quilted/birdseye/spalted) woods are great for adding visual interest to a guitar but there are certain areas where a little bit more thought is needed.
I am not saying flamed wood cannot be used in necks - i use it myself all the time. But if using figured woods i generally make a laminated neck with 3 or more peices and i always include a two way truss rod and dual carbon fibre reinforcement bars on my guitars anyway. Although i will say the lengths i go to are probaby overkill - which suggest i worry about this issue a bit too much :wink:
I am sure your SG will be fine if well looked after, but i would expect the neck to be a little more flexible than usual so it may need more regular truss rod tweaks because of this. I would also avoid heavy gauge strings.
It sounds like you got a good deal and i am not trying to shite on that - i just worry when i hear people touting figured necks as a feature when all it really means is that good stock of quarter sawn, straight grained neck woods is getting harder to find - especially when a factory focuses on one endangered species a little too mcuh. Just to put it in perspective there has been a recent ban on importing (some speices of) mahogany into the EU
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Thanks Wez, err I think? ;)
I'll be using 10s and the guitar will not be my regular gigger so I think it'l be OK. Interesting what you say about the reduced stability of flamed woods though...
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Just to illustrate my point with flamed wood here is a very quick and rough sketch of two planks of wood.
(http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e31/WezV/wood1.jpg)
On the top plank the grain runs nicely through the whole length of the plank. In reality this does not allways occur and there is usually some curve or runout in the grain because trees twist as they grow. but it is what we should aim for with neck wood
the plank on the bottom shows a flamed piece. Flamed wood has wavy grain, i didnt bother to draw it all but you can see that not all the grain stays within the borders of plank. This means there will be less grain running the whole length of the neck and more potential weakspots/flexability.
On the peice i drew most of the grain would still be running the length of the neck and it would probably work fine but would not be as stiff as the top peice - like yours i assume.
On more figured woods (imagine a PRS style quilt) the grain would almost be zig-zagging down the whole length of the board and it would have almost no longitudinal strength because there would be no grain that ran the whole length of the plank, it would be be completely unsuitable for a neck.
Its a bit of a simplified explanation but i just wanted to try and explain something about wood choice when making necks. Obviously it all depends on the actual peice of wood because they are all different
I remember reading a little story about our facination with figured wood instruments a few years back... not sure how true it is but here goes.
Our facination wiith flamed maple on instruments goes back to desirable violins by people like stradavarius. People started to associate the wood with the fantastic tones these instruments are famous for. They start to believe that these great violin makers where using very expensive figured maple for their violins, probably sawn by virgins on a full moon or something. Basically flamed maple became a sign of a quality instrument
The truth . . . violin makers used the wood they could get . . . the stradavarius story i heard suggested that he used maple from broken boat oars that had washed up on shore that the turkish had sold to the armenians (or the other way round). Due to the rivalry between the countries the turks would always try and sell the armenians the lower quality oars . . . in other words the flamed ones . . . they snapped and got washed up on shore. . . those damn economical luthiers started picking up the scr@ps to make instruments from.
Thats probably more than anyone needed to know about flamed wood so i will leave it there . . .
. . . and nobody get me started on swamp ash!!! I pay so bloody much for the stuff and only 30 years ago most wood yards would sell it cheap because its considered inferier to normal ash for most other things!!!
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Well the SG has arrived today :D
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r267/junkacct/SGs.jpg)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r267/junkacct/Back.jpg)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r267/junkacct/Neck.jpg)
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Stonking! :D
Did you take a pic of that pesky nut?
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I've just got the ones Peter Cooks sent me. It's actually not as bad as I'd remembered, which is nice :) Once I've worn these strings out I'll get it touched up and a full setup done...
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r267/junkacct/611.jpg)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r267/junkacct/612.jpg)
(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r267/junkacct/617.jpg)
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Very nice ;)
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looks sexy!
screams angus!
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Beautiful guitar bro!
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Cheers guys :D
It's actually a pretty rare guitar. It was a special order model from '99 to '03 but not very many were made/ordered. Then there was a small batch of around 48 done in 2006, of which mine is one of them. These were sent to some of the bigger dealers in the US, UK and Japan.
The only way you'll get an SG with a factory fitted vibrola now is via the Custom Shop.
I've just been playing it and it's a little cracker. I actually like the '57 Classic pickups too. Sorry Tim :oops:
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I've just been playing it and it's a little cracker. I actually like the '57 Classic pickups too. Sorry Tim :oops:
Looks gorgeous dude - It'd be worried about those nut cracks spreading and the headstock falling off though! :O
Are you not gonna try the riff raffs in it? you might find that the 57s suck in comparison and the extra tone is coming from the better quality wood of the gibson?
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I have to say thats a nice pair of SGs
Hope you enjoy the new one even more than you enjoyed the Epi
Rob...
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Cheers Rob :D
Indy - I'm keeping the Riff Raffs in the Epi as it sounds great and it will stay as my main gigging guitar. If I decide I don't like the '57s in the Gibbo after a while, then I'll get some Stormy Mondays. I'd like to have something a bit different. The '57s are Alnico II PAF replicas so they're roughly in the SM ballpark. They aren't as clear as BKPs obviously but they're quite musical.
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What a pair.
I want another SG now! :D
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haha i've been craving a SG today - i want it in a faded Brown (like the SG special faded), with unpolished nickel covers, neck binding a kind of vintage cream/yellow colour like on my ibanez, and a '61 pickguard. Sweet.
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i want one of those SG Supreme jobbies, in Trans Flamed Black!
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haha i've been craving a SG today - i want it in a faded Brown (like the SG special faded), with unpolished nickel covers, neck binding a kind of vintage cream/yellow colour like on my ibanez, and a '61 pickguard. Sweet.
Here you go Indy and only £200:
(http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/shop_image/product/8eeb89646d44316b1f3ad72935eb7003.jpg)
I want one of those SG Supreme jobbies, in Trans Flamed Black!
My missus loves those and wanted me to get one instead of the '61. It's too modern looking for my taste, but it is a looker:
(http://www.dolphinmusic.co.uk/shop_image/product/6b397a4b3046b0e54b43de4027a7af65.jpg)
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congrats on the SG Twinfan, looks very nice!
as to those SG Supremes, i like that they have 24 frets, but i'm getting a bit sick of flamed maple, would love to see a simple cherry red one.
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my mate Bob has one of those Supreme's in a blueburst - it's beautiful. He got it for a good price; i could never justify paying RRP for it though, especially when being such a thin body, i'm not sure a maple top does anything for the tone. You're pretty much paying for sexy looks.
Twinfan: those pics you just posted arent showing on my PC; but i'm pretty interested to see what the pic was of... I'm guessing a epi faded g400. am i right?
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Once I've worn these strings out I'll get it touched up and a full setup done...
I wonder why they had to replace the original nut? It's a horrible job, not only have they buggered up the paintwork, but they've done no finishing work on the nut itself, leaving the edges square like that. Ugh. :( I'd be desperate to take a file to it! :lol:
I actually like the '57 Classic pickups too. Sorry Tim :oops:
I like the '57 Classics on my newly-acquired Orville LP too. Best-sounding Gibson pickups I've heard, I think. However, I don't really want a vintage tone on this one, so I'll be swapping them out in due course.
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To be fair - getting those nuts out on Gibsons is really tricky because
1) they are glued in well
2) They end up also glued to the headstock veneer /overlay which come away too when you remove the nut
3)They lacquer right over the side of the nut so it is doubly hard to get out
4)The nut actually sits deeper than the fingerboard and binding so you end up making it look messy even if you are really careful
BUT - you don't want that in a NEW guitar - so I'm with you on this one
Just commenting that it is bloody tricky getting them out
We usually have to saw through them down the middle and collapse them with specially adapted pliers - not elegant , but a necessary evil
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+1
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Far enough, but even if you made a mess (and I know there's a good chance I would :( ) you'd tidy it up, wouldn't you Jonathan?
And I know you wouldn't leave the new nut looking so unfinished. They've just been lazy.
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Far enough, but even if you made a mess (and I know there's a good chance I would :( ) you'd tidy it up, wouldn't you Jonathan?
And I know you wouldn't leave the new nut looking so unfinished. They've just been lazy.
Absolutely - but then I'm a professional :o :D
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That Surpeme looks stunning.
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Indy - yep, it's a Faded G400. They no longer have neck bindings but there are a few old spec ones knocking about in shops.
Phil/Jonathan - yep, the nut isn't even finished off properly I know. I told Peter Cooks to leave it so my luthier can sort it all out as I trust his work.
The original nut was replaced by a Rosetti numpty because the original was cut too low and it failed QC. Well and truly fails it now! Saved me a bunch of cash though which is cool ;)
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Nice score Twinfan. I'd love an SG myself. I've been looking into the Japanese line Epiphone SGs which have nice lacquer finish and they are only about £450 shipped 8) Can't afford a 61 and I haven't yet come across a faded special that I liked.
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Look really nice . . . and the flame in that mahogany neck would not be enough to make me worry about stability.
I hate the nuts on factory made guitars, its forgiveable on cheaper brands but gibson should really be getting this right by now!! The lacquer chips are just a sign of laziness - it would have taken less than a minute to fetch a sharp razorblade and score around the nut before removing it. Luckily its a relatively easy fix and the guitar will be better with a proffesionaly cut nut anyway
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Thanks Wez - that's what I thought. I think I'll get a Tusq one while I've got the opportunity.
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Tusq's works pretty well, i like it a lot - but real unbleached bone is where it is at for me at the moment. . . well, apart from the awfull smell it gives off when you cut it.
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I have rather strong GAS for one of these SGs (thought it'd be better with the smaller pickguard, bigger looks kinda cheap to me), or one in creamy vintage white.
(http://img159.imageshack.us/img159/562/theoldblackandamps018nh8.jpg)
I'll have to get one soon, but I also want a V - want to try to start up a UFO tribute, but you cant do that without a V! :lol:
Are the neck joints/headstocks on SGs really as weak as I've read?
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They are weaker than a Les Paul, but they're not paper weak! Like everything, if you look after it, it'll be fine :D
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Are the neck joints/headstocks on SGs really as weak as I've read?
Its weak compared to other designs but still perfectly adequate - just dont drop it!!!
Gibson are notorius for broken headstocks because they insist on making the necks out of one peice of wood which means the grain is not going the best way at the headstock transition. Problem is - if they did it any other way people wouldnt buy it, most gibson buyers are after a gibson built the traditional way!!
Older SG's had more serious problems because the neck stuck completely out of the body and the neck tenon (the bit thats glued in) was quite short and had a neck pickup routed into it so there was actually very little wood holding the neck in place. After a while gibson moved the neck into the body a little more to streghthen this area but it can still be a little more flexible than other designs. Les paul himself thought it was a less stable design and thats one of the reasons often quoted for him wanting his name taking of of them.
I still want one because there is nothing quite as cool as an SG in that beautifull red!!
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I still want one because there is nothing quite as cool as an SG in that beautifull red!!
Ain't that the truth ;)
It wasn't Angus that actually got me really interested in SGs, I always preferred the Les Paul (thanks to Slash). It was Paul Weller:
(http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/41994000/jpg/_41994740_weller_getty416.jpg)
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Hey, just wondered what SG stands for. I've never really thought about it.
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Hey, just wondered what SG stands for. I've never really thought about it.
I was always told Solid Guitar
On the mention of nice (current) SG versions, I really like the Goddess range, though I would lose the chrome controls (and the stock pickups)
Rob...
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Yep, solid guitar is right.
Goddess? Isn't that the girls version :P
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Yep, solid guitar is right.
Goddess? Isn't that the girls version :P
Yeah, me like girls :)
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i have heard 'standard guitar' spouted as the meaning of SG as well as the more common 'solid guitar'.
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Soiled Gusset?
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I believe it's standard guitar.
From 60 on it was the "Les Paul Standard", then Les Paul pulled his name.
Confusingly, though, some older Juniors were called "SG" on the trussplate well before that.
In memory of Frank Zappa, though, I vote for Shut up and play yer Guitar.