Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Doadman on April 17, 2007, 10:11:30 AM
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OK, so at last I've managed to save enough to get my BKP's and now it's time to save for my next indulgence :D
I figure to get the best out of my new pups I should invest in a couple of decent pedals but this is an area I know very little about unfortunately. I only have the one guitar so it needs to be versatile so I'm assuming I'll need two pedals to do what I want. I play quite a range, from modern high gain stuff like A7X, through classic 70's and 80's Rock/Metal like Iron Maiden/Black Sabbath/Deep Purple/Diamond Head/Thin Lizzy etc to Blues like BB King, Eric Clapton and Gary Moore. Finally, as I now have Cold Sweat pups, a John Sykes sound on the song of that name would be nice too :wink:
Pedals I've been considering to do this job are:
BD-2 Blues Driver
MT-2 Metal Zone
OS-2 Overdrive/Distortion
Distortus Maximus
Metal Muff
Some kind of Tube Screamer
These are just my initial thoughts so you don't need to restrict your comments to these pedals. The question is simple (relatively), which two pedals should I buy?
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Unless you're 12 - 16 years of age, I wouldn't recommend the metal zone.
From your list and what you want to play, I would suggest the blues driver dut not the stock boss. Spend a couple of extra bux for the Keeley blues driver.
If you want some kind of tube screamer, the HBE Power Screamer would be nice.
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What amp are you playing though??? How much gain does it have in itself???
Given an amp with at least some gain (i.e. not toally clean) I'd suggest a DOD 250V overdrive reissue for the lower gain blusier (Moore, Clapton) and rockier (Lizzy, Purple)) stuff. I use one in front of my Klipps in YC/DC and it's a very natural and transparent overdrive. Simple electronics that don't colour your guitar's tone, works well with 'buckers and single coils (something a lot of overdrives don't do) and the 9v batteries last for ages. Cheap pedal too. Only slight downside is that you need an awkward power supply if you're not using batteries.
For the heavier stuff I'd like to know what you settle on! I'm looking out for something similar at the moment and the EH Metal Muff is the one that's caught my eye. Not sure if it's more "fuzz" than "distortion" though? I currently use a Marshall DriveMaster.
With regard to Tubescreamers, I only find them good for solo boosts. I think the tone gets too smooth and compressed for a good rhythm sound.
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Firstly, I'm sad to say that I am considerably older than 12 - 16!
The Keeley Blues Driver sounds really good; would anyone know where I can buy them in the UK or would it have to be shipped from the States?
(Edit: Scrub that last bit, I just found the thread for it on this forum. It's not cheap at £125 but it certainly sounds good.)
As for the amp I use, it's a Crate GT65. It's solid state and has 3 channels for clean, overdrive (they call it the rhythm channel) and high gain (they call this one the 'solo' channel). The clean channel is good, which is why I bought it; the overdrive is OK and I'm not so convinced about the high gain channel as it lacks edge.
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to be honest mate if you're looking to show off the tone of your BKPs the first thing you need to get is a good valve amp. A solid state amp just can't show off the dynamics, harmonics, and clarity of BKPs in the way valves do.
Pedals should be thought of as luxuries to hone your tone and make tweaks to it, whereas an amp is vital, and will provide the basis of your sound.
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I did consider a valve amp at the time but as I'm mostly a home player I reasoned that I'd never get it cranked up enough to drive the valve properly. I did also look at a couple of amps with valve pre-amps as a compromise but wasn't entirely happy with the Vox and the Crate I bought sounded a hell of alot better than the version they do with a valve pre-amp. I chose this one because, right or wrong, it had a good clean tone that I figured I could use as a basis to build on using some good pedals. That's why I chose not to get a modelling amp at the time. I admit it's not a choice many would make and perhaps I was wrong but that was the reasoning at the time.
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What about this:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MXR-Zakk-Wylde-Overdrive-Distortion-ZW44-Guitar-Pedal_W0QQitemZ130100957861QQihZ003QQcategoryZ22669QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Kicks ass!
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I second Indy on the valve amp suggestion. The Laney LC15 is a great (and cheap) little valve amp and sounds good at lower volumes. You can then flavour the tone with pedals.
In my experience, solid state amps don't respond well to overdrive pedals.
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What about this:
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/MXR-Zakk-Wylde-Overdrive-Distortion-ZW44-Guitar-Pedal_W0QQitemZ130100957861QQihZ003QQcategoryZ22669QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Kicks ass!
Great pedal but I think it was meant to boost a valve amp.
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None of the pedals you mentioned are stuff I'd buy...I'd really get a nice valve amp first man.
And then:
Distortion: MI Audio Crunchbox
Overdrive: MI Audio Blues Pro
Then I'd be set hehe...
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If you want to keep your amp why not get a valve overdrive/distortion pedal, maybe even splash out on a Radial Tonebone.
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Because then his amp would still be Solid State and nothing would change. Except he'd have a pretty lightbulb on his pedalboard :lol:
WAY better to warm up some SS pedals through a valve amp then try to warm up an SS amp with valve pedals. Why do you think pedals are SS to start with? ;)
Ok because it's easier to build... but so are SS amps.
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for amps, the crate V series. NOT THE VTX, thos have built in effects which eat up the tube tone and make them sound like cr@p. The v series are very very nice sounding. Either that, or the peavey jack daniels, another sweet sounding amp
Now for overdrive, i reccommend a maxon OD 808. Into a clean amp, its perfect creamy bluesy overdrive; into a dirty amp it will drive your preamp harder with its boost, and also add an extra gainstage, perfect for anything in between rock and metal.
Distortion (if you think still think you need it after the maxon ;)) i'd say a metal muff or a distortius maximus. I'm personally not a boss pedal fan due to their lack of true bypass and low impedance inputs, makes your cleans sound less alive when the pedal is disengaged.
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I know I'm going to get laughed off the board here (especially with only 4 or 5 posts...!) - but:
I'm using a Randall 200W solid state RG200-G3 (OK, it's a "Valve-Dynamic" amp, but for almost all purposes, it can be considered solid state only), and it goes very well with my effects pedal.
Now I know it's not the most advanced pedal in the world, but I'm most happy with it: it's a Zoom G2.1u
It does take some tweaking to get the ideal sound, but I really like the build quality and versatility of this little pedal.
Based only on my cuirrent set-up (yeah I know it's not exactly huge experience!) I'd say that, if you have a good solid state amp, it will accommodate any effects pedal pretty well ;)
Roo
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If you want to keep your amp why not get a valve overdrive/distortion pedal, maybe even splash out on a Radial Tonebone.
Good suggestion, tube pedal into SS amp makes sense.
Otherwise, MI Audio Crunch Box, it's the best, trust me!
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to be honest mate if you're looking to show off the tone of your BKPs the first thing you need to get is a good valve amp. A solid state amp just can't show off the dynamics, harmonics, and clarity of BKPs in the way valves do.
Pedals should be thought of as luxuries to hone your tone and make tweaks to it, whereas an amp is vital, and will provide the basis of your sound.
I agree.
EDIT: cr@p, i see i'm behind as usual...
er, HBE big D, perhaps?
but i still say valve amp, lol.
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If you want to keep your amp why not get a valve overdrive/distortion pedal, maybe even splash out on a Radial Tonebone.
maybe I'm being thick but how would a tonebone help? unless i'm thinking of some other gizmo?
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the tonebone is a plexi voiced OD/DIST pedal if i am not mistaken.....
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there's a few tonebones
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there's a few tonebones
oh ok
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This is proving to be VERY frustrating. Let's give you some background. I bought my amp less than a year ago and I suspect that if I tell the wife that I now need to change it she may very well seperate me from parts of my anatomy that I would rather keep safe!! As I'm not that great a player I didn't want to spend a fortune and the Crate was only £169. For what it is, I still think it's very good value as it does have some good tones. I got something of 65W just in case I decided to gig with it later as I improved. With the benefit of hindsight that seems unlikely as who'd want a 42 year old playing for them, especially if he's still a gigging virgin. I tried a Valveking and really liked it but it was considerably more expensive and, as I've said, I didn't think I'd be able to drive the valve properly in the home. I did briefly consider the Laney 15w but at the time I wasn't sure if that would be a long term solution in case I got the chance to go gigging. It seemed to me that valve amps were only practical if you were good enough to justify the cost and played in large enough places to crank it up a bit. Perhaps I was wrong. I also looked at Roland's Cube amp but decided to steer clear of a modelling amp as everyone was telling me that stomp boxes would work better. Of course, now most of you guys seem to be saying that the stomp boxes won't work well on my solid state amp; is it any wonder I'm getting fed up by the whole thing, especially as it's also being suggested that having saved hard to be able to afford these damn pups I'm now supposed to accept that I can't get the best out of them with my amp! In all honesty I never expected it to be such a problem; someone told me that BB King uses solid state amps and he seems to do OK.
So what is the answer? It seems to me that I have 3 basic choices:
1) Find some way of justifying changing the amp again, in which case, which one should I look at without breaking the bank and being able to play it properly in the home as well as keep in mind the outside chance of gigging in the future (remote I admit)?
2) Get effects pedals that will work well on a solid state amp and give me the sounds I'm looking for. Same question on this one: which ones?
3) Could I warm up the tone of my existing amp by connecting to the amp via a tube preamp and then some pedals? I heard a guy do that with the Roland Cube and it seemed to improve the tone considerably to my rather ignorant ear.
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Your learning the lessons we all do with gear - it takes AGES to find the setup that you like and suits you best. Put it down to experience.
I'd go to a big music shop somewhere and try a load of amps/pedals to see what you might like. Take your own guitar and amp along if you want to and try some stuff. You might find a combination you like.
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I've just thought of a fourth possibility!
I was reading on an older thread where it was pointed out by someone that their Vox AD30VT sounded just like a Dual-Rectifier when that model was selected. I had stayed away from a modelling amp as I reasoned I could get those effects better on stomp boxes. It now occurs to me, would it work better if I used something like a Boss GT-8 or Pod XT Live? Surely these things rely on the amp having a rather neutral sound itself and that is more likely with a solid state amp, even with the valve emulating circuitry that people like Crate boast. These things appear quite expensive but if they offer me all the effects and tones I can use in one package then there is an economy of scale to be had here.
So, which of the 4 options I've mentioned would be best for me and why?
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Whichever works for you ;)
Take your axe, go into a shop and try all setups you can afford. That's the only way. We all have different ears.
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With the benefit of hindsight that seems unlikely as who'd want a 42 year old playing for them, especially if he's still a gigging virgin.
Other 42 year olds? Yeah, you'll probably never play at Wembley Stadium but so what? I'm your age and even I haven't given up hope yet, and believe me I'm the world's biggest pessimist. Probably a much worse player too.
I don't normally comment on amp threads, but I'm in a similar situation to you. If you're stuck with playing at low volume at home, I don't think there's any point getting a decent valve amp - at this stage, anyway. My Rivera combo just sits gathering dust. I agree with your "Option 4" suggestion - get a modeller like a GT-8, a Pod XT, Vox Tonelab, one of the Digitech units, whatever. You can get a huge variety of sounds which may not be "the real thing" but they're still damn good, and you'll learn a lot about different amp and FX sounds, and which work for you. Plus most of the modelling units will interface with your computer for recording etc and you can use them with headphones (if you have to be really quiet like I do).
You can move on the pedalboard and valve amp when you join that band and/or find yourself a big soundproofed rehearsal space!
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^ Send the Rivera this way :P !!
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Doadman wrote:
With the benefit of hindsight that seems unlikely as who'd want a 42 year old playing for them, especially if he's still a gigging virgin.
Other 42 year olds? Yeah, you'll probably never play at Wembley Stadium but so what? I'm your age and even I haven't given up hope yet, and believe me I'm the world's biggest pessimist. Probably a much worse player too.
Many thanks Philly Q, reading that gave me a smile early in the morning and it's nice to know I'm not alone :D As to the last bit, perhaps you should try listening to me play first :lol:
I appreciate that Pierre is right and I do need to try things for myself but this thread has amply shown that there are major gaps in my knowledge and obviously I'd rather avoid making a costly mistake, hence my request for help from those who clearly know better than I do. At the time I bought my amp I think the logic I was using was understandable but unfortunately nobody told me that alot of the pedals I may want would only work well with valve amps. I'm now wanting advice because each of the 4 options I've come up with seem to have potential problems.
1) I buy a valve amp instead of my Crate: A reasonably powerful valve amp that may still be able to be used in the home seems to be 15w but there is a very limited choice there. The Laney and Epi Valve Standard are the only ones that leap out at me but even with those I'm limited with channels and I may still not be able to drive the valves enough at home, in which case my situation is no better than it is now. I simply don't know as I've never owned a valve amp and when I tried the Valve King it was in a bloody great warehouse!
2) Get effects pedals that work well with solid state amps. Fine, but which ones? They all seem to prefer valve amps from what I can gather so I assume my choice would be severely limited.
3) Connect to my Crate through a valve preamp. Would that mean I'd have to connect the effects through the front of the amp so the sequence runs effects - valve preamp - amplifier? Would this setup even work? Would the pedals only work properly if they connect to a full valve amp? Would the result just be slightly warmed up cr@p? I simply don't know if this solution is even worth considering as I don't know enough about the way these things work.
4) Get something like a Boss GT8. This sounds to my ignorant brain and limited experience like an ideal solution but would this actually be better at getting the most out of my new pups? Someone told me the other day that the valve amp models on these things are useless unless you're recording straight into a computer as your own amp colours the sound too much. Is that true? As I have no immediate interest in recording myself that would make half of the unit useless. For what I'd use it for would this limitation make any real difference to my ear as I've never had one of these expensive amps anyway? They advertise these things as 'giggable' so I assume somebody uses them that way and would it only make a difference to experienced guitarists? When I tried my Crate in the shop and also the Valve King at twice the price my wife actually preferred the Crate!!
I'm ranting again so I'd better shut up :roll: Seriously guys, I will try a couple of things out for myself but I really would appreciate the benefit of your experience and knowledge. Thanks.
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I appreciate that Pierre is right and I do need to try things for myself but this thread has amply shown that there are major gaps in my knowledge...
Ha! Nice pun :P
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Sorry 'bout that :oops: , had to be said.
Anyway, I've got a GT-8 and it's improved the tone thru my solid-state amp by miles. I can recommend that option.
But what about a valve amp and a hotplate? I only recently found out what a hotplate does - you can turn your amp up to full and control your actual volume thru the hotplate, meaning that you can reach breaking point thru your valve amp at a much lower volume (That's right, isn't it?)
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Just a point about valve amps. You don't have to be "pushing" them to get a good tone. I have an Epiphone Valve Junior for practising with and the basic, low volume clean tone is really warm, 3D and musical. You just can't get that with a solid state amp. You only need to push it if you're going for true valve overdrive, but that's not important if you're using pedals.
My practice setup is the EVJ and a Marshall Guv'nor pedal. £150 worth of gear and it's VERY Angus-like.
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The hotplate sounds like a good idea but I've just priced one and it seemed bloody expensive at £250! If that's how much they are, it's a non-starter I'm afraid as I'd still have the cost of a new amp and all the pedals on top of that.
As for the question of a valve amp (and you can call me stupid for this if you like :? ), if I'm getting all of the distortion from the pedal anyway wouldn't it be simpler and easier to just keep my existing amp and connect to it through a valve preamp? This seems like a good way of sorting out my problem if it would work. Failing that, something like the GT8 looks to be the best bet. I take it from what you say Muzzzz, that you haven't encountered any of the limitations of something like a GT8 that I've been warned about. It seems to me that it gives me all the effects I could need; loads of cool valve amp sounds; allow me to really get the benefit of my new pups; give me something that is both useable and compact for home use and be practically giggable if that possibility should ever arise.
(Edit) It seems to me that the best possibilities are to either connect to my amp through a valve preamp and use pedals or use a multi f/x system like the Tonelab. I've been wary of these as I was warned that the amp and cab models wouldn't work through a conventioanl amp but I must say, I've just checked out the new Tonelab LE and it looks awesome. Expensive certainly, but if it comes even remotely close to doing what they say it can do then it could be a good investment. Anyway, by the time I'd bought a valve preamp and a few pedals I'd have spent that much anyway. I like the idea of just using my amp as a basic amp and getting all these cool valve amp sounds through it. That sounds like the best of both worlds if it actually works.
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Sounds like you've made your decision :D
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Sounds a good choice! Like I said before, if you're limited to playing at low volume in the house I think it makes sense to have something compact and versatile that'll give you tones "close enough" to a variety of real amps and FX.
I've heard that, of all the modelling units, the Tonelabs come closest to real valve amp tones. I went for the Pod XT because it has USB connectivity and the Guitar Port/Gearbox software (I also have a Digitech GNX4 which I never use, too complicated).
If I had the space I'd run the Pod through an Atomic (http://www.atomicamps.com/) amp, but that'll have to wait.
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In actual fact I hadn't made up my mind when I wrote that last post but I am increasingly getting that way. It does sound like a modeller, such as the Tonelab LE, is the way to go. The whole point of this is to get the most out of these expensive new pups I've bought (being fitted as I type this) and if the Tonelab will do that without going to the expense of changing amps again then it clearly makes sense. In theory it sounds like I can go through the clean channel of my amp (it's the best of the three anyway and is actually already fairly warm for a solid state amp)and get the tone of say a Dual Rectifier and some appropriate effects. OK, it may not be exactly the same as the real amp but I'm a home player and if I do ever get to play a gig, it's hardly likely to be to much of an audience. So far nobody has said this setup won't work so it seems likely I'll go that way. I'd better start saving again :D
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I said it above, but not very clearly...
I use the Zoom G2.1u effects pedal. It cost me about 75 quid, so it's not breaking the bank, but I am most impressed with the quality of output it gives. I'm not the biggest fan of modelling - I don't care what the sound is "meant" to sound like, only what it really *does* sound like! This pedal also will run off a USB cord (without the power adapter, if you choose) and acts as an audio card in Win2k/XP (not tried Vista), which makes it very very easy to record direct, listen through 'phones, etc etc.
I use it in the studio, too - I just prefer the huge range of flexibility it gives me with the 'solid state' amp I have (Randall RG200 G3).
BUT, having said all of that, the most important thing is to try a few options out in a music shop with YOUR gear - see what really works for you!
Hope this helps,
Roo
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The best and cheapest valve rig I can think of, very polyvalent is the Laney VC15 + footswitch (would cost just over 250) and a distortion pedal.
The Laney is one of these few valve amps that sound very good at lower, bedroom level (and trust me I'd know allll about that :lol: ) and for the price, it's honestly a STEAL. With the footswitch you'd have access to clean and drive sound. The drive is gorgeous though not Marshall nor Vox in voice. It's a drive of its own. I like it, but not exactly my sound. It's also a very quiet (no noise) amp which takes pedals very well. Right now I have 2 distortions (a DIY pedal emulating a hot rod Marshall I built, and a MI Audio Crunchbox for heavier Marshall sounds, JCM800 style), a boost/compressor (route 66, modded) and a wah. I'm honestly 100% happy with it. I do have a Plexitone in the mail and a power supply.
But with Laney + Footswitch + say a good drive like the Crunchbox, you'd have A LOT of sounds. I set my Drive channel just for a hint of breakup. So I can ALSO use the CB on top for feedback effects or an OTT sound, or use the boost to push it over that edge.
The compressor makes for real country tones with a pickup split on the clean channel too. While clean + fullon bucker = delightful bluesy tone which you can boost or compress to your own heart's content.
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Failing that, something like the GT8 looks to be the best bet. I take it from what you say Muzzzz, that you haven't encountered any of the limitations of something like a GT8 that I've been warned about.
Yeah, there are definately 'limitations', but in the price range you're looking at, there are inevitably going to be some limitations in whatever you end up choosing, I mean, a solid state amp is NOT like a valve amp, no matter how many SS effects you run through it.
A GT8 will make your tone a lot better, but it might not be what you're after if you've really got a valve sound in your head.
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As another 40+ year old that faces the fact that he will never play Wembly (or be very good) I know the what do I do feeling
Some form of digital modelling is probably the best solution though I would say avoid the Line 6 spider range of amps (other than the extreme settings theyre dreadful)
I have 2 tube amps (which I think are great, but spend most of my time through digital, via headphones or computer)
For travelling the Korg Pandora is pretty good and provides entertainment when I stuck in hotels (for work). It's under 100 quid and the Vox & Marshall emulations are pretty good.
http://www.guitarampkeyboard.com/en/korg-px4d/68075
and more details here http://www.korg.com/gear/info.asp?A_PROD_NO=PX4d
Something that plugs into a computer that allows you to use packages like amplitube, record or practice alongside an audio track can be useful. I was kindly given a M-Audio black box, but there are many others.
The M-Audio Black box comes in at about 80 quid these days and is great value for money http://www.turnkey.co.uk/web/productAction.do?dispatch=showProduct&SKU=MMAN-BLACKBOX&context=WEB
The Tonelabs to my ears seem to be about the best sounding, but as I don't own one I can't really comment.
However with all that said I prefer my Nanohead or Blues Jr amps, but it's not practical with my lifestyle these days.
Rob...
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Agreed on the Korg Pandora, it's a great little headphone amp and practice tool!
I've got all the different versions from the PX1 to the PX4 - looks like the PX4D has replaced the separate bass and guitar versions. The sounds are surprisingly good - I saw a guy using one live once, gaffa taped to the front of his Tele and plugged into the PA!
But you wouldn't want one as your main setup, so I'll stop waffling... :roll:
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Some form of digital modelling is probably the best solution though I would say avoid the Line 6 spider range of amps (other than the extreme settings theyre dreadful)
I would agree that digital modelling sounds like the best solution but if I were to do that I certainly wouldn't be changing the amp. If I were to change the amp I think I'd just go and buy the Laney 15w. If I were to go the modelling route then I would keep my amp and get something that would give me plenty of really good models of both amps and effects.
My heart tells me to just get the Laney 15w valve amp and then get the pedals for it. However, as I am likely to just play my guitar in a small room at home then my head tells me that modelling would be better. I'll probably rarely record myself playing and I'll rarely use headphones but the option of doing that may be useful. Generally I will use something like the Tonelab through my amp. For a solid state amp, the Crate I have is actually good and the clean channel already has a decent tone, albeit not a valve amp. The 'valve emulating circuitry' does a reasonable job but I appreciate there are limits. I'm tempted by the Tonelab because the tone it supplies is supposed to be really good and the new LE version is hopefully better than the older SE at the high gain stuff I like. For what I use it for it would be nice to play around with loads of different tones even if they aren't exactly the same as the real thing. If I play through my amp and select a Rectifier model I'm thinking that the tone should still be excellent, better than I have now, allow my new pups to shine and ultimately it wouldn't matter if it's not as perfect as a real Rectifier. The Tonelab LE may not have the myriad of options that things like the Pod XT Live has but I reason I would rather have a slightly smaller selection of top drawer tones instead of millions. I repeat, I know it won't be the same as a real valve amp but how much difference, for what I do, will there practically be and I'll probably never have to buy another effect again. My heart may say no to this but I can't deny that it seems to be easily the most practical solution based on what I know.