Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => Time Out => Topic started by: Twinfan on April 23, 2007, 04:04:33 PM
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Given the state of the guitar market today, I think we're in a really "golden era". Guitars are more affordable than ever, quality has risen massively at the bottom end of the instrument chain and tonewoods are still (relatively) plentiful.
I have quite a few guitars, some older and some newer, with most of them costing me £450 or less. All of them are built really well with no issues, have good tone and are very playable instruments. Several of them have been improved for a small outlay with the addition of new pots, caps and sometimes pickups. I am getting a lot of satisfaction from the variety of makes/models I've bought for such a (IMO) modest price.
Are the days of the expensive guitar numbered? Why buy a new Gibson VOS Les Paul for £4000 when you can buy an Edwards and a set of Mules for £700? A PRS Custom 24 for £2200 rather than a PRS Custom SE and a set of VHIIs for £600?
Is the real thing still important to people? Or is "bang for your buck" becoming a much better option?
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this is going to sound like a "hedging your bets" type of answer, but anyway...
I guess it depends, basically. if the quality is there, then no-one will want the dearer guitars (apart from the guys with more money than sense that i mentioned in your other thread, and people who are willing to pay for the name (show-offs as I call them), or collectors/investors).
From my experience, i can definitely feel the difference in quality, bar an odd exception, between the more expensive guitars and the cheaper ones. but that's not to say if I found a "good one" among a cheaper brand, that I wouldn't buy it.
Also, I've noticed there's been an upturn in cheaper guitars with better hardware and pickups stock, to give the impression that you're getting a pro guitar, while the woods and construction are the same quality as ever. I think i remember seeing mark (MDV) mentioning this as well, and IMO, this is the wrong way round to do things... i'd rather have cheaper pickups, as I'd probably end up switching them anyway, etc.
EDIT: also, to clarify, i'm willing to pay more for more quality, and/or something which suits my fingers better. not for things like celebrity endorsements.
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Tbh, none of my guitars have been particularly expensive and some expensive ones have never floated my boat (apart from completely hand made ones) - I'll stick with my cheapies thanks!
Andy!
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Yeah, you can get well made, playable guitars with OK woods but cr@ppy hardware, or OK hardware and cr@ppy woods, for pretty good prices these days. They hold up very well to much more expensive instruments after a couple of hardware changes (in the case of the former).
I've done this with a couple of Epis (selected for superior build and acoustic tone edit: no, I didnt select epis for that, it just happened to be that 2 cheap guitars that were good in that respect were epis...oh, and a yamaha, but I sold that) and with a little work they've come out brilliantly. I'm very happy with them, and sound wise, they stand toe to toe or better with off comparable off the shelf guitars of much higher prices.
Golden rule trying to get a good cheap guitar: woods and construction are the most important things! Acoustic tone and build quality!!!!! All else can be changed.
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Out of the 6 guitars I own, 5 were under £500. My Epi Les Paul was only £290, and has now been fitted with new pots, tuners, frets and Mules for less than a good friend of mine paid for a battered second hand (but still very nice playing) Gibson Les Paul Studio.
Personally, I wouldn't consider spending £1700 or more on a guitar unless it was being tailor made for me by a custom builder like Feline, Legra, Manson or my local luthier, SGL. Certainly I'd struggle to hand over four grand for a PRS I knew to have been built on a production line, no matter how well finished it was.
I think, for me personally, 'bang for the buck' is more important, at least up to a point. I've never been a brand-name person anyway. My first guitar was a Yamaha Pacifica 112, and I replaced it with a Pacifica 812, instead of a humbuckered Fender Strat because it was better vaule for money. I'm currently waiting for the bits for my Warmoth Soloist to arrive, and it doesn't get much better in the value for money stakes than that, especially when it's two $ to the £.
I'm not down on people who play expensive guitars by any means. There is, as Dave says, sometimes a discernable gap in quality between expensive instruments and their cheaper equivalents. But when one is £450, plays and sounds pretty good, and the other is £2500 and plays and sounds very good, the question I ask myself is 'Is this really two grand better?'.
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cheap guitars FTW!
but not unknown ebay 100 quid cheapos..... i have always doubted them
but Dean, Vintage, Peavey, Ibanez, yamaha (pacifica 112, to be extremely precise and to take the only one from my own experience), and a load of other brands are taking it wo new levels with budget guitars, especially when you can replace the pickups with BKPs!!!
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I've never spent more than £450 on a guitar - Have an Epi SG Custom, a Warwick Rockbass Corvette 5 string, an ESP Viper Camo, and a Dean Exotica FM.
All I need now is a £400 superstrat with an OFR - Anyone know any?
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Mid-eighties Kramer Baretta ;)
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I've only ever spent more than £400 on a guitar once - an Ibanez JS 100, and regretted it.
NP, what's an OFR? again i show my ignorance.
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Original Floyd Rose.
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cheers
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my cheap guitar GAS list:
- Peavey Rotor EX (£160)
- Dean Baby Dime ML (£160)
- some kind of sharp superstrat.....
- some kind of sharp V...... Dean Razorback V?
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my cheap guitar GAS list:
- Peavey Rotor EX (£160)
- Dean Baby Dime ML (£160)
- some kind of sharp superstrat.....
- some kind of sharp V...... Dean Razorback V?
I wouldn't consider any of the above except for "Sharp Superstrat" :p
I'm thinking an old Charvell or Jackson?
How do Kramer Barettas play?
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2nd hand floyd rose £499..mmm see what you mean
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Floyd-Rose-Redmond-Series-Model-1-Sunburst-Elec-Guitar_W0QQitemZ130102060684QQihZ003QQcategoryZ2384QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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never seen a nut or headstock like that.... looks interesting
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my cheap guitar GAS list:
- Peavey Rotor EX (£160)
- Dean Baby Dime ML (£160)
- some kind of sharp superstrat.....
- some kind of sharp V...... Dean Razorback V?
I wouldn't consider any of the above except for "Sharp Superstrat" :p
I'm thinking an old Charvell or Jackson?
How do Kramer Barettas play?
Mine ends on ebay very soon ;) http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=018&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&viewitem=&item=280106249650&rd=1&rd=1
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never seen a nut or headstock like that.... looks interesting
All floyd rose guitars have that headstock.
Atleast I think all.
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my cheap guitar GAS list:
- Peavey Rotor EX (£160)
- Dean Baby Dime ML (£160)
- some kind of sharp superstrat.....
- some kind of sharp V...... Dean Razorback V?
I wouldn't consider any of the above except for "Sharp Superstrat" :p
I'm thinking an old Charvell or Jackson?
How do Kramer Barettas play?
Mine ends on ebay very soon ;) http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=018&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&viewitem=&item=280106249650&rd=1&rd=1
I'll be honest - I have been considering it, but I'm not a singlecoil kinda guy, and I won't have the money till atleast Friday.
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I'm not down on people who play expensive guitars by any means. There is, as Dave says, sometimes a discernable gap in quality between expensive instruments and their cheaper equivalents. But when one is £450, plays and sounds pretty good, and the other is £2500 and plays and sounds very good, the question I ask myself is 'Is this really two grand better?'.
i agree.
however, i sometimes find that a £400 guitar would be nice "if I changed the pickups, oh and the tuners, pots wouldn't hurt to be changed either", etc... and if you aren't careful what started out as a "cheap guitar" is up to £700, maybe £800... and something like a legra or similar isn't too far off.
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Very interesting topic!
As more companies use off-shore building, I can definitely see the trend already happening. How many LTDs do you think ESP sells versus an ESP custom these days?
That being said, I own one 'cheap' guitar, my Agile AL-2800. The tone is great, in my opinion, but it most definitely doe NOT play as well as my kit guitars with Warmoth necks.
Every overseas LTD and Epiphone I've played so far has made me gag.
So, I don't know. I think that for beginners, cheap will rule the ruins. For the rest of us, we are striving for machines what don't get in the way of our artistic endeavours. In essence, we're looking for the "non guitar" guitar: the perfect conduit from imagination to raging half stack or whatever.
If you're able to do that with a cheap guitar, I say more power to you! I've yet to feel that way myself, though.
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For the rest of us, we are striving for machines what don't get in the way of our artistic endeavours. In essence, we're looking for the "non guitar" guitar: the perfect conduit from imagination to raging half stack or whatever.
If you're able to do that with a cheap guitar, I say more power to you! I've yet to feel that way myself, though.
Then you can count me out of 'the rest of us' ;)
I often like to feel some character in the instrument I play. I like it to have a feel and a vibe, and even make me work against it to help me play a certain way. Theres a reason my 'blues guitar', a crawlered Epi LP, has 11-56 in E with high action, and its not just the tone!
I can appreciate an 'invisible guitar' (I have a couple...I keep tripping on them though), but theres a lot to be said for the character of an instrument, and that includes imperfections, I think. In that sense I for one rely more on my ability to play than on the degree of refinment of a guitar. Though, again, I love a refined guitar as much as the next guy (owning 2 customs isnt a big deal round here, but it says something, I suppose, especially alongside 2 epis, one top end MIJ jackson and a £100 pos that I still love to play)
my 2p
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my cheap guitar GAS list:
- Peavey Rotor EX (£160)
- Dean Baby Dime ML (£160)
- some kind of sharp superstrat.....
- some kind of sharp V...... Dean Razorback V?
I wouldn't consider any of the above except for "Sharp Superstrat" :p
I'm thinking an old Charvell or Jackson?
How do Kramer Barettas play?
Mine ends on ebay very soon ;) http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=018&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&viewitem=&item=280106249650&rd=1&rd=1
I'll be honest - I have been considering it, but I'm not a singlecoil kinda guy, and I won't have the money till atleast Friday.
i would love it, but i have just almost bought Twinfan's cab, so i have no money! i wanted it though when i first saw it......... money, innit? :lol:
the reason that list was full of deans is because i trust them to give me quality guitars, if you pay a reasonable price (150 or over)
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my cheap guitar GAS list:
- Peavey Rotor EX (£160)
- Dean Baby Dime ML (£160)
- some kind of sharp superstrat.....
- some kind of sharp V...... Dean Razorback V?
I wouldn't consider any of the above except for "Sharp Superstrat" :p
I'm thinking an old Charvell or Jackson?
How do Kramer Barettas play?
Mine ends on ebay very soon ;) http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=018&sspagename=STRK%3AMESE%3AIT&viewitem=&item=280106249650&rd=1&rd=1
I'll be honest - I have been considering it, but I'm not a singlecoil kinda guy, and I won't have the money till atleast Friday.
It didnt sell tonight so I'll try re-listing it one last time.. if it doenst sell this time I guess I'll keep it and get a singlecoil size 'bucker for the neck (I dont think I really like HSS - SSS is great but switching from a humbucker to single sounds weird to me)
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i'd buy that floyd rose redmond in a heartbeat if i could afford it at the minute! i realise they're not to everyone's taste, but i like 'em.
as to cheap guitars, yeah i've played, and have, some very good ones. i've also played some expensive guitars that were real dogs! a particular fender custom shop strat at close to three grand (that's pounds, so six thousand dollars!) was one of the worst guitars i've ever played. a yamaha pacifica in the same shop played and sounded much better. and it was definately more than just a setup issue.
but, my more expensive guitars do somehow feel different. i don't think it's my imagination. i reckon there'll always be a place for the premium product.
personally i've always thought the likes of epiphone should make simple junior type guitars with decent woods rather than covering everything in flashy veneers, then you'd have good, affordable student type instruments with the glitz and glamour left to the big names.
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cheap guitars FTW!
but not unknown ebay 100 quid cheapos..... i have always doubted them
but Dean, Vintage, Peavey, Ibanez, yamaha (pacifica 112, to be extremely precise and to take the only one from my own experience), and a load of other brands are taking it wo new levels with budget guitars, especially when you can replace the pickups with BKPs!!!
wow someone likes vintages other than myself.
theyre made about 11 milews from my house.
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I've owned an awful lot of guitars, some cheapies, a few pricey ones, but most in the £400-£700 range. At that price I get decent quality timbers, good hardware and I can have a lot of fun changing parts and pickups, shielding the cavities, fine-tuning the nut and the frets, sometimes getting out the router for some major surgery or doing a respray.
I've never had anything as expensive as a PRS (apart from an old EG), but I've had 4 or 5 guitars which cost over £1,000. They all ended up being sold. They weren't as much fun because (a) they didn't need much work done and (b) even if they did I was wary of damaging them. Mid-price is good enough for me.
But then I'm not a "guitar player". I'm a nerdy bloke with no dependents, no significant vices and a bit of spare cash who likes tinkering with guitars. If I'd had the talent - and the work ethic - to become a really good player I might feel that £2,000 PRS or Custom Shop Gibson was a justifiable investment. I might not know how to set it up though...
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think I paid most for my accoustic £700 or my Sg(although was bought that), am a mid range buyer like philly q, then have my low end ibanez sas36fm which I love through neck(changed pickups) and my cheap gretch which I love
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I think you have to shop around. There are many many brilliant companies making quality guitars at a cost that is more affordable than the big American companies. There is often some kind of trade off in quality but companies like Yamaha churn out mass produced pacificas that outplay Fender Strats are better finished and normally of better quality materials. A few years ago you could even get Yamaha guitars with Warmoth necks for less than £300.
Recently i went out looking for a Les Paul "substitute" and with the help of many of the people here in the forum got turned on to 70's and 80's Grecos, Burnys and the like. I bought an awesome Greco Les Paul copy for less than £290 which after straplocks, case and pickups will still be less than a good secondhand Les Paul Studio. Having owned a proper gibson Les Paul Custom I can say this Japanese copy blows the newer American guitar away in almost every way, with the exception of the pickups that I'd replace anyway, there's no way I'm parting with this for a Gibson, and I'm actually looking for another Greco guitar as soon as I can afford to.
However, I also bought a cheap Westfield Telecaster copy online based on one a friend bought a few months earlier. Where his guitar plays great, seems solidly built and well finished, mine had screws falling out of it, those that didn't fall out were all screwed in at crazy angles and the guitar wouldn't stay in tune if it's life depended on it. After a lot of tinketing and repair it's now at least solid and playable (it actually has one of the nicest necks I've had).
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personally i've always thought the likes of epiphone should make simple junior type guitars with decent woods rather than covering everything in flashy veneers, then you'd have good, affordable student type instruments with the glitz and glamour left to the big names.
that is a good point, and would be nice to see. unfortunately, all the (maybe most, to avoid tarring everyone with the same brush) kids want something that looks like a bona fide les paul standard or custom, even if it doesn't play or sound like one.
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personally i've always thought the likes of epiphone should make simple junior type guitars with decent woods rather than covering everything in flashy veneers, then you'd have good, affordable student type instruments with the glitz and glamour left to the big names.
that is a good point, and would be nice to see. unfortunately, all the (maybe most, to avoid tarring everyone with the same brush) kids want something that looks like a bona fide les paul standard or custom, even if it doesn't play or sound like one.
yeah, i remember when the prs se's first appeared, the company clearly stated that we wouldn't ever see a korean prs with a maple top. and yet, just a few years later, here they are! and while they do look nice, and commercially had to happen to compete with epiphone and co., it is a shame that the "student guitar" vibe the original se's had has been lost.
that being said, i think they're bringing out a single pickup mahogany se, aren't they? hopefully it'll be popular, although i think, as with the american satin series, they'll probably be overpriced.
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That being said, I own one 'cheap' guitar, my Agile AL-2800..
i have the al2500 and im currently thinking about what pickups to stick it in so far im thinking nailbomb & stormy monday. what do you have in yours??
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Back to the original topic, I think that cheap guitars are definately of a general higher standard than they used to, but the problem is that there has been a HUGE shift in the demographic targeted by retailers and producers, away from the experienced and discerning musician and towards the gay emo kid who wouldn't know quality if it slapped him in the face.
So needless to say, there are a lot more 'entry-level' guitars, and the pricier, higher quality guitars are a lot harder to come by.
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It all comes down to value for money, doesn't it?
You can get some affordable guitars that are pretty good. I have tried (and owned) some upmarket stuff. USA Gibson, Fenders and PRS's are charging too much. They should be much better with those kinds of price tags.
The only pricey guitar that has impressed me so far is my Gretsch Power Jet.
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It all comes down to value for money, doesn't it?
USA Gibson, Fenders and PRS's are charging too much. They should be much better with those kinds of price tags.
definately, and the thing is, in the UK, the prices work out at about double what people are charged in the states. same with stuff like Mesa/Boogie. a middle income kinda guy in, say, denver, can afford to have a shiney prs and mesa rig, while the same guy in, say, Bradford has to make do with a valvestate marshall and an LTD.
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For the rest of us, we are striving for machines what don't get in the way of our artistic endeavours. In essence, we're looking for the "non guitar" guitar: the perfect conduit from imagination to raging half stack or whatever.
If you're able to do that with a cheap guitar, I say more power to you! I've yet to feel that way myself, though.
Then you can count me out of 'the rest of us' ;)
I often like to feel some character in the instrument I play. I like it to have a feel and a vibe, and even make me work against it to help me play a certain way. Theres a reason my 'blues guitar', a crawlered Epi LP, has 11-56 in E with high action, and its not just the tone!
my 2p
Agree 100%.
I want my guitars to have character. I have no interest at all in a guitar thats "invisible", to me, that sounds like my idea of the cheapest of the cheap instrument. Something that has no spark of life about it.
If you pick up a les paul you play it like a les paul, and if you pick up a tele you play it like a tele and I feel there's a certain charm in this, plus, it makes having several different guitars much more justifiable :lol:
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It all comes down to value for money, doesn't it?
USA Gibson, Fenders and PRS's are charging too much. They should be much better with those kinds of price tags.
definately, and the thing is, in the UK, the prices work out at about double what people are charged in the states. same with stuff like Mesa/Boogie. a middle income kinda guy in, say, denver, can afford to have a shiney prs and mesa rig, while the same guy in, say, Bradford has to make do with a valvestate marshall and an LTD.
ah but if we wanted, say, a Feline, Gordon smith or Organic guitar with BKPs and a Marshall or a Matamp etc. it'd be a whole lot cheaper to us than it would over there too. It's all about where the stuff's made.
And also - i think that USA fender prices are quite reasonable at the moment.
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i totally get the point about different guitars' characters affecting the way you play them. however, many years ago i played an Ibanez Jem and was astounded! the guitar was, as you say, invisible. the point is that there is absolutely no barrier to your technique, and you're unlikely to get that from a cheap guitar.
the "characterful" guitars and the "invisible" guitars will obviously appeal to different kinds of players, and rarely doth the twain meet!
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Good stuff guys - it's interesting to hear people have thoughts similar to my own. Thought I was alone!
As en expansion on the original thread, and the sales of guitars in the lower end of the market being so high, is the following true (I'll use PRS as a rough example):
* PRS build a top spec instrument at high price - Custom 24 or Modern Eagle
* Well heeled players and professionals pay the top dollar
* Ordinary working people like the top spec but decide it's too much money
* Ordinary person buys one of the SE range and loves it
* (Possibly) Ordinary person gets famous/rich somehow and either buys top spec guitar or gets it free as an endorsement
So basically, the top spec guitar only exists to improve sales of the lower range? For a big company this has to be the case? Company expands on basis of cheaper guitar sales i.e. top spec sales are fairly constant once you get to a certain point?
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i think PRS have really sold out with the SE range. PRS as a company sucks; they keep destroying their image further for the sake of making money. Back in the 80s and early 90s PRS were seen as respectable. Since they've redesigned the guitars, giving them a huge unneeded heel, started endorsing cr@ppy nu-metal and emo players, cranked up the prices and released the SE series they have destroyed themselves. A lot of players nowadays refuse to play PRS despite loving the sound and feel just because they don't want to look like a prat. It also annoys me that people call them "top spec" and praise them as hard as they do like they're the best gutiar brand on the market today. They are quite easily not. People assume PRS guitars are handmade as they used to be a long time ago, but they aren't; they're almost completely machine made just like other mass production companies like fender and gibson. However; i do think they are the best production line guitar you can buy today; which is quite a feat, yet they are still overrated.
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Not for me.
I got my guitars for cheap, second hand, but they were expensive at the time. My Stagemaster would have been around 1,000 of today's pounds, the Charvel 4 around the same, the model 1 maybe around 750.
Often, cheaper guitars have dead timber. So it's all a matter of trying and trying... it's not easy.
I don't own any new guitars. And new stuff...only 2 pedals. I never bought any pickups new apart from a BKP back in the days. Ah and my 1spot and cables :lol:
Note that sometimes even expensive guitars have dead woods too.
Whenever I see a Squier or especially Epiphones (new Epiphones I tried lately = yuck, no offence, but very shody) it needs at LEAST a new nut and fretwork. I do nut and electronics but that's at least an added 50 pounds to the price. Most guitars need that fair enough, but on a lot of higher priced stuff, the nut and electronics are fine.
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Just to clarify "indysmith" - I meant top spec in reference to PRS' model range. I wouldn't class myself as a PRS fan ;)
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That being said, I own one 'cheap' guitar, my Agile AL-2800..
i have the al2500 and im currently thinking about what pickups to stick it in so far im thinking nailbomb & stormy monday. what do you have in yours??
Riff Raff bridge, Stormy Monday neck.
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It all comes down to value for money, doesn't it?
USA Gibson, Fenders and PRS's are charging too much. They should be much better with those kinds of price tags.
definately, and the thing is, in the UK, the prices work out at about double what people are charged in the states. same with stuff like Mesa/Boogie. a middle income kinda guy in, say, denver, can afford to have a shiney prs and mesa rig, while the same guy in, say, Bradford has to make do with a valvestate marshall and an LTD.
ah but if we wanted, say, a Feline, Gordon smith or Organic guitar with BKPs and a Marshall or a Matamp etc. it'd be a whole lot cheaper to us than it would over there too. It's all about where the stuff's made.
And also - i think that USA fender prices are quite reasonable at the moment.
all true, except when you live in Ireland! try finding a Matamp or Gordon Smith over here and you're usually in for a pretty futile search. and the big names like Gibson and PRS cost even more over here than in England. agree though that Fender street prices aren't so bad, if only there wasn't such a bewildering array of different models of the same guitar! but that's a whole different subject
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I like twinfans view of the high end of PRS (I think the existance of the SE range shows where the money really is)
Since the 90s, (perhaps even the mid 80s) you have not had to look so hard to find something that you could call good.
A friend that played on the White Stripes album Elephant used his 2nd hand SG copy made by Vintage, not a guitar to letch after but it did the job.
Even Fender caught on that there where price / quality disparity issues (which is more than gibson have ever managed). Fender, Ibanez, ESP, Gretch and PRS all do less expensive ranges, that are damn close to their 'premium models.
So why not stick to cheap ones, well pick up an 'cheap' model and play it, then pick up a mid range model. The vast majority of the time you will want the mid range.
Then pick up the high end one, and the reaction is usally, yeah it's better, but not enough to justify the cost. (Or in the case of certain companys you decide the cheap version is superior to the expensive one)
This leads to the question why buy an expensive model ?
Well sometimes it's becasue a suitable budget model dosnt exist (as in the case of my Rickenbacker 12 string).
Sometimes almost as good as, isn't enough, once you taste the real thing it's hard to go back.
Other times it's simply becasue you want to own something you have strived or waited for.
However it is sad that people buy badly built expensive guitars becasue they have a particular name on the headstock :(
Rob...
/rant on
BTW think about this :
I'm in the silly situation of wanting a quality Gibson DC Jr type guitar. I want a straight foreward but quality guitar, but the prices are stupid. It's dumb that I can buy a US built strat with 'name' pickups or a Les Paul for less. And thats without looking at tokai or other far east makes
Not to just go Gibson bashing the Nik Huber Jr models are perhaps an even greater case in point http://www.nikhuber-guitars.de/2006_junior_intro.htm. Even Hamer charge a fortune for such a basic guitar (about 1400 quid)
/rant off
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I am in the unusual situation of having some very valuable guitars while never having paid more than $2,500 for any of them (the $2,500 was for a 1953 Les Paul converted to 59 spec and it is the guitar on the cover of Atlantic Blues Guitar).
I also have quite a few cheaper guitars, and the biggest problem with the cheaper ones is the hardware. As a case in point, I have recently bought a Raven West PRS Hollowbody copy, and have had to change all the electronics, the bridge, the tuners, and I will put a replacement nut on it too. I am lucky in that I have all the tools to do this, and I can fix it myself, but if I had sent it to a luthier to do it would have been at least $250.
I think the best value is the second hand market. There are still some bargains around, though some of the prices seem to be going through the roof. In the States, Warmoth gives a good cheap way to get a classy instrument. Gordon Smith's are great value, and then there are the custom makers. If I was in the UK, I would definately have a guitar custom made (I have several that were made there when I was living there. Actually, I just realised that my semi-hollow neck through custom 5 string bass is my most expensive guitar due to the exchange rate, the picture below is when it was being sprayed).
Newer expensive factory guitars don't seem to have the soul of the older ones, and if they are all made by machine, then the woods, finishing and final tweaking are all that can make a difference.
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yeah, i remember when the prs se's first appeared, the company clearly stated that we wouldn't ever see a korean prs with a maple top. and yet, just a few years later, here they are! and while they do look nice, and commercially had to happen to compete with epiphone and co., it is a shame that the "student guitar" vibe the original se's had has been lost.
that being said, i think they're bringing out a single pickup mahogany se, aren't they? hopefully it'll be popular, although i think, as with the american satin series, they'll probably be overpriced.
yeah, i think so.
ah but if we wanted, say, a Feline, Gordon smith or Organic guitar with BKPs and a Marshall or a Matamp etc. it'd be a whole lot cheaper to us than it would over there too. It's all about where the stuff's made.
And also - i think that USA fender prices are quite reasonable at the moment.
true, but i still am pretty sure that we pay much more over the odds for mesa and PRS than americans pay for marshall etc. to be fair, the flip side is that we have an NHS etc.
i totally get the point about different guitars' characters affecting the way you play them. however, many years ago i played an Ibanez Jem and was astounded! the guitar was, as you say, invisible. the point is that there is absolutely no barrier to your technique, and you're unlikely to get that from a cheap guitar.
the "characterful" guitars and the "invisible" guitars will obviously appeal to different kinds of players, and rarely doth the twain meet!
I agree, it depends a lot on what you're playing. i like characterful guitars, and ones that are no barrier to any technique.
also, +1 on rob's post.
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Playability is, for me, a non issue. Any decent tech and 70 pounds later your guitar should be able to play perfectly great. Then it depends on the strings, cutaway, neck shape etc... for different experiences. But a Squier setup by Tom Anderson would probably play like a Tom Anderson.
It's all about the timber for me. Hardware can be replaced, playability adjusted.
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away from the experienced and discerning musician and towards the gay emo kid who wouldn't know quality if it slapped him in the face..
So just because you play a certain genre of music means that you aren't a "discerning musician" or able to tell a quality instrument from a piece of junk? Really? Really?
I suggest you start to think about some of these comments before you put finger to keyboard.
...back on topic:
I must say I'm all in favour of the proliferation of good quality cheaper guitars that we are now accustomed to, it's democratised music making a great deal, and that can only be a good thing. A wider base to the skills pyramid (ie more people taking part) means that there is the greater potential for a higer number of really stellar bands and musicians to emerge.
And as Twinfan pointed out, there is now a clear upgrade path for budding guitarists who want better instruments as they progress. My 'lecy guitar is an Epi Les Paul, which I bought after having played guitar for not very long. I played loads of different instruments in my price bracket, then settled on the one which played the best. 7 years on and after a set up, BKP's and replaced electronics, it still plays really well.
I was fortunate in that having played music from an early age (violin and tuba) I had a decent idea of what constituted a good instrument, but nonetheless, inexperienced guitarists (for whom the guitar may well be their first instrument) can now pick up a decent instrument for not a huge outlay. Which can only mean that more are encouraged to do so. The as they progress, hardware upgrades etc can help prolonge the life of their instrument, and eventually new guitars of a more middling price range.
I'd never claim that my humble Epi plays as well as a Feline, and there will always be the market for quality handbuilt instruments (and God nows that come qualification I'll be handing over a substantial portion of my paycheque to Mr J Law), but there is room in the market place for Epi's and Felines. It's all horses for courses :)
Btw Twinfan, nice thread. Thought provoking :)
*Rahnooo*
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Playability is, for me, a non issue.
?!
Any decent tech and 70 pounds later your guitar should be able to play perfectly great. Then it depends on the strings, cutaway, neck shape etc... for different experiences. But a Squier setup by Tom Anderson would probably play like a Tom Anderson.
It's all about the timber for me. Hardware can be replaced, playability adjusted.
I totally disagree with this thinking!!
I also suspect someone is deliberately hitting hot buttons here ... 8)
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I think you're in a different ball park to some of us TO. I agree that playability can be alterered - nuts lowered/raised, action height adjusted etc. I'd also prefer a guitar with a particular character rather than the "blank canvas" that you favour.
Horses for courses.
To continue with the theme of my thread I am now, more than ever, of the belief that the high end guitars in a manufacturer's range exists only to sell lower end versions of the same thing. For example, if PRS only produced the SE range would the buying public be as interested as it is and sales be as good? Probably not. The consumer sees the bling £2400 Custom 24 and says "Wow I love it but can't afford it" then tries out an SE and says "Very nice, and £2000 cheaper! The expensive one isn't/can't be £2000 better I'll take this SE".
The sale is then complete and PRS make money...
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Horses for courses.
Amen.
To continue with the theme of my thread I am now, more than ever, of the belief that the high end guitars in a manufacturer's range exists only to sell lower end versions of the same thing.
I semi agree with this; it is nice to see what each company produces as their top of the line, bespoke models. Eventually that will trickle down into their lower lines. I don't think they exist SOLELY to sell the cheaper guitars, but it certainly incites the lust factor and brand loyalty.
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I want my guitars to have character. I have no interest at all in a guitar thats "invisible", to me, that sounds like my idea of the cheapest of the cheap instrument. Something that has no spark of life about it.
the term invisible, has to be defined here.
i seriously doubt ben thought of some lifeless guitar, that is just there for the sole purpose of making sound..
no, IMO, he had a guitar in mind, that speaks YOU. your own. the extension of your ability/fingers/imagination. a guitar that doesnt fight you, because the neck could be a touch beefier, or cos the profile of the neck is too shallow, wood dead.. etc etc.
it has to be alive with character, but not a bluesy character or shredder per se, but YOUR character.. so it will make you feel awesome playing it, that it feels right and that you want to play it.
in other words, the right guitar for yourself.
as for me.. i never paid more than 400€ for any piece of gear i own. sure, the guitars, cos they have BKPs in them are worth more than that, but i never paid more than 400€ when i was buying anything.
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Playability is, for me, a non issue.
?!
Any decent tech and 70 pounds later your guitar should be able to play perfectly great. Then it depends on the strings, cutaway, neck shape etc... for different experiences. But a Squier setup by Tom Anderson would probably play like a Tom Anderson.
It's all about the timber for me. Hardware can be replaced, playability adjusted.
I totally disagree with this thinking!!
I also suspect someone is deliberately hitting hot buttons here ... 8)
It's fairly logical though. Think of it this way... a decent car frame, with a shite engine. Add a great engine... you'll still have a decent car, but with a lot more power.
Buy a standard Squier. Bring it to your luthier of choice for new nut, fretwork (with whichever frets you want, let's assume the standard ones are fine) and full setup...and then why would this guitar not play as well as others?
A lot of it does come to personal preferences. String height, fingerboard radius etc... but all things being constant, there is NO reasons a 12'' Squier/X/Y with med fret etc... should not play as well as a Tom Anderson with the same neck specs.
However you'll most likely get way better hardware and, most important for me, timber with the Anderson.
A bad sounding guitar may sound OK with great pickups, but a great guitar will sound great with great pickups.
I.e put BKPs in a bad Squier, it'll sound better than stock, but the guitar won't compliment the pickups much.
Or a Squier pup in a Tom Anderson and the pup won't compliment the guitar much.
Accoustic voicing does it for me. Which is also why I find it a shame that most guitars come with 009s. It's not thick enough to really bring them to life in my experience. Also, hardware does sometimes hinder at string vibration and therefore body resonance. So it IS hard to tell, I won't deny that.
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For example, if PRS only produced the SE range would the buying public be as interested as it is and sales be as good? Probably not. The consumer sees the bling £2400 Custom 24 and says "Wow I love it but can't afford it" then tries out an SE and says "Very nice, and £2000 cheaper! The expensive one isn't/can't be £2000 better I'll take this SE".
The sale is then complete and PRS make money...
Without wishing to make myself look shallow Twinfan, the scenario you describe here is exactly what happened with me when I bought my SE Sinlgecut. I loved the look of the US Singlecuts, but couldn't afford one. Then PRS brought out the SE, and I now have a whale blue one on my wall.
Personally I'm all in favour of guitars like the SE line, as they put decent quality instruments within the reach of people like me - serious guitarists who are also seriously poor and crippled by university (and/or other) debts. I'm fine with it, and I don't think it has as much effect on the brand as some people claim.
I'm not sure the high-end lines exist purely to induce purchases at the lower end of the market, but I am convinced this certainly happens all the time, even if it wasn't the original intention.
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You don't sound shallow Simon - it's exactly what I did with my Epi SG. However, I've now bought the equivalent Gibson.
I wasn't exactly clear when I said that the high-end lines exist purely to induce purchases at the lower end of the market. I think, as you say, that's what is happening in the real world but it wasn't designed that way by the manufacturers.
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I wasn't exactly clear when I said that the high-end lines exist purely to induce purchases at the lower end of the market. I think, as you say, that's what is happening in the real world but it wasn't designed that way by the manufacturers.
Investors insist on maximum return
You may start a company with the sole task of producing the best guitars (of their type) on earth. However once you have venture capitalists, bankers and their ilk, the companys sole role becomes that of maximum financial return. This was discussed regarding endorsements a couple of months ago.
If you don't do as you are told you are got rid of and you don't even own your own name ! The only builder of any real size that has kept it's independance and not producing budget models are Rickenbacker. Have a look at the calls on the Ric site to see the number of requests every week for a cheaper model, and the response.
A cr@p guitar with a good setup is just a cr@p guitar with a good setup, add decent hardware and it's still a cr@p guitar. Pick up a high end guitar and you will see the difference.
However for learning to play, having a guitar to leave in the office or girlfriends house or a backup guitar there are very good inexpensive options.
But you will prefer picking up the really good one if you have the option
Rob...
A high end guitar (one which has been built as it should have) is a joy to play. It's not just wood or hardware
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Playability is, for me, a non issue. Any decent tech and 70 pounds later your guitar should be able to play perfectly great. Then it depends on the strings, cutaway, neck shape etc... for different experiences. But a Squier setup by Tom Anderson would probably play like a Tom Anderson.
Depends how you define "playability" - the best setup in the world isn't going to compensate for an uncomfortable neck shape or an unbalanced/heavy body. Those are the things that matter most to me. If the neck doesn't feel right I'm never going to get on with the guitar.
I've never played an Anderson, but if they feel no better than a well-set-up Squier I'll be very disappointed. :?
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if you think about it - producing guitars that people will buy and which will make profit is a lot harder than producing the very best guitars in the world. unforunately i think a lot of companies set out with the former in mind rather than the latter.
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if you think about it - producing guitars that people will buy and which will make profit is a lot harder than producing the very best guitars in the world.
I think that marketing this type of product is very difficult, as the waters are already muddied by established makers.
Producing the actual guitars is easy: find a factory already making the guitars and just have em slap your logo on the headstock.
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Playability is, for me, a non issue. Any decent tech and 70 pounds later your guitar should be able to play perfectly great. Then it depends on the strings, cutaway, neck shape etc... for different experiences. But a Squier setup by Tom Anderson would probably play like a Tom Anderson.
Depends how you define "playability" - the best setup in the world isn't going to compensate for an uncomfortable neck shape or an unbalanced/heavy body. Those are the things that matter most to me. If the neck doesn't feel right I'm never going to get on with the guitar.
I've never played an Anderson, but if they feel no better than a well-set-up Squier I'll be very disappointed. :?
Exactly. It's hard to tell. But if Anderson made a Squier profile on a Strat, all things being equals, why wouldn't the Fender play as well as the Anderson?
Think of it this way...you have a nice Strat, you want to make it play great. Even if you got it really cheap, why couldn't a great tech make it play amazing?
The differences is also that with the Anderson/whatever brand, you get the right setup WHEN YOU BUY. As opposed to have it done. And of course, hardware, timber choice, methods of building, pickups, attention to details etc...
With a Squier you'd need some work done on it when you buy it.