Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => The Dressing Room => Topic started by: LazyNinja on July 07, 2007, 12:32:24 PM
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Sorry, I posted a similar thread a while ago but some things have changed since then and it's nearly deadline.
I'm a student from Leeds and I am holding an offer to study NatSci at Cambridge University and I was going to specialize in physics.
The problem is, that although I've been thru an English High School (an inner city state cr@p one at that) and 6th Form, I'm still classed as an overseas student (I was born in Japan) and hence I have to pay huge tuition fee. Their tuition fee plus the college fee and living cost puts the estimated cost at £22500 per year, i.e. £90K over 4 years.
My family isn't exactly rich, or even average, and this is impossible to pay. However, my kind grandparents in Japan are willing to sell their house to fund my course. I am not sure whether this is a good choice, because in two years time (2009 entry) I'd be classed as a home student and will only have to pay normal fees. However, I'd lose my offer if I wait and I'm not confident that I will get accepted again. I am pretty sure I can still get into a good uni again though, because I have 6 and a half grade A A levels. Another bad thing is that I will have been away from education for 3 years because I have already deferred entry once thsi year. I think it'll be quite difficult to get myself back up to speed again.
I get the feeling that this is a once in a lifetime chance to study at one of the best uni in the world, but I am just not sure whether it's worth all the money. I mean with £90k you could do a lot of other things. I'd also feel incredibly guilty and pressured from the fact that my grandparents had to sell their house and spend their savings on me. Also, as a subject Physics isn't exactly highly profitable after graduation so that's also a big factor. I'm just thinking how much is the Cambridge "name factor" worth after I graduate?
I need to present them with a proof that I have £90k by 15th August, so gotta make the decision very soon. I REALLY dont know what to do... Just thought I'd ask you what you thought of it. Should I take the money or stay put? :( What would you do in my position?
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I'm just thinking how much is the Cambridge "name factor" worth after I graduate?
a hell of a lot!!!!
but thats one hell of a hard decision
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It's a tough call, here are my initial thoughts:
You'd owe a lot to your grandparents, could you ever repay that kindness? Maybe your graduation would be reward enough or them but think hard.
As for being out of the education loop, there are plenty of mature students at university, they are generally more motivated as they have already experienced the real world and don't see Uni as 3 years of living it up before you have to get a job.
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Physics is statistically the most profitable degree as it sets you up for anything - banking, law, any science or technology based job. High level employers are not interested in specific skills learned during degrees but a level of literacy and mathematical ability. Physics provides those criteria. I interview trainees in my work and physics is one of those degrees that open doors.
As to Cambridge, i'm biased because I went there - it is one of the best universities in the world, its reputation is known worldwide and most employers look at the words MA (Cantab) as a magic ticket.
So, yes its worth hardship, but preferably your own. I can see your dilemma, your grandparents would be making a massive sacrifice - is there no way of negotiating a deferral of your place?
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Well if you see it economically this is hardly to pay off, as you have to compare all alternatives, and there might be free ones or very low cost. The 90K GBP will have to be earned back with interest on top of what you had earned with a normal master from a different school.
If you are very successful in your career, this will easily pay off (as top managers can quickly make 1m + a year) but most likely it will hardly pay off as you can get a good salary with a normal master if you perform in your job.
But then there is the immaterial value of a degree in Cambridge which is hard to quantify ...
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that's a tough one. i wouldn't know what to advise there.
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I didn't go to Cambridge but in my working life I've met a number of people who did - and from my observations a degree from Cambridge (or Oxford) still opens a hell of a lot of doors in this country (as does an Eton tie, for that matter, but that's irrelevant).
I wouldn't want to have to make the decision you need to make with your grandparents. £90K is a hell of a lot of money. But you obviously have something about you to even get a place, and if you carry that into the workplace - plus your Cambridge degree - your earning potential (I stress potential! :wink: ), even within a few years of graduating, is massive. It all depends what line of work you decide to go into, of course, but that place at Cambridge could be almost priceless.
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What a dilemma :
I had a couple of friends who did medicine at Oxford and that opened a lot of doors for them (practically doubled their inital salaries), and also gave them opportunitys (both research and later employment) that students at other UK universitys would have given their eye teeth for.
From friends who did physics (and had a true delight in the subject) Cambridge is the place to be.
However above all else it is you who will have to cope with the additional stress to perform that this (truely generous) will create for you.
If you think it will disrupt your studies then it would possibly be best to consider a different uni and perhaps look at a postgrad or doctorate at Cambridge
Whatever way you choose I hope it is the best one for you.
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For what it is worth, I would say grab the opportunity.Your Grandparents are indeed making a sacrifice but they show their level of belief in you and as others have said, it will open doors for you in the future and in lifetime terms, £60k will seem a snmall price.You would have to work your arse off to justify their faith.Do it I say.
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I have to say, I agree with everything that's been said - although I think if you do decided to take the opportunity, you would probably get more out than a lot of people as you'll be less inclined to mess about and waste the time, knowing what your grandparents had to sacrifice for you to be there...
The other important thing to think about is whether you actually want to go to Cambridge or whether you'd be going there purely because of the reputation...I passed on Oxford and am heading off to Warwick in september/october because I just didn't feel comfortable in the place, and realised I had only applied because of the name
Good luck in your decision :wink:
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why not talk directly to the Uni - explain the situation and see what they suggest.
as others have already said, the Cambridge name opens alot of doors - it may well be worth the risks but make sure you study hard and get a first otherwise it might not pay off.
:twisted:
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That sucks. 90K for Uni? I commend your grandparents however. They are doing an incredible thing for you should you take the course.
May I remind you that Physics especially is the science that is dying off the fastest. Most Sciences are in decline since schools kids dont take it up. If you do choose to take it, Getting a job wont be a problem. The physics PT in my old school can chop and change which school she goes to because of the huge shortage of physics teachers. Not saying your going to be a teacher, but jobs involving physics are around with no one to fill them. My advice, if you choose to go. Make sure you get 100% out of it. The jobs are there, very high paying jobs.
Follow your heart
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thanks for the inputs. HTH I've always kept in touch with the admissions people at Cambridge but there's nothing they can do. They won't give me a bursary either because my fund deficit was too large, so they don't think I'm worth trying to help. If we sold the house, then we'd have more than the required amount, so again I won't get bursaries. If there are thousands of other rich kids from other countries who would pay twice the money to get in, why bother with me?
One thing I find particularly annoying is that refugee kids get to go to uni for normal fees. Fair enough let them have refuge in the country but why do they get support for higher education? We've been paying taxes at higher rates than other people for the past 8 years and we get no support.
Encouraging to know that in real world the degree will be able to open lots of doors for me. deg0ey made an interesting point though, it's true that I did apply there for the name. But I liked the place when I visited although it did seem a bit small.
It's quite interesting that most of you guys think I should go. I joined a physics forum and asked the same question and they said that it doesn't make much difference where you go if you're doing physics. Only the graduate study matters or something. I guess that's if youre going into research.
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I keep forgetting you're from leeds, lazyninja.
Are you the one that nabbed that Laney AOR from my hands, me missing out by a meer two quid? :P i think so...
This is quite interesting for me actually, ever since high school i have been trying to figure out what degree i should go for, what to study, bla bla. I have no real aspirations to do any particular thing, but i do remmeber physics being quite interesting, and i heard there is a massive shortage of physics teachers...
Is studying physics a good idea for a general degree?
That's all i'm after, not to study a specific subject really, but i don't want to be cornered off into one area, i was origionaly studying computing but, my god, being stuck in the world of IT would have drove me insane.
Hmm!
And, i'd say wait two years... surely you can apply again?
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Physics is statistically the most profitable degree as it sets you up for anything - banking, law, any science or technology based job. High level employers are not interested in specific skills learned during degrees but a level of literacy and mathematical ability. Physics provides those criteria. I interview trainees in my work and physics is one of those degrees that open doors.
As to Cambridge, i'm biased because I went there - it is one of the best universities in the world, its reputation is known worldwide and most employers look at the words MA (Cantab) as a magic ticket.
So, yes its worth hardship, but preferably your own. I can see your dilemma, your grandparents would be making a massive sacrifice - is there no way of negotiating a deferral of your place?
I agree with Elliot. Cambridge is a magic ticket.
If you do not do it you will regret it for the rest of your life. I am sure you would do the same for your grandchildren and count yourself lucky you have such caring and loving family.
Yes its £90k, but your earning power in this country, at present and if you decide to apply yourself is immense.
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I joined a physics forum and asked the same question and they said that it doesn't make much difference where you go i
how many of them do you think got offered a place at cambridge :wink:
it's a huge decision, one that i wouldn't particularly relish having to make. having said that, i think Ted hit the nail on the head.
if you don't do it, you'll always be wondering "what if?", which isn't a great feeling.
it's a fantastic opportunity, just getting the place, and the fact that it is possible for you to afford it (one way or another).
i would also agree with deg0ey; i know of people who have deliberately turned down places at the big Uni's just because they felt they fitted in better at other places. And when its a 90k decision, it's more important than ever to make sure cambridge is the place you really want to be.
Overall, i would go for it mate, im sure your grandparents really want you to succeed and achieve the best for yourself, (and believe that you can do so), and that's why they're willing to raise the cash in the first place.
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Sorry to rain on the parade here but....
Cambridge is just another University among many in the global elite and top recruiters have many more choices than ever before.
It does open doors if you play the game right but you have got to show there is more about you than simply A* grades to make it work.
Results will get you in but it takes much more to keep you there and make it pay.
The Oxbridge friends and colleagues of mine that have gone on to stellar careers are the ones who pushed hard toward a clear post-graduation goal in business. They pursued these commercial interests throughout their time at Uni and went straight to work with these City companies after graduating.
If you hope to earn 90K+ post-graduation you should have the brains and balls to know how you plan to achieve it prior to borrowing the 90K.
Tuition fees are an investment and all the high earning / high quality graduates I've known have recognised them as such.
I'm not telling you that you shouldn't borrow the money but I am saying be as shrewd as the people you are going to play poker with before you sit at the table.
Good luck PDT_002
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Cambridge is just another university - Not worth sticking your grandparents on the streets.
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Here are a few more ideas:
Your grandparents are very proud of your offer at Cambridge, by helping you with the money they will feel a part of your life and they want to give you this opportunity. If you turn them down this will hurt their feelings and their family pride. Imagine how happy and proud they'll be telling their friends and neighbours that their grandchild is studying physics at cambridge.
Japanese people, especially older generations, have a very different sense of values and family than most western people. For them this isn't a sacrifice, it's the chance for them to help you.
Japanese houses are not built to last, they are designed to be pulled down and rebuilt. This means that as a house gets old it literally starts to fall apart so it must be rebuilt, this is extremely expensive.
Your grandparents may actually be better off selling their house and the land it's on (this is where the real value lies although it does depend where they live), giving you 90k and use the rest of the money they have left over to get an apartment. Also as your grandparents get older any property they own may be passed on to your parents, who will then be liable to pay tax on it.
I think you may actually be doing everyone a favour, but obviously the final decision is yours.
On a slightly different note I wonder why a university would be so keen to accept a student who's going to pay 90k but not so happy to allow the student to wait a few years and then pay standard rates?
:roll: :roll: Education is a business as well.
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Gingataff : thanks for the further information about japanese houses, as I love learning something new every day.
On the original topic, I realised that I was being a little vague in my original answer.
If you believe you can make a success of the degree ( and the doors it may open) then you have to try.
When it comes to education and parents or grandparents think differently, If it makes a difference to future prospects then it's not viewed as a sacrifice (as other people would see it)
Gingataff is also correct it could very well be felt a little insulting not to accept.
Rob...
BTW it's costing me over 600 quid a month for my daughter to go to a good school. It means doing without stuff (like new pickups) and living 400 miles from home. But it's what parent's (and grandparents) do. It ensures that our genes have th best chance of survival ;)
Sorry to bring the I into it
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just a quick question- have you looked into what the price of other universities will be given your status?
surely cambridge cant be the only uni that are charging extra?
sorry you may have covered this already, but it seems quite an important factor.
after all, cambridge could be an expensive 90k, but there might not even be one under 75. (just a hypothetical statement that lol)
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Cambridge costs about £4k more per year for those classed as 'foreign' students because you have to pay the college as well as the University. So Cambridge and Leeds (for example) are about £11,900 per year for the University, but at Cambridge you would have to pay the extra for the college. So all in all tuition is £12-16k over the course of the degree.
Living expenses are on top of course.
BTW - Will you become eligible during your degree for UK funding? Would this help you out in later years?
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Yeah Cambridge is £4500 per year more expensive than the others. If I go to Leeds then it would be the cheapest option because I can stay at home.
I will qualify for permanent residency in oct 2008 so I will class as a home student in 2009. Whatever status you have at the start of the course gets carried through to the end. I originally thought you could change but apparently not, so that's why I have to wait (if we don't sell the house).
I don't think I'd enjoy it in the city to be honest. I'm more of a scientist/engineer type guy. I would preferably like to stay within the field. If I do that, then would you say it's not very likely I'll be earning much? I'm actually thinking of switching to engineering because of better job prospects. I heard you can move from NatSci to Engineering.
noodle, it's not like my grans wouldnt have anywhere to go. If that was the case I wouldnt dream of doing that.
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Yeah, I can see why you'd prefer to stay within the field - that's my preferred end-point also...Although I'm doing Chemistry rather than physics.
Do you mind me asking what made you choose Cambridge over Oxford? My mind was made up by the NatSci course and the fact that I'd have to continue doing physics modules, and I couldn't face any more physics after A-Level :lol:
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Yeah, I can see why you'd prefer to stay within the field - that's my preferred end-point also...Although I'm doing Chemistry rather than physics.
Do you mind me asking what made you choose Cambridge over Oxford? My mind was made up by the NatSci course and the fact that I'd have to continue doing physics modules, and I couldn't face any more physics after A-Level :lol:
Haha but physics is the only "proper" science... C'mon we all know that! :wink:
I was actually attracted by the diverse aspect of the course because in the end you specialize anyway I thought I might as well learn a bit of other subjects as well. I'm turned off Chemistry now, I did an year in the industry this year, worked for a lab and I'm now sick of it! :lol:
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Most of my friends who did Natsci or Engineering are earning bucket loads now - quite a few stayed on and did PhDs, with relatively good private industry grants (like from Sony or Microsoft). Those that are'nt professors now have niche jobs as technical directors in either silicon valley or the silicon fens (i.e. Cambridge). So even if you want to doodle formulae on white boards in the lab, you can progress pretty far if you work hard.
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i think the other thing to remember (and i'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade here, i just think it's fair to point it out) is that oxford/cambridge is liable to be a LOT more work. and you have a lot more people who have straight a's (i.e. almost everyone) versus most other universities where the entrance requirements for physics are liable to be a lot lower.
Yes, a cambridge degree is probably worth a lot more than one from a "normal" university- but is a worse degree from cambridge (say, a 2:2 or third) worth more than, say, a first from a well-respected, but not oxbridge, university?
I'm not saying you'd get the worse degree, obviously, but you know what i mean. A lot of jobs state you must have a 2:1. I don't know, there may be leeway if you went to oxbridge, but there may not.
Worth thinking about, i guess.
EDIT: bear in mind, I'm extremely lazy, and the "extra work" part of it would really annoy me. It may not annoy you. :lol:
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In comes the chemistry muscle...
Name isn't everything though, I remember a very senior lecturer tell us all that if I go to a job interview alongside a Oxford/Cambridge graduate with the same degree then I would get the job 90% of the time. All because my uni is well known for giving 5x as much practical experience.
Weigh it up dude, none of us can give you the answer, if you wanna go to Cambridge then go for it. Try out some other Uni's though. Some of the Scottish unis are just as prestigious but education costs less up here. Possibly even for you :wink:
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Haha but physics is the only "proper" science... C'mon we all know that! :wink:
Well, as my old physics teacher used to say: If it moves, it's biology, if it stinks it's chemistry and if it doesn't work, it's physics :P
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I passed on Cambridge as I didn't think it was for me and went to Imperial college instead. From experience a student with a first in Physics from either Cambridge/Imperial or Warwick will start on the same salary, if we're talking about jobs in the city's financial district.
If you're talking about research jobs then its going to take a lot of time to repay the 90K-if you need to that is?
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In comes the chemistry muscle...
hey, i've already posted in this thread!
:lol:
nah, i don't have a notion about chemistry, to be honest, nor any muscles... :cry:
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My grandad is keen for me to go but my grandma thinks I should wait... I guess if both of them aren't completely sure I should pull out?
I've been looking for jobs and I might have an opportunity with Jacobs Engineering. That would be good.
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Maybe another way to think about it?
What would you have to beg/borrow/steal to go to another university? From what I have gathered from the thread to date it seems like this would be £4,500 a year less than Cambridge - and you have to put up with 2 years as a foreign student - so would mean that Cambridge would cost you £9K more than the other choice. (Or am I missing something?) Therefore the question is - "is Cambridge worth £9K more than Plan B?" - I think that the answer to this must be "Yes" - Oxbridge still means things when applying for certain jobs - also agree with previous comments - Maths/Physics sets you up for many possible careers - lots of City jobs come from those disciplines.
Good luck whatever you decide to do.
Mike
PS - As a former Dark Blue I shouldn't be commenting on anyone who is thinking of going to the 'Fenland Poly'.....
:lol:
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^thats a much more eloquent way of asking what i was trying to say :lol:
but yes that's what i was thinking. although he did say it wont be putting up for the extra costs for just 2 years- apparently once you start on the basis of a foreign student you pay that same price for the entire length of the degree.
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So it is still only £18K difference, rather than the full £90K?
Just like not buying one of these really!!
;-)
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/1960-Pre-CBS-Fender-Stratocaster-100-Original-inc-OHSC_W0QQitemZ320136505026QQihZ011QQcategoryZ33039QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
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Based on a quick look at the Cambridge and Leeds websites the only difference is the college fees PLUS the potential option of a 4th year - college - I know that it would be cheaper to live in Leeds than Cambridge but you are still talking about £3500-4000 a year for college fees plus (???) say £1500 living - so about £16,500 over 3 years.
Ninja - have you explored all the scholarship/bursary routes?
Have you thought about trying to get a Japanese company to sponsor you?
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Leeds is cheaper than that because I could stay at home and not have to pay accomodation.
I did ask for sponsorships and scolarships. No luck. Most are for home students only and the one I was eligible for was turned down. Companies I contacted won't fund such big amount and the Japanese government only funds students from Japan, not someone who already lives there.
I'm ****ed basically. Just got a letter last night saying show us £97.5k or you can't come. Yes I did say £97.5K it seems they were underestimating the first time!! :evil: