Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Bird on July 25, 2007, 06:48:15 PM
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This guitar has a weird finish that Ibanez calls "gravure" (a printing process I believe). Anyhoo, it's more like a thin coat of plastic or something. Playing it unplugged it has a very dead *plink* sound. The Miracle Man/Trilogy pups I had in it sounded good, except the next wasn't so great. Kind of flat and hollow sounding. The impression you get is that your sound is all pickup, the guitar seems to work against the tone. Something I blame entirely on the guitar. Would stripping this cr@p finish off help 'warm' up the sound of this thing :?: Since I sold the pups that were in it I could make this one a summer project.
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I guess the gravure finish in this case is what Fender called Foto Flame - I think it's a thin "film" stuck on the guitar's top to fake the look of flamed maple.
Stripping it ought to liven up the tone a little, but if it's really bad you probably just have a duff piece of timber. And without the finish you'll have an ugly duff piece of timber.
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probably just worth flogging the body on ebay . stripping is a lot of work and there are no garantees it will improve anything
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I'm thinking of stripping the finish on my Gibson SG Special, is this an easy job or should it be done by someone who knows what their doing?
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well im thinking of stripping down my ibanez rocket roll because the finish is black.....i hate black guitars plus the guitar is dented to hell.
what would i use to fill all this in
and is there anything i should use for stripping it or shall i just go at it with sandpaper?
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The SG Special has a nitrocellulose finish which will strip quite easily with Nitromors - messy job though. And be careful around the headstock if you don't want to lose the Gibson logo.
Not sure about the Ibanez - it probably has some kind of poly finish which is a lot harder to remove. It might be easier to fill the dents and scratches then spray over the existing paintwork.
Wez and Feline will probably have much better suggestions than I do.
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well im thinking of stripping down my ibanez rocket roll because the finish is black.....i hate black guitars plus the guitar is dented to hell.
what would i use to fill all this in
and is there anything i should use for stripping it or shall i just go at it with sandpaper?
I used a heat gun + cabinet scr@per or whatever they're called, worked a treat :D
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heat guns are ok but i see lots of guitars that have been stripped that way and need a solid finish to cover up the burn marks!!! If you are going to do a solid finish you only really need to scuff sand the body with finishing paper so the new paint has something to stick too - not worth the effort of stripping completely
Dents is a guitar can be steamed out. You can put a small wet peice of cloth over the dent and then hold a soldering iron onto it to steam it - try to keep it as localised as possible. This works best when the wood fibres havnt actually torn and obviously you need to let the wood dry again before finishing
if using chemical strippers then do it outside and make sure the stripper is fully neutrilised before you continue - - but be warned - strippers wont touch most finishes except for the nitrocellulose ones!!!
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heat guns are ok but i see lots of guitars that have been stripped that way and need a solid finish to cover up the burn marks!!! If you are going to do a solid finish you only really need to scuff sand the body with finishing paper so the new paint has something to stick too - not worth the effort of stripping completely
Dents is a guitar can be steamed out. You can put a small wet peice of cloth over the dent and then hold a soldering iron onto it to steam it - try to keep it as localised as possible. This works best when the wood fibres havnt actually torn and obviously you need to let the wood dry again before finishing
if using chemical strippers then do it outside and make sure the stripper is fully neutrilised before you continue - - but be warned - strippers wont touch most finishes except for the nitrocellulose ones!!!
yeah some of the dints are bad really bad where the wood is torn.... ill look into it.... im just thinking of either stripping it down and depending on the wood grain staining it but then again ive always wanted a snow white flying v,,,,,...... if i was just to paint other wouldnt that deaden the tone a bit?????? and what would i use to coat it to keep it all shiny and protected???
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Dont be drawn into this whole finish thing. Its true that some guitars sound much better without a finish, if you ever get to try an unfinished acoustic its a bloody revelation!!! and it does make a small difference os some solid guitars as well, a bit more differnce to semi's like 335's.
But adding a bit more finish wont make much tonal difference and the tonal effect that is there will just as likely be positive as it will negative.
thin finishes are certainly better but its one of them things that you need supermans ears to hear- especially on most factory produced guitars!!
generally people say it sounds more resonant acoustically but this rarely translates across to the ampflified sound.
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Dont be drawn into this whole finish thing. Its true that some guitars sound much better without a finish, if you ever get to try an unfinished acoustic its a bloody revelation!!! and it does make a small difference os some solid guitars as well, a bit more differnce to semi's like 335's.
But adding a bit more finish wont make much tonal difference and the tonal effect that is there will just as likely be positive as it will negative.
thin finishes are certainly better but its one of them things that you need supermans ears to hear- especially on most factory produced guitars!!
generally people say it sounds more resonant acoustically but this rarely translates across to the ampflified sound.
ah thats cool then, what kind of paint/clear coat/laquer would you reccomend
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depends, if you are going over an old finish you can get good results with car paint- but always check the compatability in a discreet area first. You also need to keep it down to about 3 coats a day other wise it will never harden properly
for a quicker finish i like to use rustins plastic coating because you can apply a coat every 15 minutes and its a chemcial cure so will harden off just fine. It also takes a spirit bases stain quite well. Buut rustins is less likely to be compatable with your old finish so may require a complet strip down of the guitar. because you can pile the stuff on i have had good results doing this with a brush in the past and then sanding most of it back so its completely flat.
I really prefer nitrocellulose but its less forgiving for a beginner and needs at least a few months to cure
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ah my brother does car respraying so that will be the easiest and free-est option for me :P
how many coats would you say it would need?
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I think it'll be easier if I just go with a lower output pup for the neck position on the RT. Thanks for the info. It may come in handy for future Warmoth projects. :)
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I think it'll be easier if I just go with a lower output pup for the neck position on the RT. Thanks for the info. It may come in handy for future Warmoth projects. :)
oh yeah sorry for hijacking your thread :)
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Car paints are great if you're doing solid colours - I've got several guitars I did 15-20 years ago and the finishes have held up really well. I wouldn't bother with metallics though, unless you're a very skilled sprayer, because you can't really wet-sand between coats.
But if you're going to use spray cans make sure it's in a very well ventilated area that's easy to clean!
You get loads of little paint particles in the air which settle as dust. A long, long time ago I spray-painted a couple of guitars in my parents' kitchen, and when I'd finished (20-odd coats later) there was a fine layer of blue dust everywhere, even inside the cupboards.
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Oh yeah I burnt the back of my guitar a bit when I was using a cr@p small heat gun :oops: When I did the front though I used a big one I found in the garage which worked perfectly with no burn marks, it actually looks great since I put some gun stock oil on it -
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/tomr61/CIMG7229.jpg)
:D
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if you do metallic paint you dont sand between coats at all - you need to do lots of light coats because if it goes on to thick all the metalic particles 'flop' and you loose the 3d effect they can creat. Once you have a good solid colour coat built up you apply a lot of clear coats which can be levelled out and buffed up
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I think it'll be easier if I just go with a lower output pup for the neck position on the RT. Thanks for the info. It may come in handy for future Warmoth projects. :)
oh yeah sorry for hijacking your thread :)
Not a problem. It's very useful information for future projects. I'm taking notes here :)
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ah my brother does car respraying so that will be the easiest and free-est option for me :P
how many coats would you say it would need?
that really depends on the paint and spraying gear your brother has - if he has sprayed before let im judge it
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Gonna try bumping my question here again...
I'm thinking of stripping my black SG back to the wood, then possibly staining it a la tom there. What steps need to be taken or would it be easier for a professional to undertake this job?
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already answered
The SG Special has a nitrocellulose finish which will strip quite easily with Nitromors - messy job though. And be careful around the headstock if you don't want to lose the Gibson logo.
and
if using chemical strippers then do it outside and make sure the stripper is fully neutrilised before you continue - - but be warned - strippers wont touch most finishes except for the nitrocellulose ones!!!
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Yep, as I mentioned, it should be easy to strip the SG with Nitromors because it has a nitro finish. Follow all the instructions about keeping it off your skin and out of your eyes, because it stings like hell.
Instead of neutralising it with water like it says on the tin, use white spirit because it won't raise the wood grain.
Then... I don't know, because I've never done a stained or oil/wax finish. Wez? :?:
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Cool, I just wanted a comprehensive answer from someone who knows what they're doing before destroying my gibson... Any on-line tutorials for this kind of thing? And whats the chances of the wood looking cack?
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well personally i dont do much direct staining - i tend to use tinted lacquer instead. the problem with adding stain directly to the wood is that it is very easy to make it look streaky or patchy - there are ways around this but it all takes a lot of practice. Plus the stain soaks into the ends more than the front so it goes darker, and any imperfections will soak up more stain and by highlighted
the only thing i will direct stain would be a figured maple top, and that takes a lot of prep to avoid the problems i mention above. but it looks so damn good!!
oiling on the other hand is very easy and i thing i have described it on here before so have a go with the search function
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Thanks Wez, I shall get a-searching and let you all know if i decide to strip the gibbo naked. Woo-Ha.
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Any on-line tutorials for this kind of thing?
I don't know about online, but there's a good section on finishing in Dan Erlewine's Guitar Player repair book. Probably the Melvyn Hisc--k book too, but I can't actually remember what it says about finishing.
And whats the chances of the wood looking cack?
Well, if it's a new-ish SG Special the body's probably 2 or 3 pieces, joined at fairly random points (i.e. not down the centre). Mahogany's pretty straight-grained though, so the joins aren't usually too obvious. But you might be unlucky and find the pieces are different colours.
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Here's a site in the States
http://www.reranch.com/
I don't think they ship outside the US but they have a forum and a couple tutorials on prepping and painting and whatnot. :)
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I've lost count of how many times this thread has been hijacked, so I don't feel the need to apologise :P
I'm looking at getting a new neck (and possibly body) for my strat (see avatar) from the land of Warmoth. Now, they're charging £83 to do a clear gloss finish on a body, and £41 for the same thing on the neck. I know it would be cheaper to do it myself, but how much work is actually involved? Would I get a decent result, or am I likely to **** it up?
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the price warmoth are charging is good because there finish will be of a very high standard.
you can probably get good results doing it youself if you read up on it and practice on scr@p but its still unlikely to be as good as warmoths
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Ok, well I'm mainly looking to get it as cheap as I can (being a student and all that) but I suppose the finish is probably not the place to cut back
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the price warmoth are charging is good because there finish will be of a very high standard.
you can probably get good results doing it youself if you read up on it and practice on scr@p but its still unlikely to be as good as warmoths
Too bad Warmoth don't have the nitro option. It just ages nicely
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well as to painting location experience etc my brother is a proffesional vehicle sprayer so itll be all fine on that front.... also helps me to get it done for free :D
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One more question - I'm gonna get rear routing for my warmoth body, and I wanted to know whether I need pickup rings or not - I'm not entirely sure when they're supposed to be used, and whether they'd be necessary on this as I have covered pickups (does that even make a difference?)
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One more question - I'm gonna get rear routing for my warmoth body, and I wanted to know whether I need pickup rings or not - I'm not entirely sure when they're supposed to be used, and whether they'd be necessary on this as I have covered pickups (does that even make a difference?)
Up to you, really - if you don't have pickup rings you'll have to screw the pickups directly to the body. One school of thought is that this improves the tone because the pickups vibrate with the wood; with rings, the springs act as a sort of suspension system to (partially) isolate the pickups from the body's resonance. Of course if you have direct mounting with springs or foam under the pickups to adjust the height it negates most of the resonance thing anyway.
Covered pickups make no difference to the direct mount/ring mount question, although if you went for direct mounting I suppose the covers would protect the exposed parts of the pickup.
Personally (FWIW) I prefer mounting rings, because it's easier to adjust the height and they just look tidier.
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you can screw them direct to the body with foam underneath.
Personally i like humbuckers with rings around them and singlecoils direct mounted but on some guitars a neck humbucker looks a little bulky (like if its with a tele bridge) witha ring around it so i prefer to direct mount.
Some people claim there are tonal benefits to direct mounting because the pickup isnt isolated from the bodies vibration like it is when mounted to a ring with a spring inbetween. but for some styles the pickup performs better for being isolated from those vibrations