Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => Time Out => Topic started by: Twinfan on August 14, 2007, 08:14:23 PM
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Seeing as how we have a nice little guitar community here, I thought I'd try and tap into it a little if I may. Tell me to bog off if I'm out of order :)
Basically, it's like this. I've been playing guitar for about 25 years (since I was a nipper) and I've got a LOT of guitar related knowledge stored in my head. Models, features, history etc - it comes from 25 years spent reading magazines, tweaking, buying (and occasionally selling ;) ) guitars, amps and pedals. Anyone who knows me will tell you it's an obsession - I am the very definition of GAS.
My day job is completely unrelated to the music industry - I'm a computer systems manager. However, I'm under the threat of redundancy at the moment and could possibly be given my marching orders in the new year with a pot of cash for my trouble. Enough to start a business probably, and some credits for a running your own business course...
So here's the dilemma. What kind of guitar business could I set up? There's no way I can compete with the likes of GAK, Coda, Machinehead, Music Ground, Sound Control etc so I'm trying to come up with a niche market. A unique selling point, something that could be a success on a relatively small scale and make a reasonable living out of. Some ideas that I've discussed with people so far include:
* Coffee shop combined with a guitar shop - making the shop a social hang out
* A specialist shop in one particular model - an SG specialist for example
* A second hand only shop focussing on "bang for buck" deals
What do you think would make a great guitar shop? What's missing in the guitar world? What do you think would work as an idea?
Any thoughts you might have would be greatly appreciated, and will earn you a permanent discount at my emporium :D
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i think the second hand guitar shop aint a bad idea but i dont know how profitable it is. Most shops around me are just focusing on newbie guitars and i miss being surrounded by second hand bargains as soon as i walk in.
i wouldnt go with the 'just SG' idea, Gibson Sg's are such a bad design !!(ducking and running).
How about 'coffee shop/blues club/second hand guitars' kind of thing
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I dont think that a specialist shop for one model would be very good, not enough variety and you wont attract as many customers I'm guessing..
Coffee shop combined with guitar shop could be good, but also seems kinda weird as the two are unrelated really :lol: The main thing I find missing from all the guitar shops round here is competetive pricing, they're always much more expensive than internet shops, then I guess its not possible in a small shop as you cant order as many as a big internet shop or something. But then if you cant get the prices low enough, maybe offer free/discount repairs/set ups for up to a year after purchase or something like that, to make people want to buy from you instead of a cheaper internet seller who wont offer this service.
Also, all the shops round here seem to stock cr@p amps, mostly solid state Marshalls etc. I'd like to see a place where theres loads of decent amps to play through. Basically I think you should decide what the shops in your area are missing and see if you can offer what they arent..
Maybe you shouldn't listen to me though, I'm no expert, I've only taken A level business studies and dont know if I've even passed that yet :lol:
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i wouldnt go with the 'just SG' idea, Gibson Sg's are such a bad design !!(ducking and running).
How dare you! ;) Not enough demand for an SG shop, it was just an example!
How about 'coffee shop/blues club/second hand guitars' kind of thing
That's the kind of thing I thought might work. Like you, I enjoy searching out a good used guitar. The supply of good second hand instruments at the right price is the hurdle I see with this one, as eBay rules the world to some extent.
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Also, all the shops round here seem to stock cr@p amps, mostly solid state Marshalls etc. I'd like to see a place where theres loads of decent amps to play through. Basically I think you should decide what the shops in your area are missing and see if you can offer what they arent..
Thanks Tom. The trouble I have round here is that most brands have a dealer pretty nearby, either the centre of Manchester or just outside. I'd need to look at another area where there's a gap maybe?
Competing with the internet is a no-go. I can't buy the volume that Peter Cooks or GAK do so I'll never compete on price. I need something that other gutar shops don't have - hence the coffee shop idea, or the good second hand stuff shop.
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I think the idea of a Guitar Shop/Coffee Shop/Sandwich Bar is a bloody great idea!
Set it in a town or city near a Secondary school and you'll get loads of lunchtime metalheads buying your coffee and trying out new gear - I know I would!!!
Also - Whenever I pop down to Soundcontrol with mates/family they always piss off to the Costa in the corner of the place - So instead of parents with credit cards standing around idly being bored they can have a coffee and read the paper!
Not only would you have gangs of young guitar players coming around - You'd also have a pretty decent business.
Now - Twinfan, seeing as you're on the net and have alot of knowhow in guitars etc - You're allready in on a Niche.
Most guitar shops around me stock awful stuff - Obviously things like Fender Strats and Crybabys are needed in every shop irrelevent of how good or bad they are due to sales figures - But since you have a good know-how on gear, a guitar shop filled with things you actually want to buy is a rarity in itself - Stock ESP, Tokai, Ibanez and other Japanese guitar makers on top of Some Gibson/Fender stuff and some entry level equipment and you have a good guitar shop.
Honestly - the main problem with guitar shops around London is that very few of them actually have desirable guitars/amps - I think the only shops in London where I would actually want to buy stuff would be World of Music due to their Peavey amps, Rose Morris due to their ESPs, Organics, Oranges and Engls - Although their prices are horrendous, Rockers due to their ESPs, Mesa, Ibanez' and the Wembley Guitar center, due to their Engls and Mesa.
Back to the Coffee shop idea - If you had it open at nights for evening shows and a bar maybe, you could have local guitarists playing in the evening, or new bands etc - Would be a really cool place to hang out!
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The coffee shop/guitar hangout sounds the best to me - make it really bo-ho with pix of classic artists and the coolest FREE jukebox known to man.
You could stock selected products that you really believe in - maybe if there were certain pedals, strings, capo's etc... that you like, then stock 'em.
I think a really great idea would be to have an in-shop amp tech so people could get their amp biased/serviced while they wait. Good amp techs are like gold-dust, you could get LOTS of repeat trade with the amp tech service and since biasing is a quick job, people could have their amp ready to go once they've finished their coffee.
Oh, and finally - Bog Off!!! :wink: :lol:
:twisted:
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Set it in a town or city near a Secondary school and you'll get loads of lunchtime metalheads buying your coffee and trying out new gear - I know I would!!!
I didnt think of that, great idea, I know I'd always be down there at lunch/free periods if there was one near me! Also the thing about parents going in with their kids is a good point, I know my dad hated waiting in shops when I was trying out stuff. Also, another complaint I have about a couple of the shops around here is that they're very opinionated and close minded, one in particular are total fender snobs and look down on anyone who play Gibsons with Marshall amps etc :x
I also think the amp tech would be a good idea, none of the shops round here seem to do work on amps.
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Tread carefully
Ebay has ripped the arse out of the secondhand guitar shop market
I have a friend who had to lose that side of his business because everybody started selling on ebay and cutting out the retail shop
A big amp shop that allowed all the makes to be compared side by side would be interesting with some nice guitars to try through them.
The coffee shop sounds cool but would need to be worked carefully to avoid light-fingered activity.
Also it would become a hangout where the space might not be earning very well per sq metre - with property prices the way they are , always a concern.
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Hmm. So far we've got:
* Coffee shop for parents
* Focus on amps, possible in-house amp tech (train myself?)
* Non-mainstream brands (ESP, Tokai, Orange, Engl)
Sounds like my kind of place so far ;)
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I don't know much about business but tbh i can't see secondhand shop being too profitable, coffee shop combined perhaps it might work but i just think those are weird things to put together.
Whatever you do i would definatley go with the guitar/amp tech guy idea, everyone needs guitar maintenance once in a while and people are always wanting pickups fitted and stuff so that could be a good little earner.
Maybe if you have the coffee shop and put a little stage up or have a corner for bands to play once in a while too, that could work. I don't know really, i think it's either going to work very well or fail.
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Maybe a basement or underground are where you can try out amps a loud as you want, though i think that already exists in some places.
Maybe have real life guitar auctions where people bid in the shop for a guitar and whoever goes the highest wins, though it all depends how many people go in there in the first place for that idea to work.
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MAYBE record dvds of you demoing stuff in the shop like those on youtube and you can sell that in there too or on an internet site, someone might like to see that, though i'm guessing if they wanted to do that they would try it out themselves.
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Not really a business on its own, but how about a vending machine built into a wall full of strings, leads, odd spare parts (perhaps reeds, drumsticks, valve oil too?) etc. so people could pick up useful bits of kit at any time of the day? I often need bits of kit, but the local shop only opens 9-5.
I had a similar idea about a rock n' roll hangout, I think band Fridays would be a great idea if you can find the space and licenses. If you could integrate a jukebox and a rotating selection of obscure new and old CDs/vinyl so people would go for your shop to hear new (and order in) leftfield bits of music. you can't compete on price, but you can on variety, if you can attract a young crowd willing to be different.
Definitely get a tech, or learn yourself, because I have to travel 10 miles by bus to the far side of oxford for a set up - It's an earner and brings people in.
bear in mind that while you may well dislike big names (and with good reason) they are the brands that sell, so keep some in, but get a reputation for having the very best gibsons/fenders/etc. if possible (no idea if the supply line will allow this) and remember that beginners will ALWAYS outnumber experienced guitarists; if you develop the friendly reputation crucial for small buisinesses, hopefully noobs will come to you over the local sound control or whatever, so have something in for them.
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Coffeeshop/guitar bar sounds like a good idea to me, but Jonathon has valid points there.
The 2nd hand 'bang for your buck' shop wouldn't really work from a business point of view, because you wouldn't make much money from it.
The guitar accessories vending machine sounds like a really good (and cool!) idea :)
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There are some great ideas are, i had an idea for a coffee shop/photography gallery type of thing a while ago, which then turned into the coffee shop/guitar shop and then i just gave up.
'cause i know it'd be night on impossible to get the turnover so that Rosetti would deal with me.
I could have easily done it selling low-end budget stuff, vintage etc, but that wouldnt have really made me happy inside. Infact i'd have hated it.
I think an Amp Emporium would be a great idea and thats one that i'd looked into before giving up (im just too young to do it) have decent guitars and accessories too ofcourse, but have that as a second point of the shop.
Also stock decent effects units! i want somewhere where i can try out the decent stuff...
I was considering going back into IT and becoming and IT Manager or, well, what you're doing sounds interesting enough, now you've gone and put me off :P maybe i should go back to the never-paying ever-deafening music photography...
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I think finding a niche is the way-as competing head on with the GAKs of this worls and, as Jonathan said, E-bay has upset the second hand market.Maybe have a look at getting support and semi exclusive deals with custom makers-I know many will be selling direct but a custom builder can be only in one place-you could perhaps be an outpost in another part of the company. Same maybe with custom amp builders-as an additional outlet for people to try out their stuff who would otherwise just get to visit websites. As we know from the BKP forum, there is also a healthy market for some of the better Japanese makers.
I went to a store the other day that sells many vintage guitars too-but that is riskty as you'd have to depend upon finding guitars and almost invariably that means getting someone to find them-plus that brings us back to the 'bay-but I would by far prefer to vist a store and try out a guitar and buy from someone who knows what they are doing .
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With my cynical hat on, I'd say if you want something different in a guitar shop employ staff who aren't arseholes :| . Goes without saying if you run it yourself of course, Dave 8) .
Concentrating on more specialised makes sounds a great idea. Maybe you could even be the UK distributor for some of the lesser known Japanese brands? Although (a) I have no idea what sort of quantities you'd have to agree to handle for such a deal to be feasible; and (b) there might be copyright issues over Fender/Gibson headstock shapes and the like if they're sold outside the Japanese market.
If you specialise in amps (or even just guitars), get some proper soundproof rooms! If you're a donkey of a player like me, it's terribly inhibiting trying out gear in the main showroom - and you can't actually hear anything properly anyway. Result - no sale, even if the money's burning a hole in your pocket.
The guitar shop/coffee shop idea could be brilliant, but I wonder if people would actually just come and hang out without buying coffee? And would you get any "just coffee" customers who weren't interested in the guitars? Maybe you could have two adjoining shops, which would function independently but complement each other.
(I'm assuming the world's biggest redundancy payment here! :lol: )
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I think the issue with stocking Edwards for example would be the headstock. I'm pretty sure Gibson would clamp down as I think they have the copyright over here. However, Tokai got away with it for a while until they got too big sales wise, so maybe Edwards would slip in easier? Worth considering possibly?
The amp store idea is great, if I can find a decent location. I'd need a building away from other people so noise isn't an issue.
A dis-used petrol station might be ideal as there seem to be a few of them round here, and they must be cheap...
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If you're genuinely thinking about doing this the coffee/guitar - shop is a great idea there's a little place in Glasgow called Biggars that have a similar scheme but piano and coffee shop although it does have a very small section for guitars and drums and a couple other miscellaneous items and sells sheet music downstairs.
Would be cool if you also sold records as well so you can attract other people as well as musicians.
Definitely nice to have a little boutique section but you will need mainstream stuff to keep the business going.
Need a hell of a lot to get this off the ground and running though if you think about all the costs involved.
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I would say it needs to be in the city centre so you get plenty of passing trade - going out of the city centre means people have to make a special journey to get there.
In the city centre there would be people who'd go there regular on lunch times/before work/after work for a coffee & club sandwich.
:twisted:
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I would say it needs to be in the city centre so you get plenty of passing trade - going out of the city centre means people have to make a special journey to get there.
In the city centre there would be people who'd go there regular on lunch times/before work/after work for a coffee & club sandwich.
:twisted:
Agreed.
There are guitar shops on the edge of Leeds that i've never even seen! nor ever intend going to, as i'd expect them to be pretty poor quality, i know at least two of them definately are. Unless you like danelectro gear.
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I think having liquids and guitars in the same place will lead to sticky guitars.
I also think that if you cater to the young'ins, adults will steer clear due to all the toneless racket.
Finally, ebay closed 2nd hand stores because guitar owners were getting shafted by the stores. Through ebay you can get what your guitar is actually worth without the middle man, who in many cases knows less about guitars than the buyer and seller.
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Having read all this, I think that specialization is key. Keep it offbeat.
And, most importantly --
Book in store demos and clinics! That will a) get people into your store and b) engender good feelings with the local guitar community.
Also, it would be good to have a bulletin board where people can post ads looking for band mates.
Just my 2 cents.
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I'd try to build/innitiate good relations with local bands - sell their CDs, help promote their gigs - this will bring them in the shop if nothing else.
If the premises has a celler you could put on gigs on an evening (which means a live-music license of course).
:twisted:
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just my opinion, but i don't see the coffee shop/guitar shop working out to well. as a kid atleast, i'd never go into it. might be the kind of place for adults, but you have to meet everyones needs. personally, i'd say stock a wide range of guitar brands and amps. most places that i go to just have marshall/ fender/gibson/ibanez. also, make it a point that you buy used gear. that way you'll slowly gather a used section. not many people buy guitars on ebay, people want to try stuff out first. also, used amps is a big plus. i've never seen a store with a selection of used amps. and with amps, it doesn't really matter if its used, its just cheaper.
it would also be a very good idea to hire a staff of musicians to give out lessons. the store i go to makes all there business giving 10-15 lessons an hour, and its a very small guitar shop. this way you have a steady income from lessons, and selling guitars is a bonus.
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not many people buy guitars on ebay, people want to try stuff out first.
where you been the last few years!!!
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as good as this forum is and the demo's are..
how about a guitar and a wide range of pickups you can drop in?
if you were to get it going, get a custom build with a hole in the back to do quick swaps
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I think all the ideas here have been really good. I really like the format that Vintage and Rare guitars have in London, but I'm always really intimidated when I go there.
A lounge, coffee shop sounds like a good idea, but property rental costs are rising and you have to be careful when you agree terms with Landlords, who often can and will screw small business owners over (I have a lot of experience here).
What I think is EXTREMELY POOR in most guitar shops and generally in the UK industry and I cannot underestimate its importance is CUSTOMER SERVICE. If you get this right your business will flourish. Most people have very strong brand loyalty and will keep coming back for more as long as they are happy. You must have a repair and amp tech service, because this is essential really.
I like the 2nd hand idea if they're, but I reckon you need to sell more exciting models of amps and stock pedals people can try with lots of different amps.
Another easy method would be to think of everything you hate about normal guitar shops and see if you can change this.
I hate most of the Denmark St stores. SOME staff are patronising dickheads, their stock is poor and they are MASSIVELY overpriced, but they have to be owing to the high property costs and staff overheads.
I think you will also need to have an e-bay presence too, as people have more comfort dealing with shops on ebay (especailly high value items).
Running your own business can be a nightmare, but the greater the risk, the greater the reward. Good luck!
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I'd try to build/innitiate good relations with local bands - sell their CDs, help promote their gigs - this will bring them in the shop if nothing else.
If the premises has a celler you could put on gigs on an evening (which means a live-music license of course).
:twisted:
I think getting a place with a cellar is smart - People enjoying coffee don't want to hear a load of kids noodling badly (and loudly). an underground room where you can crank is a fine idea.
also you could rent it out as band rehearsal/ recording space etc.
I think your best bet is to become a kind of hub for the local alternative community: while chavs may head to a particular park, alternative kids travel to twinfans cellar of rock for a drink, a chat and a GAS. get yourself a cult appeal and people will be drawn to it, and a good way of doing that is to support local bands (how about a small scale record label?)
perhaps build a second hand section where you take £30 for hanging up the guitars and getting people to see them, you may not make much profit, but it will bring people in, who will buy your strings and other small items.
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In general I would clearly try to be distinctive from the competition, don't be evrything for everyone.
If you read yellow pages, there are businesses that have such a fluffy proposition, I mean just read all the ads in the section for cleaning companies, there will be very few that stand out.
I actually like the SG idea, even the AC/DC idea would be good, sell everything that AC/DC play or that makes an AC/DC sound. The right SGs, Gretsch, Marshalls, TubeScreamers, BoR, etc. Obviously you'd need the best collection of AC/DC T-Shirts, DVDs etc as well.
That would be really distinctive but at the same time attractive to a big enough audience. Who knows if you do it smart, maybe Angus will drop by one day 8)
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Interesting idea Hunter - like a "classic rock" music shop? Selling Les Pauls, Marshalls, Cry Babys, Tubescreamers etc. Could have special demos each month: Clapton month, 'DC month etc showing off the gear the stars use/used?
Hmmmmm....
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perhaps build a second hand section where you take £30 for hanging up the guitars and getting people to see them.
Or sell on a % commission - that way you make more on high-value guitars, and it gives you an incentive to try to get the best price for them.
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I'd say a band of the month is a much better idea than an AC/DC shop; I just don't think theres a large enough market for it to be sustainable.
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Not everyone is as big a fan as Twinfan when it comes to ACDC.
Many people learn the songs - But normal people prefer playing ACDC on their guitars - Not Angus's guitar.
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the shop idea i wanted to persue was a kind of warmoth idea, but in more of an actual shop format than an online thing, where people can come and have a look at the 'showcase' of variations on bodies, necks, colours, styles, and choose what they like and have it all assembled for them there and then in-store. Ideal for those who want a custom guitar of high-quality parts, but aren't prepared for the wait. - and also it'd be a lot more of a hands-on experience, which i believe makes a lot of difference to seeing something and purchasing it off of a screen. People could actually feel the pre-made necks, and see the finishes for real.
Also - companies like Warmoth and Allparts etc. lack set-neck models, so I'd like to sell Les Paul blanks with the neck already glued in, and then let people choose the blank with the finish they like, choose the pups and electronics, tuners etc...
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perhaps build a second hand section where you take £30 for hanging up the guitars and getting people to see them.
Or sell on a % commission - that way you make more on high-value guitars, and it gives you an incentive to try to get the best price for them.
not too much though- thats what drives people to ebay.
If you use a 20% commision, the kind you need to make worthwhile profit, people will go elsewhere to sell. If you charge a low enough fee to encorage people to choose you over the bay/ small ads, you will build a good second hand section, which will draw people in, giving you passing trade and brand loyalty.
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first off, i have no idea about business. just so you've been warned... :lol: (i've read through the first page, i'll go back and read through page 2 and 3)
coffee shop sounds like a good idea; however, you'd want to be careful that people aren't eating a greasy sandwich, and then going straight to try the guitars. That couldn't help the condition of the guitars.
i agree with less well known, but good (and good value) brands. Gordon Smith, Japanese Tokais, etc.
problem is, a lot of the gear that more experienced players deem "rubbish", sells extremely well to beginners.
i agree about finding a niche. and tom had some good ideas about after-sales service.
EDIT: ok, read through most of the rest:
(a) With my cynical hat on, I'd say if you want something different in a guitar shop employ staff who aren't arseholes :| . Goes without saying if you run it yourself of course, Dave 8) .
(b) If you specialise in amps (or even just guitars), get some proper soundproof rooms! If you're a donkey of a player like me, it's terribly inhibiting trying out gear in the main showroom - and you can't actually hear anything properly anyway. Result - no sale, even if the money's burning a hole in your pocket.
(a) +1. Far from every music shop worker is a tool, but there are enough that having a nice guy (or guys, or girls) in the shop could make all the difference.
(b) agreed, a soundproof room is awesome. And far too few shops have them.
I think having liquids and guitars in the same place will lead to sticky guitars.
haha, beaten to it.
Some new ideas:
Could you sell second hand stuff on commission? that might be an idea. A lot of people (myself included) are wary of selling something to a shop for, say, £200, and then going in the next day to see it marked for £400. It would mean no money up front for the seller, but at least they'd know how much they were paying for the service.
Kids: I dunno. My thinking (could be way off) that they're only kids for a few years. If you make friends when they're 16, you could have a customer for life. Soundproof rooms could come in handy here if you want to avoid it annoying other more mature customers. Though having several soundproof rooms will doubtless get expensive very, very quickly.
Oh, and have a pedalboard set up at all times. I'm not a big pedal guy, but when i realise that a lot of the time the guy in the shop has to run looking a lead, a battery, an amp, and then you realise you can only try one pedal at a time etc.... more often than not i don't even try the thing. which means i definitely won't buy...
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I used to work in music retail and still have quite a few friends in the business and I can tell you that in the UK 2 things killed the trade in/secondhand market. The initial one was free ads in guitar magazines, and then ebay was the nail in the coffin.
I had an idea that perhaps you might want to think about. It is a pre/post production studio with instrument and outboard rentals. There are so many people doing home recording but who don't realy have the gear to get a good sound. If you had a place with several different size rooms you could set up workstations with good mics, outboard gear and even a studio with amps. I know that there are a lot of different packages/hardware used, but if you have pro-tools, cubase and sonar, I would think you have most people covered. You can send them home with the project on DVD, and this will make them more likely to come back for more mixing/tweaking.
If you have CD duplication too, that would probably bring in a decent extra income. Add in repairs and hire and I think you might have a decent business model.
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I used to work in music retail and still have quite a few friends in the business and I can tell you that in the UK 2 things killed the trade in/secondhand market. The initial one was free ads in guitar magazines, and then ebay was the nail in the coffin.
I had an idea that perhaps you might want to think about. It is a pre/post production studio with instrument and outboard rentals. There are so many people doing home recording but who don't realy have the gear to get a good sound. If you had a place with several different size rooms you could set up workstations with good mics, outboard gear and even a studio with amps. I know that there are a lot of different packages/hardware used, but if you have pro-tools, cubase and sonar, I would think you have most people covered. You can send them home with the project on DVD, and this will make them more likely to come back for more mixing/tweaking.
If you have CD duplication too, that would probably bring in a decent extra income. Add in repairs and hire and I think you might have a decent business model.
Sounds awesome! Studio with an amp and effects you could use / hire.
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Got to admit Phil, that sounds good to me too. Not a full on studio for pros, and the cost associated with it, but a decent "home" recording studio. Couple of laptops, good mics, amps and guitars for hire if required, drum kit.
Cheap demo emporium????
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I would suggest making friends with the local recording studios, if you are thinking of doing a bit of equipment hire (local TV and radio companys too)
One of the hinks I have noticed around here (and elsewhere) is the rise of the small valve amp. Yet apart from the Tiny Terror (and zvex Nanohead to an extent) there seems to be nowhere to try the bloody things out.
As for the ruse of EBay make use of it for yourself, and do EBay selling for those who are too lazy (or afraid to do it themselves), have an additional charge for setting the instrument up properly.
Rob...
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I used to work in music retail and still have quite a few friends in the business and I can tell you that in the UK 2 things killed the trade in/secondhand market. The initial one was free ads in guitar magazines, and then ebay was the nail in the coffin.
I had an idea that perhaps you might want to think about. It is a pre/post production studio with instrument and outboard rentals. There are so many people doing home recording but who don't realy have the gear to get a good sound. If you had a place with several different size rooms you could set up workstations with good mics, outboard gear and even a studio with amps. I know that there are a lot of different packages/hardware used, but if you have pro-tools, cubase and sonar, I would think you have most people covered. You can send them home with the project on DVD, and this will make them more likely to come back for more mixing/tweaking.
If you have CD duplication too, that would probably bring in a decent extra income. Add in repairs and hire and I think you might have a decent business model.
Hmmm, reading this I though what would be great: a place where I can crank my gear as much as I like ... and maybe record :wink:
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How about talking to some custom builders and showcasing their work. I live in the same village as a bloke who makes custom resonators to order. Problem is that when people come and try his stock models, they always end up buying them instead :roll:
You could have a wall with some examples of very small builders work (my mates reso's, Patrick Eggle acoustics etc - you're in a much better situation than me to say who's good). You could either sell some of the one's on the wall or act on behalf of the builder and take a cut of custom orders.
Imagine having 20 hand built instruments to play with. Hand built pedels etc - all the real top notch stuff. Obviously more to set up.
Speaking of reso's, the London Reso Centre has closed down and I don't think there's anywhere that has a really good collection.
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^ +1
I think if you source some custom builders of guitars and effects then build your stock round that you'll have a much more exclusive feel than if you stock all the usual names everyone else does. Also, you're never gonna beat the big dealers on price, so why bother stocking that stuff.
:twisted:
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I completely agree with that. I was in sound control the other week and they had new tele copies for £55. Obviously not the best axe in the world, but how the hell can you compete with a £55 guitar.
They actually seemed like a hell of a good guitar for the money too. Not too shabby at all.
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I remember going to a great second hand shop that was also a repair shop and custom build shop and I thought it was a really great idea.
All of the second hand stock was cleaned up, the fret work sorted out and any other repair work done. The result was that all the guitars played well. The customers were all gigging musicians who needed a reliable instrument, not collectors looking for a vintage at bargain prices or kids looking for the signature model of their favourite player. I think this was the key to their business.
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oh, forget, definitely have an internet presence (ebay, and/or your own site), and maybe advertise in the guitar mags? I don't know about anyone else, but i frequently check the guitar mag adverts for shops.
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starting up a new business, with an unusual model is always risky.
if it works you'll get great job satisfaction, and some cool new friends, and if not you stand to lose the lot.
in my opinion philking and feline made the best points so far.
i was talking to the owner of a music shop close to where my folks live in leatherhead. he makes almost all his money from selling beginner violins and guitars to parents for their kids... despite the fact he has some decent gear like matamp and gordon smith too. frankly his decent stuff is over priced, so theres no way i'd buy it, no disresepct to him - probably he cant make a profit by selling it at a competitive price.
also, hes a bit arrogant and opinionated ;) but of course you wouldn't have that problem twinfan, which already makes you a place i'd want to come back to.
a good amp shop is a great idea. i'd love a place where i can try different amps and cabs. i'd even drive to manc from oxford to visit. with the right advertising, it could work really well.
guess i'm just saying - be careful.
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I think Indy's suggestion is a good one. Walk in and you can see the options of what you want, but that would have to be of a small presence to be succesful I guess
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You have to do something special that will make people come to you raather than go to another shop
If you have a large enough shop...
1 Do the amp shop thing
2 Have a showcase with stuff from all the custom builders in the UK- stuff that you just cant find in regular shops- get enough makers involved and its like a guitar show in a shop
3. Have a tech that can make every guitar in the shop play so good you cant help but buy it....maybe either using the Stew-mac neck jig or the Plek profile machine
4 Stock good brands but ones that are not held in every shop elsewhere so you don't have to compete in a price war but rather have something special that people will travel to try out. I know a few shops that wont stock certain brands even though they are great guitars because some other shop or internet trader is slashing the arse out of the price and you are forced to sell for little or no profit (no way to run a retail business)
5 Import exclusive lines - like Edwards/ Burny/Greco or whatever
Something that others haven't got.
Something that you don't have to compete aggressively with on price.
6 +1 on the good mannered shop staff. No arrogance or attitudes!
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Thanks Jonathon, and everyone else, some great stuff coming through. I would be the only employee (at least to start with) so the poor customer service/bad attitude thing is a non-starter :D
In-house guitar and amp techs cost money so I think that's not possible to start with. I do, however, know a local amp tech who works from home and is looking to expand his workload. I think he'd be ideal for me.
The guitar tech is trickier, but I can do basic setups/intonation checks. It's just truss rod adjustments I'd need to train up on. Pickup swaps and electrical fixes I can do too, as I've rewired bunches of guitars.
A 'one man band' amp sales and unorthodox guitar brands stockist sounds like the winner so far. Site it close to schools and a coffee shop and I'm quids in?
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My luthier buddy does work for shops and it's a very good agreement.
He just got 3 flamed maple fender necks rather than money for some of his work.
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sounds like a plan, mixing coffee and guitars, two of my favourite things [hence CaffeineJunkie]
oh and if you need a website, gimme a shout :D
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The best idea that I've read in this thread (which I haven't read all of as I'm at work :lol:) would be an 'Amp Shop'.
The main gripe I have with most shops is the lack of (imo) any decent amps. As said in an earlier thread, most shops cater for customers with the 'run of the mill' line up of SS/Valvestate Marshalls and Line6 etc.
What I'd really like is to see is a shop that has some good-high quality amps, with a small selection of guitars (Strat, Tele, LP and something higher output) to try them with. Then atleast you can get an idea of how the amp would sound with the 'general' used guitars. If a customer was serious about an amp, they could then bring their own guitar/FX down to try the amp in more detail.
Even if you bought the test guitars used/2nd hand to cut costs down slightly, it would also keep down the amount of stuff you'd have to have in the shop, apart from amps obviously! :roll:
This is just an idea, and something I would personally like to see :)
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2 Have a showcase with stuff from all the custom builders in the UK- stuff that you just cant find in regular shops- get enough makers involved and its like a guitar show in a shop
Great idea!
This is what Asylum Guitars in NY does, and it's a terrific idea. I was able to compare head to head various Wayne Rock Legends, custom Charvels, custom Jacksons, etc and it really demystified the process. I ended up getting a Wayne and later scored an artist endorsement with them before I realized that Wayne and Michael only make one kind of guitar and wouldn't do any of the non-standard stuff I like. (reverse headstock, 1-3/4" nut, 6100 fret wire, non-standard wiring, etc)
The Guitar Asylum is a great store for the better heeled rock guitarist looking to spend a couple of grand on a guitar.
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or get a contact in US similarly fed up and into guitars who can get some CHEAP gear sent to stock ya :)
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2 Have a showcase with stuff from all the custom builders in the UK- stuff that you just cant find in regular shops- get enough makers involved and its like a guitar show in a shop
yep, i like that idea. I have had guitars in shops before but they never got enough interest because they were well out of the price range of most of the people that visited those 'general' guitar shops - not exactly making starter guitars here.
It would be good to have a 'grown-up' guitar shop where people could come and try the wares of the various luthiers that seem to be cropping up all over the place now - that would be worth travelling quite far to visit.
The only problem is how much profit is in it. people might just come to try out the different guitars before ordering something direct from the luthier who impresses them the most.
If you do go with the SG theme i can even make you a proper one for the shop!!! Not like that gibson rubbish :wink:
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Excellent post there from feline, agreed.
The only problem is how much profit is in it. people might just come to try out the different guitars before ordering something direct from the luthier who impresses them the most.
good point.
I think an amp shop would be a great idea- however, from posting around the various forums on the net, the vast majority of (at least casual) guitar players seem to be willing to buy like 20 guitars, but only want one amp. I dunno, it's like the guitars are more glamorous.... and the amount of guitarists willing to run something like a Paul Reed Smith through something along the lines of a Marshall MG is verging on criminal...
then again, if you have a niche market (like amps), even if you only have a 5% market, if you have 100% (or close to) of that market, you can do quite well. Plus you can still sell people their "one" amp...
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from posting around the various forums on the net, the vast majority of (at least casual) guitar players seem to be willing to buy like 20 guitars, but only want one amp. I dunno, it's like the guitars are more glamorous....
You're absolutely right, and I fit into that category. I don't know if guitars are more glamorous exactly, but there's a (kind of) magic ( :roll: )about them that makes them more than just the sum of their parts. That's what hobbies (for want of a better word) are all about. It's exactly the way people feel about antiques, or stamps, or those horrible collectible plates in the Sunday supplements. I don't get the same buzz out of amps, but obviously other people do.
Of course there are people who see guitars purely as tools, and I wish I was one of them. I'd play more and spend less...
In purely practical terms, you can enjoy playing guitar at home but most amps are basically useless if you don't actually play in a band. And they take up a hell of a lot of space. If I owned a 4x12 I could never use it - it'd be a sideboard. I really only "need" one little low-power amp (I don't "need" the 20-odd guitars either, but let's not go there :| ).
Plus (I'll stop rambling in a minute), you can go in a shop and tell within a couple of minutes if you're going to like a guitar or not - feel is every bit as important as sound. To properly evaluate an amp, you need to spend loads of time experimenting, playing it under the conditions you actually plan to use it - which brings me back to my point about soundproof rooms.
Plus you can still sell people their "one" amp...
Agreed - and even stay-at-homes may be prepared to pay very good money for that "one" amp, if it's the right one.
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If it takes off you could get your own brand of gear to sell through the shop.
For example plectra and straps and such; things which are essential to the average non-Robert Fripps of this world.
Maybe consider doing customisations on cabinets eg. Airbrush art, re-grilling and replacing Tolex, or fitting speakers for free if they were to buy them through you.
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from posting around the various forums on the net, the vast majority of (at least casual) guitar players seem to be willing to buy like 20 guitars, but only want one amp. I dunno, it's like the guitars are more glamorous....
You're absolutely right, and I fit into that category. I don't know if guitars are more glamorous exactly, but there's a (kind of) magic ( :roll: )about them that makes them more than just the sum of their parts. That's what hobbies (for want of a better word) are all about. It's exactly the way people feel about antiques, or stamps, or those horrible collectible plates in the Sunday supplements. I don't get the same buzz out of amps, but obviously other people do.
Of course there are people who see guitars purely as tools, and I wish I was one of them. I'd play more and spend less...
In purely practical terms, you can enjoy playing guitar at home but most amps are basically useless if you don't actually play in a band. And they take up a hell of a lot of space. If I owned a 4x12 I could never use it - it'd be a sideboard. I really only "need" one little low-power amp (I don't "need" the 20-odd guitars either, but let's not go there :| ).
Plus (I'll stop rambling in a minute), you can go in a shop and tell within a couple of minutes if you're going to like a guitar or not - feel is every bit as important as sound. To properly evaluate an amp, you need to spend loads of time experimenting, playing it under the conditions you actually plan to use it - which brings me back to my point about soundproof rooms.
Plus you can still sell people their "one" amp...
Agreed - and even stay-at-homes may be prepared to pay very good money for that "one" amp, if it's the right one.
exactly (sorry it took me a while to reply, i was in edinburgh!)!
:drink:
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I haven't read all 5 pages of posts, and a lot of things depend on location and local demand, but hears my opinions anyway
a majority of your customers are probably going to be beginners, so obviously they are who you aim at them first, so I'd get in some starter all in one packs (probably ones that'll sell from the brand name ie Fender, Marshall, etc) and also some cheap BC rich guitars and maybe some Jackson Vs for the posers
as for pro gear, if you can't complete on price with the internet you'll need a really good sales pitch to give someone a reason why to buy from you, you don't want bar-stewards like me who go in shops, try stuff, then buy online for the cheapest price possible (when I save myself £100 on a Jackson RR3 I'm not that bothered about random bloke who works in a shop)
if you can compete and you have the demand I'd get an ENGL fireball half stack setup ;) (ENGL don't have brand awareness of Marshall and Peavey though, so maybe 5150/6505 instead)
it is bloody hard to find shops that sell Jazz III picks and none Earnie Ball string though, but I wouldn't know how much demand there was for these things besides me obviously
oh and I've never found a 7 stringer in a shop to try out, if you get the Ibanez 8 string Meshuggah guitar that might generate a lot of interest for you
only other thing I can think of right now is if it was my shop I'd have some Marshall MGs for the tone deaf beginners who buy by brand next to some good cheap solidstate amps (Roland Cubes maybe, I got told they sound good but don't quote me on that)
have a nice display in the window and fancy signs to woo people into your shop, weasel word the cr@p out of the signs too ie "fantastic new items and prices" etc, and have some brand name stickers in the window too
basically anything that gets people into your shop is a good thing, especially if you can build up rapport with them so they favour you over your competition
oh ye, have a board so people can advertise gigs or find bands members, etc
ok I think that's everything, sorry if it's a bit messy, I kept thinking of new things as I wrote it
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ooo, a small thought [that's all my mind can produce outside of the maths/computer region] ... get in a couple of those epi valve juniors... i've not yet been to a shop where they sell them, only seen them on the internet, and it's small enough that they can crank it a bit more than usual in a shop without killing small children in the region :D
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the coffee shop thing is the best idea there. The kids would flock there and spend there some of the hard end money they got from mugging the old woman.
On a serious note. It is the best. I would love a place to sit, chill out and speak to other guitarists/musicians. If people didnt get into the whole guitar idea you could easily change it to a stand alone coffee shop nae bather
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I'm a partner in a music shop. Some quick thoughts I have after scanning the 5 pages...
Location, location, location - high street with good frontage essential.
You'll have many, many more customers starting guitar than looking for a pro instrument.
Coffee shops are hard work to be very profitable afaik. How much profit is there in a £1.50 cappucino? Would the space taken up by the table that one person is sitting at sipping their coffee at be better filled with product to sell? I'd want solid market research to see if the coffee shop market in the location was saturated and that it would increase sales in the music shop. Plus you'll need at least one member of staff is you're doing coffees.
You'll have trouble matching Thomann, but you can compete with GAK & Coda if you choose your battles and buy well. People won't mind paying a small premium for convenience and your great customer service.
Second-hand may not be quite dead but it sure smells funny.
JMHO
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I think the coffee idea is pretty cool. In someways I would love to go to a place like that. If you had clinic etc, like people have said, I think you would be on to a winning formula.
I think the thing to think about coffee shop, is people love coffee, and it is why you have a Starbucks at every corner. If you had good coffee, people would go in, and more then likely get a pack of strings or other tidbits when they go in. More people would go in, if it was known as a guitar hang out. I think having a venue would work as well, but the problem with a venue is, that alcohol is the main money maker there. But I suppose you could *raffle* off bottled beer. Always a winner.
Good luck with what you are going to do!
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the coffee shop thing is the best idea there. The kids would flock there and spend there some of the hard end money they got from mugging the old woman.
On a serious note. It is the best. I would love a place to sit, chill out and speak to other guitarists/musicians. If people didnt get into the whole guitar idea you could easily change it to a stand alone coffee shop nae bather
Problem is, tons of people would like a place to hang out and talk guitars, but how many of them would actually spend money?
I work in a music shop and the VAST majority of people who treat it as a hang out, many of whom are our friends or are at least punters who have shopped with us for years and years, decades in some cases, buy their larger purchases online and shop with us for strings etc.
I have to say that while a guitar shop cum coffee house would probably be pretty busy fairly often, have great rapport with punters, be a place people WANTED to go hang out and shop, I don't think it'd make a great deal of money.
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the coffee shop thing is the best idea there. The kids would flock there and spend there some of the hard end money they got from mugging the old woman.
On a serious note. It is the best. I would love a place to sit, chill out and speak to other guitarists/musicians. If people didnt get into the whole guitar idea you could easily change it to a stand alone coffee shop nae bather
Problem is, tons of people would like a place to hang out and talk guitars, but how many of them would actually spend money?
I work in a music shop and the VAST majority of people who treat it as a hang out, many of whom are our friends or are at least punters who have shopped with us for years and years, decades in some cases, buy their larger purchases online and shop with us for strings etc.
I have to say that while a guitar shop cum coffee house would probably be pretty busy fairly often, have great rapport with punters, be a place people WANTED to go hang out and shop, I don't think it'd make a great deal of money.
Possibly - But remember.
Step 1 - Get the punters.
Step 2 - Make the sale.
Once you have a cafe full of people - You'll be in a much better position, shops are desperate to get people into their store - Irrelevent of whether they buy anything.
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the coffee shop thing is the best idea there. The kids would flock there and spend there some of the hard end money they got from mugging the old woman.
On a serious note. It is the best. I would love a place to sit, chill out and speak to other guitarists/musicians. If people didnt get into the whole guitar idea you could easily change it to a stand alone coffee shop nae bather
Problem is, tons of people would like a place to hang out and talk guitars, but how many of them would actually spend money?
I work in a music shop and the VAST majority of people who treat it as a hang out, many of whom are our friends or are at least punters who have shopped with us for years and years, decades in some cases, buy their larger purchases online and shop with us for strings etc.
I have to say that while a guitar shop cum coffee house would probably be pretty busy fairly often, have great rapport with punters, be a place people WANTED to go hang out and shop, I don't think it'd make a great deal of money.
Possibly - But remember.
Step 1 - Get the punters.
Step 2 - Make the sale.
Once you have a cafe full of people - You'll be in a much better position, shops are desperate to get people into their store - Irrelevent of whether they buy anything.
Except that you now have a cafe full of people distracting you from being able to spend any time at all with the one or two who MIGHT be looking for anything.
The days of going into you're local shop, having a cup of tea, a biscuit, having a chat and getting to spend all day pissing about with gear seem to be sadly long gone, in my experience, 'cause few punters want that kind of service any more. It's a hell of a shame, but I reckon it's why so many smaller music stores are closing, not because they can't compete with the online stores and big chains, but because the majority of punters don't even want them too.
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This has probably been said before but it might be a good idea to do rentals on electronics like amps and pedals (not guitars as some customers would take advantage of the situation).
They pay a deposit which they are reimbursed for at the safe return of the gear.
They get the gear for a week or so so that they can get a proper feel for how the gear would work for them.
Of course to run this sensibly their would need to be a charge on top of the deposit to make it profitable.
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I don't wanna put you off but my local dawson's shutdown a few months ago, and that was the main guitar shop round here
all that's left is the rubbish in cash converters and a small out the way shop that is a mess and sells never heard of brands (has a 2nd hand hot rodded jcm800 that needs new tubes though, oh so tempting!!!)
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I haven't read the 5 pages I'm affraid, but I'll throw in my 2p.
My local music shop (mostly guitar gear) has been there for 20 years or so. I know the owner is part of a buying consortium and that allows him to compete with online prices and price match other stores. The shop is located a few yards off the main high street.
The appearance of the shop is quite cluttered but I like that, and it means I have to move round the whole shop to see what he's got, rather than be able to scan everything from the door. I've been in other shops (sound control) that have loads more space and look really nice, and yet somehow I'd rather spend my money in my local shop.
Also a neat little trick he uses is to slightly inflate his ticket price, then he can always knock some off without hurting his profit, this means the customer ends up paying the same price, but feels better because he's got a discount. It also give the dealer a better bargaining position if the customer suddenly says he wants to part exchange.
I don't think there is a winning formula, luck plays a big part at the start of such an enterprise, once you have a good rep it can be enough to see you through.
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Thanks for all the recent replies guys - I'm still watching the thread and deciding what to do.
Cheers! :drink:
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First off, I live in the US so I don't really know what you guys havei n guitar stores in the UK, I guess the inventory is different because someone (i cant find it now) in this thread said they cant find stores that sell Jazz III picks or Ernie Ball strings, and in the US its hard NOT to find them
anyways, here goes
1. Stock brands that you cant really get anywhere else, i.e. there is 1 retailer for Caparison in the US, and I desperately want to try one, but I cant. Same thing with ENGL. Most of the stores here stock like Crate, Fender, Marshall, Line6, Vox, and thats it. I think you would make some real money if you were the only retailer of brands like Tagima and LAG around. My favorite guitars tore of the area doesnt exactly stock uncommon brands, but they do stock higher end guitars, and they stock a lot of amps you cant get elsewhere (Laneys, Peaveys, Mesas, and a lot of other brands)
2. Stock beginner stuff, and high end stuff, forget the middle of the line. Here there are only really 2 big guitar chains, Guitar Center, and Sam Ash. 90% of guitar centers guitars cost 500 dollars and it really pisses me off. I think it would be nice to go to a guitar store that stocks real ESPs (not LTDs), USA Select series Jacksons like the sl1 soloists,
3. Make sure the guitars are set up good. I went into a guitar shop once, and one of the sales managers handed me this RG Prestige 2550, I wasnt even looking to buy a guitar, but it felt so nice and has such a good setup that I bought it on the spot. (it was used by the way)
4. One thing I hate is when I go into a guitar store and the staff is really pushy. Most stores here you walk in and like 3 guys follow you around asking you what you are looking to buy, it gets irritating.
But I don't know anything about business :P those are just a few things that would keep me going back to the same store
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4. One thing I hate is when I go into a guitar store and the staff is really pushy. Most stores here you walk in and like 3 guys follow you around asking you what you are looking to buy, it gets irritating.
I went into Sound Control in Birmingham wearing my suit the other week (looking prety pucka :lol: ) and I've never been asked so many times if I wanted any help. They certainly weren't pushy, but it must have looked like I had money........if only they'd seen the car I pulled up in :lol: :lol:
I know you're far from getting the shop, but please make sure there's somewhere nearby to park cheep. Cost me £1.50 to park outside of Sound Control for less than an hour :evil:
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My friend asked a guy in the local music shop how much it was for a Gibson SG standard and the bar-steward replied with "Too much for you!!" and walked off laughing. Don't be like that!!
I like the idea of stocking amps that no where else has but surely there is a reason why loads of shops stock Marshall etc.
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I'm not sure I made it clear in my post that Sound Control looked really nice and impressive, but looked more like a showroom or museum than a guitar shop, it kinda said 'come in and look around' but it didn't say 'buy stuff'. Where as I have difficulty leaving my local shop without buying something!
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all three aren't bad ideas, but you might need a business plan first.