Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: Steve Kinsen on August 24, 2007, 02:35:32 PM
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Now, I've pretty much worked out all the details of my Bare Knuckle purchase (and, like most guitarists, the details of the next £5000 worth of equipment that I'll still be buying in ten years...). I still, however, have one choice to make: should I buy my Mules potted or unpotted?
The problem is I really don't know enough to make the decision. What is the purpose of potting? I understand it eliminates microphonics, but in what situations are microphonics noticable and how much of a problem are they? I've heard that potting is more necessary for covered pickups (presumably because of the interaction of the metal covers with the magnets) but I don't know any details.
So can people give me the pros and cons of potting a set versus leaving them unpotted? Bear in mind that I'll be using these pickups for everything from jazz to metal, and I've heard the high levels of gain associated with the latter mean potting is virtually a necessity.
Help me, tonefreaks! You're my only hope!
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I'm not a Jedi but I'll try my best.
If you'd said you play "Jazz to blues" I'd say unpotted, but if you're going to play metal I'd go for potted just to be extra sure against feedback.
BKPs are open enough sounding even when potted for all your Jazz needs.
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I've read criticisms on other boards about other pickups, stating that the potting nullifies many of the harmonics that add to the warmth of tone, and that potted pickups lose that openness and depth that most people look for in a great guitar tone.
Is it your belief, then, that Bare Knuckle pickups are high enough quality and strong enough in design that these shouldn't be problems? I'd be very happy if this were the case, as it'd be a shame to have to get one set of unpotted pickups to get the optimal clean and crunch tones and one set of potted pickups for hard rock to metal tones.
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I have one potted Mule in the bridge of a Les Paul, and a set of unpotted in another. All three pickups are open coiled zebras.
To my ears, the potted pickup is a touch smoother. The unpotted is a bit brighter and more "lively". For more open vintage tones, unpotted is the way to go in my opinion. However, once you add a lot of gain they can start to sound shrill.
The best all round option for you is to go potted. You won't be disappointed.
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Thanks for the advice, guys! One more question (and slightly off topic, whoops!).
My main reason for upgrading is that I find the stock burstbuckers (burstbucker pros, I think) in my Les Paul have no 'presence' in a mix: they simply don't cut through very well. This is particularly easy to notice when compared with, well, any other guitar: I've experienced it when playing with players using high output humbucking Ibanezes, but also when playing with guys who use vintage output Stratocasters.
My initial thought was simply that the Gibson pups just weren't of high enough quality and didn't have the required punch, and that upgrading to Bare Knuckles would sort me out. After reading the forum for half an hour I'm not so certain. Do you think that simply upgrading to a set of Mules would do the job, or is it more likely to be a case of 300k pots sapping the top end presence from my tone? Is my Les Paul likely to have a particularly dark timbre that upgrading to Mules would do very little about?
Choices! Far too many choices!
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I have BKPs in guitars that are certainly not high quality timber and they have really improved the tone tenfold, you could put BKPs on a drainpipe and it would sound musical. However in an LP I would definately consider upgrading to good quality 500k pots and good caps to really get the best out of your instrument. If it's within your budget checkout RS Guitarworks wiring kits.
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Thanks gingataff, although I asked so many questions in the last post that the important one ended up getting lost in the process!
Simply put, will buying a set of calibrated alnico IV Mules give my Les Paul a significant increase in 'presence' in a live mix compared to a set of Gibson Burstbucker Pros?
Edit: Looking at RS Guitarworks, would I want the Vintage or Modern electronics kits for my Les Paul? I really do wish there wasn't this much choice!
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Thanks gingataff, although I asked so many questions in the last post that the important one ended up getting lost in the process!
Simply put, will buying a set of calibrated alnico IV Mules give my Les Paul a significant increase in 'presence' in a live mix compared to a set of Gibson Burstbucker Pros?
Edit: Looking at RS Guitarworks, would I want the Vintage or Modern electronics kits for my Les Paul? I really do wish there wasn't this much choice!
Yes, the mules will really cut through the mix. Changed the original Burst Buckers from my LP std and put in a set of Mules.Tone was immense and made the band sound bigger. They have a more focused tone which helps the guitar stand out in the mix.
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This may help, its a recording of a small pub gig we did when i had the mules in my LP. The visual is rubbish but the audio is good enough to hear the live tone of the Mules. it was recorded on a digital camera by someone in the crowd.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3Iwpg9-jWw
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There's plenty of presence in all BKP's. Even the darker sounding ones. Changing from burstbuckers to Mules would be like taking a wool blanket off your amp.
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i would be tempted to for a potted bridge pickup that will be good for the metal. and maybe an unpotted neck pickup for the best jazz tones - that way you have both ends of your playing spectrum nicely covered and anything in between should be easy to get as well
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Don't forget: Tim has found a way to make his unpotted pickups more feedback resistant. It's somekind of special wind.
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Sorry to keep repeating myself but I'd like to pick up these pick-ups (pun, unfortunately, intended) as soon as possible and so I'm posting with some urgency.
1) Does anybody know if a 2005 Les Paul Standard Limited Edition would have been shipped with 300k or 500k pots? From my guitars tone it sounds like I have all the symptoms of a guitar with 300k pots, but it'd be nice to know for sure before dropping fifty quid on a new set of electronics!
2) I'm going for a tone with all the classic Les Paul tonal characteristics, but I do love that modern production and equipment brings to tone. With this in mind, would it be better to go for the RS Guitarworks 'modern' electronics pack or the 'vintage' electronics pack? I don't know if the modern set would simply give my vintage-voiced pickups the best possible treatment en-route to the amplifier, or if they'd change the tone at a base level and stop my pickups sounding vintage at all.
Oh, and Steve: $%&#ing fantastic live tone! Just can't beat an old Marshall driven by a good Les Paul, can you? If I'm not mistake you're using a pedal to push the amp a little harder: what pedal was it, exactly? I'm currently the owner of a Full-Drive Mosfet, but I'm starting to think a Keeley modded SD-1 would probably be more to my taste...
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I'm about 90% sure it has 500k pots.
To answer question 2, it might be nice to know what kind of amp/fx you use. In most cases I found it easier to get a modern sound out of vintage style stuff than using modern style stuff and trying to get a vintage sound.
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I'm about 90% sure it has 500k pots.
To answer question 2, it might be nice to know what kind of amp/fx you use. In most cases I found it easier to get a modern sound out of vintage style stuff than using modern style stuff and trying to get a vintage sound.
I use very little in the way of FX, just a Full-Drive Mosfet (that at some point I may switch for a Keeley SD-1) and a GE7 that I plan to have sniped soon. I'm not really a fan of FX, rather I like to get the best core tone possible.
In terms of amp I'm currently using a late 80s/early 90s Peavey valve combo (a PAG60, not that that means anything to anyone). I didn't choose this based on the tone, but rather because of the price I could get it at. I'm looking to upgrade to a Matamp Kings Street soon, and even if I choose another it will certainly be a moderate gain, classic 'British' sounding amplifier.
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Hi,
talk to Tim,
he has the answers and the parts. Your guitar will have 500K Pots but upgrading to CTS and some decent paper in oil caps with your Mules will optimize the difference. Maybe ask Tim for a little extra offset to help cut through the mix if your guitar is normally dark sounding.
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I think Gibson are using 300k at the moment for some weird reason...
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I'm about 90% sure it has 500k pots.
may i interject and say that gibson's electronics are in the dumps these days. The label on the pots will say 500k, but gibson pots apparently have a +200k variance... so it could be anywhere from 300 to 700. The only way to find out is to manually check their impedance, and replace the duds.
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its a recording of a small pub gig we did when i had the mules in my LP
Very nice livesound ,Steve! 8) About "potted" and "unpotted",vintage PAF's are always unpotted.You can hear the difference,the unpotted is more "on the edge"(at least in my LP),more "lively".It can be a problem with high gain (feedback etc.) though.But if your LP is very dark sounding,unpotted could help to really "cut through the mix"...But keep in mind what Twinfan said:To my ears, the potted pickup is a touch smoother. The unpotted is a bit brighter and more "lively". For more open vintage tones, unpotted is the way to go in my opinion. However, once you add a lot of gain they can start to sound shrill.
.I agree... :wink:
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I would NEVER EVER even think about not having a pickup potted.
I had some unpotted pickups in a Les P aul and they were unusuable, the whistling was at least twice the volume of the guitar if not more EVEN at bedroom level. Impossible to use.
I have now got BK potted and there is no problem.
I also took out some really nice single coils because when playing out they were feeding back VERY loudly, I changed them for others which were potted and there was no problem.
Unpotted together with heavy metal would be a bad mixture I would say.
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I would NEVER EVER even think about not having a pickup potted.
It depends what music you play, how close to your amp you stand and who made the pickups ;)
I played my unpotted P90s through a roaring 100w 1/4 stack last night. No problems.
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Steve,
I know you probably already have bought your mules.
Still id like to add that i have '57 Gibson classic/classic plus pafs in my Custom LP. They are potted and covered. If playing metal they sound exceptionally dirty and mean (midheavy) expect alot of squiling at settings over a moderate gain level. Thats also the reason why they started potting pups anyway, tot prevent that you end up holding a pig :oops: at higher gain levels.
Unpotted and uncovered mules for general use? Nah not the right way to go imho. Personally i think its a shame you dont have the older Gibson 490R in your neck position, pulling the cover of that one gives you a wonderfull jazz pup imho.
And by the way, PAF's always have those sweet swelling harmonics, potting or covering might make a pu sound a little less clear but certainly wil not affect harmonics.
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Wow everybody seems to freak out when the word 'unpotted' comes out.
Well, i had a set of unpotted mules in a LP and now i have a potted set in another one.
I think that what Twinfan said about potted and unpotted pups is a pretty good description. That's for the sound.
Now, for the feedback : i can assure you that i never had a problem even with strongs rectifier-like distortions.
Sure, the treshold exist (as with any pup) but it didn't seem it'll be reached a lot faster than potted pups to me...
I may be wrong but from my experience :
Unpotted gibson burstbuckers do feedback (so do other brands) while unpotted BKP don't.
I wonder myself how is this possible but Tim seems to be the Lvl 92 Pickup Winder kind of player.
If i were you (and if you haven't bought them yet), i'll decide the (un)potted option on a sounding caracter point of view,
and for the wide range of styles you're aiming for, i'd say potted Mules.
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Just thought I'd let you guys know how my unpotted (although covered!) Mules were sounding. I've given them a good play in now, in a gig situation: a 60W valve amp turned up fairly high with a hell of a boost up front. The result?
$%&#ing fantastic.
I've had no problems with feedback except when I set my amplifier's preamp gain to '$%&#-off' and boost my guitar's level to buggery and back with an overdrive pedal. Amazingly quiet, and the tone is absolutely to die for: they're so responsive I genuinely feel they make me a better player! Lots of positive comments from the audience: even in one of the worst acoustic spaces on the planet, the guitar just sounds brilliant.
I can't imagine the pickups'd respond well to a Dual Rectifier, but who in their right mind plays through a Dual Rectifier anyway? :wink: