Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Tech => Topic started by: blue on September 14, 2007, 10:35:26 PM
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so, i got a new (old) guitar recently, a 70's Les Paul. it was very much in need of a re-fret, so i asked around about who was the best guy, took it to him, and today it arrived home, with me £90 lighter. problem; all the frets look a little low, but the upper frets in particular have been filed so low that if i bend or use vibrato my fingers are rubbing on the wood of the fretboard.
clearly this is not good, and not what i wanted. i'm guessing it also needed a new nut? so, when i go back to him, should i look for the job redone for free, or look for a compromise, or write it off as a bad experience and get it done somewhere else?
also, he says that the previous frets were glued in, and as a result he couldn't avoid pulling out some bits of wood from the board, which have been rather ham-fistedly repaired. does this sound right, or is he covering up his own mistake? i was prepared to believe him until i saw the filed-to-nothing frets!
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If he's filed the fret too low then it needs redone, plain and simple. Have the frets been drastically reprofiled from the undressed shape?
:twisted:
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I'm by no means the best person to answer this- Jonathon and Wes are far more knowledgeable on the subject, but i'll share my thoughts nonetheless :)
You say the guitar was very much in need of a refret- did the tech discuss fret sizing with you, or did he say he'd install the same size fretwire? He might have used smaller fretwire instead of a larger variant more suited to a Les Paul. Frets can be glued in, and it wouldn't be uncommon that damage occured during the removal- it can happen with non-glued frets, but if it's very severe the tech has done a bad job.
Did the guy just replace the nut off the bat, or has he not cut the nut slots deeper to match the new lowered fret height? The latter i would have expected to be done automatically as part of the refret.
If you could provide a picture or two of the fret heights and damage, we might be able to assess the situation a little more accurately. Personally if the frets were going to be a vastly different height, and there was a possibility of damage, i'd have expected the tech to mention it.
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so, i got a new (old) guitar recently, a 70's Les Paul. it was very much in need of a re-fret, so i asked around about who was the best guy, took it to him, and today it arrived home, with me £90 lighter. problem; all the frets look a little low, but the upper frets in particular have been filed so low that if i bend or use vibrato my fingers are rubbing on the wood of the fretboard.]
To me it sounds like the fingerboard was in need of levelling - not unusual on a guitar of any age let alone 30 years old
If it was just a fret dress that was being done, then I can understand that the frets would maybe need drastic levelling to rectify uneveness in the fingerboard
If the guitar has been refretted then surely he would have had an opportunity to level the fingerboard and thereby not have to do so much levelling of the frets as they would be going into a nice level board
That is what we do, but we do charge more for such a job as it is very time consuming - also London prices!
Bound neck refret £150 (unbound £130)
Level fingerboard £20
New nut £20-30 (+£25 Earvana if done during refret)
clearly this is not good, and not what i wanted. i'm guessing it also needed a new nut? so, when i go back to him, should i look for the job redone for free, or look for a compromise, or write it off as a bad experience and get it done somewhere else?
Tough one to call - might be worth talking to him as you would not expect frets to be all worn out after a refret.
Ask if he levelled the fingerboard and about what problems he ran into.
If he is well known and well used locally he wont want a bad job to be out there or an unhappy customer
But if there is a lot more work required than he had originally quoted you for because of the uneven fingerboard, be man enough to offer to pay him for the additional work required to level the board (£20-30) if he is willing to redo the job for you as it will be time consuming to put it all right and that gesture will be an act of good faith.
also, he says that the previous frets were glued in, and as a result he couldn't avoid pulling out some bits of wood from the board, which have been rather ham-fistedly repaired. does this sound right, or is he covering up his own mistake? i was prepared to believe him until i saw the filed-to-nothing frets!
I usually heat the frets carefully with a soldering iron to break any glue joint first , but care must be taken when doing this .
I always assume frets are glued in & try heating them, so as not to be surprised when they are glued.
However some woods can be really prone to chipping when removing frets, and even very skilled techs have trouble with them.
Hope this helps
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thanks for the answers guys, i think Jonathon's level headed approach sounds about right, i'll give him a ring tomorrow and see what we can sort out.
he didn't actually replace the nut. i don't know if it's the original nut, but it's definately old. i'm thinking the slots are pretty low in it and he dressed away the frets to match it, although Jonathon could be right about the uneven fretboard too. we'll see what the craic is when i talk to him tomorrow.
thanks again, and i'll let you know how it all turns out.
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I usually heat the frets carefully with a soldering iron to break any glue joint first
Mines a soldering gun with the nib split in two so the fret actually completes the circuit and warms quicker.
The heat really does help a hell of a lot, even if they are epoxied in place they will release quite easily but wood is wood and occasionally you will get a bitch of a fretboard that chips out really easily. The point is that you allow for this when removing the frets, i personally have masking tape either side of the fret if i think its going to be a difficult board - this will hold any chips in place and i can run a little superglue in to hold them in place - once the board is levelled you would never know!!
OK, sometimes chips go missing - its still easy to make am almost invisible repair....as long as its not a maple bloody fretboard.
As far as frets getting lower at the end of the neck, i have heard this technique suggested to help prevent fretting out at the top of the neck... it does make sense on set-neck guitars to have a little drop away but it should be an inperceivable difference.
It is hard for us to judge without seeing it though. £90 is cheap for a bound neck refret. If the chips have been repaired so they board is smooth, the frets are level, play without buzz, and all have a suitable crown on them then you got a good refret for the price you payed - what may be bothering you is the difference from how it was before and that is always an issue when having a guitar refretted.
If the guys seems resonable when you talk to him then see if you can reach a compromise, its also worth talking about exactly what you want from the refret and how he will achieve that because we all do it slightly differently and he may have a lot of customers that have liked the fretboard drop off so they can get lower buzz free actions
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the frets aren't actually any lower at the top than near the nut, it's just more noticeable because i do more bending and vibrato up there. also, the frets on the treble side have been dressed so low that there's barely a crown on them! when i bend, the string is rubbing against the board. it is actually better than it was, as the old frets were virtually gone, but i don't feel it's good enough. i haven't been able to get him on the phone yet, but i'm hoping when i do this can be resolved amicably, i'm not looking to fall out with anyone.
aahhhh, why do these things always seem to go wrong!?!
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As far as frets getting lower at the end of the neck, i have heard this technique suggested to help prevent fretting out at the top of the neck... it does make sense on set-neck guitars to have a little drop away but it should be an inperceivable difference.
Yes - but that "fall away" at the high end can be levelled into the wood to allow you to keep full fret height - or as close as possible.
the frets aren't actually any lower at the top than near the nut, it's just more noticeable because i do more bending and vibrato up there. also, the frets on the treble side have been dressed so low that there's barely a crown on them! when i bend, the string is rubbing against the board. it is actually better than it was, as the old frets were virtually gone, but i don't feel it's good enough.
Did you discuss which wire he was gonna use?
Did you go for a tall one or just one that was similar to the old one?
A tall one would probably need a new nut- as the old nut would be cut too low
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well, i just spoke to him. he says he doesn't know what i'm talking about, there's nothing wrong with the nut. what do i mean the frets are too low, he doesn't understand. i said i felt it needed done again, he said if i'm not happy i should get someone else to sort it out and hung up on me. i'm finding it hard to type here because my hands are shaking with anger! this guy was recommended to me by several people, but you can be damn sure he won't be getting any recommendations from me.
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you wouldn't mind pm-ing me with who did the fret job? i got a fret job done a while back by a guy over here, and he did a pretty good job. if you used a different guy, this guy might be able to sort things out.
Though of course, that'll be no consolation for the (as it sounds) botched repair job.
:drink:
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he said if i'm not happy i should get someone else to sort it out and hung up on me.
That would be the point where I'd be driving to his place to break the guitar over his f'in head. Go round there and muscle the guy, he's shown himself to be unreasonable so you have to resort to caveman tactics. If you're not a physical type of guy, take someone who is.
I had a similar situation with a shop who sold my amp then kept me hanging on for the money because they'd taken a p/ex against it. F*uck you, pay me was my response and told them if my cash wasn't there when I came down there would be trouble. I took a few brutish mates along with me for visual effect and what do you know, the cash was forthcoming. You don't necessarily have to 'do' anything, you just have to manipulate the situation so that the other guy thinks you will.
:twisted:
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if possible take some nice clear photos of the bits you are not happy with, particularly the chipped areas and the lower frets - with a ruler or vernier in place if you can.
if you can actually quantify the issues it might be worth checking with citizens advice and trading standards to see if you have any leg to stand on... at this point it might just help to get your money back if it shows the fella that you are serious.
you obviously dont want the guy touching the guitar again so a partial refund is about the most you can expect.
His previous reputation probably comes from the fact he does alright work pretty cheap - that seems to make a lot of people happier than good work that costs more.
As far as frets getting lower at the end of the neck, i have heard this technique suggested to help prevent fretting out at the top of the neck... it does make sense on set-neck guitars to have a little drop away but it should be an inperceivable difference.
Yes - but that "fall away" at the high end can be levelled into the wood to allow you to keep full fret height - or as close as possible.
definately the best way, but it doesnt sound like this guy put much effort into the fretboard before refretting - especially with the chip issues... i suspected he might mention this to try and justify the lower frets at that end of the neck so thought blue should be fully aware of that issue before speaking to him. Its not something i do on most guitars, although it has come in handy before when doing cheap and cheerfull setups/fretdressing for mates - i much prefer to get it all as level as possible though
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well, the guitar is now with another guy, who i was going to go to in the first place, but the one that did the job was 25 miles closer. anyway, hoping i won't get burned again! he showed me some of his work, including one of his own builds, and we went through different fret wires to pick the one i wanted. he couldn't believe the job the other guy had done, said it was a total hack job. so it's getting it's second re-fret in a week! he's gonna pull the frets, skim the board and put in the new nut and frets.
i've never had to get any serious work done before, one fret dress a couple of years ago. all other minor set-up and wiring work i've worked out how to do myself. i felt that recommendations and the pride someone should take in their work meant i would be safe enough with the man i entrusted with my guitar, just goes to show i'm too trusting.
i'm not quite sure yet what i'm going to do about the first guy, i would certainly like my money back, but i fear it's a lost cause. from what i'm told any heavy handed tactics would be detrimental to my own health! and it doesn't look like he has any intention of being reasonable.
anyway, very long post there. should have the guitar back by Thursday and then i hope to be able to put this whole sorry mess behind me. and to post some pictures of my '75 (same age as me you see) Les Paul!
(stay optimistic, stay optimistic, stay optimistic)
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Its always nice when you can see someones work before hand
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yeah, the new guy blue has dropped his guitar into did a fret dress/crown for me a few years ago and did a very good job, at a good price. So hopefully he can get the guitar back to the way it should be...
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Does he share a name with a Cartoon Character, perchance?
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nope, the new guy (i.e. the good guy, not the cowboy) shares a name with said cartoon character. I know it's a good job it only clicked with me after I'd been to him, or I wouldn't have been able to keep a straight face... :oops: :lol:
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Aye, dropping my tele with him in the near future. He does fantastic work.
Have you ever seen any of the thinline Tele's he's made himself?
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he showed me a solid tele he's in the process of building. not finished, but already very nice and nicely playable, although it doesn't have any electrics yet. he's planning on trying a set of p90's in it.
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ooookay, update! and i am not a happy camper!
repairman 2 phoned me today, and i could tell by the tone of his voice it wasn't good news. he'd almost finished removing the frets that the first guy had installed, and couldn't quite believe what he'd found. the first guy, who had complained to me that an earlier re-fret had involved glue, had super-glued the frets in. he'd also used super-glue and some kind of rubbery putty to fill the damage he'd done to the fret-board.
he wants me to come down and see the state it's in before he continues. the amount he'd have to skim to be able to re-fret it would mean he'd have to redo the inlays and, while he'd much prefer to keep the original wood, he feels that it may be necessary to go for a complete new fret-board.
basically, the 1st moron i entrusted my guitar with has completely destroyed it! i'm trying to find a bright side here, but i'm struggling!
in case anyone misinterprets. i'm not describing the new repairman as an idiot. the first guy has done major damage and i'm hoping with all my vital organs that this man can make it right. so much for my bargain old Les Paul :(
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first things first, superglue is quite common in repairs and fret work and not in itself a bad thing- thats exactly what the first repair man will tell you and it is true
Here are a few links to show you that its usable - this is from frank ford, the complete opposite of hack in every way:
http://frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Frets/FretTrouble/CAFret/cafret.html
http://frets.com/FRETSPages/Luthier/Technique/Frets/FBoardDivot/fboardivot.html
I just wanted to clear this up because i would often recommend superglue (CA glue) and i dont want to be accused of being a hack! Thats without mentioning the other luthiery uses for superglue - its great stuff!
the rubbery putty is a definate no-no, no arguments there. the first guy sounds like a definate hack job and i am not trying to defend him, but superglue is practically my best friend so i will defend the use of that - when used properly!!
The problem i imagine your new tech is having is that too much superglue in fret slots is very hard to remove from a bound neck and if it is used to fill divots/splinters it should be mixed with wood dust
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Is there any point in inviting the original guy to view the current state of the guitar and the comments of the new guy-though I doubt whether he'd be interested judging by your earlier comments. I suppose going to trading standards is not an option either.very frustrating and I hope all turns out well in the end.
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Wez, thanks for the info, i think i do remember you mentioning superglue before. it just struck me as ironic when he himself had complained about the previous use of superglue!
and 38thbeatle, i'm going to try to get something through to him, but from my experience so far i don't think he'll listen! i thought of sending him a bill, and a full explanation of what has happened, in the hope that at least he might feel bad! but maybe i shouldn't waste another second on him, except to try to make sure no one i know ever goes to him again
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yeah, i know its not very helpfull advice for you and i am sorry i cant be more helpfull.
I am not sure what i would do in your situation. A new fretboard involves new binding which involves finish touchups down the neck and that before we get to the inlay and refret - - - not cheap at all!
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yeah, maybe i should've just bought a new guitar!
ah, i'll just have to look at it as a learning experience. maybe it'll end up being the most fabulous Les Paul ever! i could look at this as an opportunity to do something unique! maybe no inlays, or custom inlays, or no binding, or i could go the whole hog and get the guitar re-finished, or howsabout Brazilian rosewood, or ebony, or compressed mars bar wrappers!
i think, this weekend, i will party my little heart out to take my mind off this.
to put it in perspective, check out my tribute to Pepsi Tate in the Dressing Room. it's only a guitar after all.
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Nasty, blue.
I know tech no. 2 isn't the type to give you a line of nonsense to extract money from you, though. If he says it's going to be bother, it almost certainly will.
PS. You couldn't drop me a PM with Tech No. 1's name, just for future reference...You never know when desperation for a repair might kick in, and it might be best to know where not to go...
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Aye, dropping my tele with him in the near future. He does fantastic work.
Have you ever seen any of the thinline Tele's he's made himself?
yep, seen a couple and played one. that was back when i had an irrational dislike of anything narrow than 1 11/16" at the nut, so I probably didn't really get to give it a fair whirl, but it seemed pretty nice apart from that.
and that sucks, blue. I don't know what to say that can make you feel any better, it's horrible to entrust something to someone and have them mess it up.
Nasty, blue.
I know tech no. 2 isn't the type to give you a line of nonsense to extract money from you, though. If he says it's going to be bother, it almost certainly will.
PS. You couldn't drop me a PM with Tech No. 1's name, just for future reference...You never know when desperation for a repair might kick in, and it might be best to know where not to go...
yep, i agree. i went to him thinking i needed a refret, and he told me he could probably get away with a crown, which cost less.
but maybe i shouldn't waste another second on him, except to try to make sure no one i know ever goes to him again
yep, that's what i'd do. hit him where it hurts. you're not liable to get any satisfaction out of him anyway, just a load of bother and increased blood pressure...
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Sorry to hear about the hack job to the guitar.
We share our amp repair workshop with a luthier, and judging from the reaction of many of ours and his customers to quoted prices, there is obvioulsy a sizeable market out there for cheap but not that great repairs. Sadly I've seen the consequences of many of these. It seem like the first guy you took the guitar to catered for this market.
There are loads of guys out there that can do set ups and "straightforward" refrets. A skilled repairer really earns their money when they tackle a difficult job like yours.
Regarding what to do. A 1974 Les Paul is a vintage guitar, and as such will be rising in valve. If your guitar has the original finish and hardware I would try to preserve the orginallity of the guitar. A new fingerboard would seriously devalue it. On the other hand if it has been refinished then I would be less concerned about a new finger board, although some wacky custom inlays would make it hard to sell.
I know everyone says they would never sell there main guitar, but something better always seems to come along......
I might be tempted to give the first "repairer" a visit though.
Best of luck.
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I thought that I should also chip in that there are superglues which use a 'rubber' like material as filler (for those jobs that the gelled CA adhesives are too brittle to handle).
I mention these as they are used in the aviation (and defence) industry, and I once met an alleged luthier (his real job was in the aviation sector) and his work was absolute cr@p (on a level with that 13 string bass person).
He managed to work on the old Lowden factory (for about a day and a half).
I only mention this in passing.
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Get your new tech to clean out the slots - either with a special shortened saw, or as I have often had to do - with a dental burr in a dremel router.
Then choose carefully a fret that will fit the slot snugly
Refretting is an art in some ways
Pix of the tools below
(http://www.stewmac.com/catalog/images_1lg/3602_1lg.jpg)
(http://www.stewmac.com/catalog/images_1lg/1180_1lg.jpg)
I always use superglue on a fret job - have seen too many guitars with frets that seemed tight but had buzzes or dead spots on some frets caused by a fret that was loose enough to vibrate and soak up the strings energy.
Fixed it by letting a little glue seep under the fret to secure it
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alright kids, me again!
went today to see the guitar (it's like visiting a relative in hospital! i ate the grapes myself) the fretboard really is in a pretty sorry state. Jonathon and Wez both talked about heating the frets to soften any glue, obviously tech#1 hadn't heard of this and had just ripped the old ones out. the fret slots are now almost as wide as the fret itself! he had pulled out so much wood he had actually dislodged a couple of the inlays. so, with considerable sadness, it seems that a new fretboard is the best way to go. i realise this means the guitar will be non-original, but it will also be playable, which i consider fairly important! as regards originality; it has, at some point in it's life, been converted for full size humbuckers, and then later the mini humbuckers put back in, complete with little bits of maple to fill the bits that had been routed out.
i've had a miserable week, started with being dumped, has involved two deaths, this guitar thing, and then on my way up there today i got a flat tyre, during the only heavy rain of the evening, on a road an inch deep in muck. i'm actually surprised i survived the journey home! so, at least the guitar thing can be repaired, and may even turn out better than it was.
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That is a shame Blue, the guy who messed up has caused you so much grief, I can't help feeling that he ought to be held accountable but having said that, after the week you have had I guess you need no more hassle. Just don't bother buying lottery tickets as it is just not your week. I am sure things will get better and once you get the guitar back, it'll be brilliant.
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i agree with 38th, it's been a tough week, and sorry to hear it's been so bad. Hopefully next week will be better... :D
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Sounds like a real nightmare! Hope it all works out for you.
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Sorry mate.. Keep your mind on how cool it's gonna be when this is all over... :wink: