Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: wintersun on September 21, 2007, 12:14:26 AM
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Hi guys! I have a question.
I usualy do my recordings with Guitar rig (and with external distortions, so I only use the box simulators), but some people believe that this digital simulation recording is not as good as analog, with real amps. Some say that they can't get that warm sound, some say it's not tight enough, and so on.
I'd like to hear an OBJECTIVE opinion from people who really tried BOTH, not the ones who sympathize one side more than other just because he (or she?? :D) believes that simulated amp can not sound like the real thing.
Maybe its also worth to note that I'm into heavy metal, and I use lots of distortion.
Also you can go here and check my recordings with Guitar rig and tell me is it really that unrealistic:
http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9220
http://www.bareknucklepickups.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=9196
And yes, I also know that the Guitar rig is not the best software there is (Line 6 is probably much better), but thats not the point right now. I just wanna know is real amp really that better for recording, or is the simulated amp recording only underrated.
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I play metal mostly and have tried both and can say from my experience that analog is so much better to my ears. You can't beat a good valve amp distortion imo, you just don't get the same tonal characteristics with digital recording.
I think with cleaner sounds it's much easier to get a good quality tone and i would use either for recording, but when you get into high gain territory it really doesn't sound great to my ears and gets harder to find a usable tone.
I had a Line 6 toneport for Xmas last year and was happy with it for about 5 minutes and then missed my real amp sound and wished i could record with that, so i sold the toneport and bought a mic and i'm much more happier with recording with my proper amp.
Though i have heard some good tones for digital high gain stuff, it is achievable, but the majority of it isn't too good.
Your tone on guitar rig isn't as bad as i expected it to be, the 1st clip sounded more realistic than the 2nd clip. I still wouldn't use it unless it was a last resort, not blasting your clips, they are awesome, it's just my personal preference that i would rather use a proper amp.
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as Joe says, digital can sound fine. modelled amp sounds tend to sound and feel like recordings rather than an actual amp in the room with you. that is, if you use the Van Halen pre-set on a Pod XT, it sounds like the cd, only your fingers are controlling it, whilst if you got to actually play through Eddie's Plexi, standing in front of it with your guitar, it would sound and feel completely different. but if you then listened back to recordings of both performances, it might be hard to tell the difference!
i think for demo recording and quiet practice, digital modelling is pretty hard to beat. you can get a good, usable sound without too much hassle and without annoying the neighbours. plugging your guitar into a little box to make a demo is a lot easier and more convenient than trying to mic up and accurately reproduce a cooking valve amp!
playing with a band is a different matter. at volume the way your guitar interacts with a loud amp is a very organic thing, and there's yet to be a digital box that can recreate that. they can sound good live, and your average audience is never gonna know the difference, but you will!
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Computer Music has an article covering exactly this topic this month, recording the same track using 3 different setups real and digital. I havent listend to it yet, but the guitarists comments were that you could tell the difference in a lot of ways, but once it was all mixed down and played on a normal stereo system they became harder to distinguish and hey were hard pressed to justify the effort of micing up the amps and the cost of the gear they used :)
When I used my J station for recording a few years the sounds were decent and the finished recording stood up well, until i added a 'real' guitar in and then i could really hear the difference - but for demo work and convenience it stood up well. Sticking a mic in front of an amp doesn't necessarily lead to sonic nirvana of coure, it's pretty hard to get a good sound (persoannly I've never managed to get the sound I've wanted, but that's probably just me!). Have a listen to some clips here and how they were recorded.. some guys here can really get good mic'd sounds, others sound a bit thin/woolly etc . and then there are clips through things like the vox tonelab ...listen for youself and see what you hink :)
Have fun trying things out - that's the best bit :)
Kevin
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There is no doubt that the huge leaps forward in recording technology have brought some real advantages. From my experience, however, I prefer the analogue sounds.I think that a crude cross between the two is good.I recorded some stuff a while back in a studio that had digital equipment.We ended up with a great clear accurate recording that sounded pretty good and then recorded onto an old 4 track tape recorder and then produced masters-purely as an exercise. On a blind listen back with none of use knowing which version we'd be hearing, we all picked the "analogue" version-the differences were, to me, hard to put into words but words like "warmer" were being bandied around. By the time it ended up on someones car cd however, the differences were not so marked.Not very scientific.
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Aye, I use a Pod XT, and the sound is amazing. But it will never beat a proper, loud valve amp.
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in my experience, i feel a few digital modelling systems have very clearly captured the "sound" of the mystic valve amp, but not the "feel". I can always tell the difference between a digital model and the real thing whist playing - i think we all can, but as people have said before, once it's all mixed down it's hard to distinguish sometimes. Digital models can get you 99% of the way there, but there is no substitute for the real thing - not because people tell you so, but because if you get out there and try the real gear yu get so much more out of it
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In mix down, especially MP3 its virtually impossible to tell, although digital modellers do have more of a 'Nintendo' quality in higher band .wav format. Live - even the best modeller amp (like the Vetta) cannot compete.
All in all I have been very impressed with the Line 6 and the Vox modellers i've heard.
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Digital modeling & solid state amps miss the midrange crunch, that's what they can't get right.
For recording, I think you've got to factor in that tape compresses and softens things ever so slightly in a way that is very pleasing to the ear. Digital pretty much reproduces what you put in 100%. IMO, what we like about analogue is that colouration you get.
The hardest thing for modeling amps to get right is those crunch tones - they're really good at dead clean or total filth, but nothing inbetween.
What you tend to find is that many professional studios will use both 2" tape AND Protools for recording. Basic tracks will be laid down to tape then transferred to Protools for editing - it's gives you lots of options that way.
:twisted:
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Digital modelling is making some serious headway and line 6 seems to be dominating the market. However, the technology is dominated by Fractal Audio: http://www.fractalaudio.com/
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:D This is a very interesting thread well done !!
The real problem is simply this. If you want to get a killer sound by using a valve amp, you really need to be able to wind the volume up quite a bit in order to make the tone controls on the amp [tubes ] to really work well. Those of us that used Marshalls all those years ago remember that unless you could wind the buggers up there tone valves wouldn`t open up fully making little or slight adjustments useless ! :roll:
Point 2 you will need not only some great recording gear & some bloody good mics but you`ll also need to have some experience in depth to get the best out of the situation. Alternativly just plug in your PodXt & hey presto !
Do you have a room in an area were you can open up your valve amp without driving your neighbours/family memebers insane ?
Can you keep playing your guitar long enough to be able to learn how to record them well enough again without driving other people nuts ?
I read an interview with Dave Mustaine from
Megadeath recently were he admitted that to get the best results when recording his guitar he`d learnt to "back the gain off" so the amp gave a better crunch sound to it. This is experience. you`ll need to do a lot of good research to find these little gems of info inorder to make things easier & quicker for you when recording. There`s loads of experience here on this forum so dont be afraid to ask. Oh & yes it`s fare to say that good mics are much cheaper & valve amps are also much more able to sound better at lower volumes, but you`ll still need to understand how to use them to get the best out of the situation. And for the record over the last 20yrs producers used Palmer units or attenuaters to help get alot of those killer guitar sounds we`ve all been hearing for years including Mettallica, Megadeath etc etc. These units have speaker emulated outputs as well as enabling valve amps to be opend up so making mic`ing easier.
:D 8)
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I prefer tubes as well. After using a Pod for a couple years I thought it was great, until one day I plugged my amp back in and the difference was stunning. However as someone mentioned once it's mixed it can be tough to tell.
I'm looking forward to hearing the new Line6/Bogner amp the Spider Valve. I wonder if it will have that "warmth" people are looking for.
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Thank you all for replying! :D
And jt, could you please explain this a little bit more? What are those Palmer units?
And for the record over the last 20yrs producers used Palmer units or attenuaters to help get alot of those killer guitar sounds we`ve all been hearing for years including Mettallica, Megadeath etc etc. These units have speaker emulated outputs as well as enabling valve amps to be opend up so making mic`ing easier.
:D 8)
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And yes, what about T.C. electronic g-force??
http://www.tcelectronic.com/G-Force
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:D Attenuaters are basically a unit that sits between your amp & speakers. You plug a lead from the speaker out at the back of your amp into the attenuater. You then plug a lead from the attenuater to your speaker. This enables you to turn up the volume on your amp but the attenuater has a volume control which means you can reduce the volume level into the speaker but your able to open up the amp to full volume. Good ones also have speaker emulated outputs that enable you to plug a lead from the attenuater into a mixing desk for live or recording studio & record the sound of your amp straight onto disc/tape. Thats the best way i can describe them in laymans terms.
:D 8)
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:D Attenuaters are basically a unit that sits between your amp & speakers. You plug a lead from the speaker out at the back of your amp into the attenuater. You then plug a lead from the attenuater to your speaker. This enables you to turn up the volume on your amp but the attenuater has a volume control which means you can reduce the volume level into the speaker but your able to open up the amp to full volume. Good ones also have speaker emulated outputs that enable you to plug a lead from the attenuater into a mixing desk for live or recording studio & record the sound of your amp straight onto disc/tape. Thats the best way i can describe them in laymans terms.
:D 8)
Ahaaaa, I get it! Thanks bud! Gotta get me one of these ahahahaha :) Are they expensive?
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:D 1st heres the Marshall
http://www.guitarampkeyboard.com/options.php?id=287
2nd THD Hot Plate
http://www.guitarampkeyboard.com/options.php?id=66713
:D 8)
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Weber and Dr. Z also make them
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Thanks! I'll look into it, ahaha
And BTW, I'd really like to know if anyone ever used TC electronic g-force I mentioned earlier... It really got my attention after hearing several clips!
http://www.tcelectronic.com/G-Force
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Though i have heard some good tones for digital high gain stuff, it is achievable, but the majority of it isn't too good.
Those "some good tones" you heard were most likely artificial to a great extent. It is amazing what you can do with plugins these days...ahhh technology 8)
EDIT: Thanks! I'll look into it, ahaha
And BTW, I'd really like to know if anyone ever used TC electronic g-force I mentioned earlier... It really got my attention after hearing several clips!
http://www.tcelectronic.com/G-Force
If you want analog, you don't want TC because it is all digital, and there is no true bypass feature, as far as i have researched (someone with more knowledge feel free to smite my ignorance).
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I have a few points here.
Most the really great recordings -- not just sound quality/tone but overall recordings, counting dynamics, were all recorded on analog, like Van Halen I.
Ironically most digital recordings have a full range of frequencies and great sound, but more often than not they end up being overcompressed, and have inferiour dynamics despite the fact that digital is not prone to a minimum amount of compression like analog devices.
In the defense of digital however, the harsh and overcompressed sounds are mostly fault of idiot producters.
I think both Bozzio Levin Stevens albums are a great example dynamics on a digital recording (I am fairly sure it was recorded digitally). I personally thing it does a better job of making it sound like you are there in the room when they were playing than the first Van Halen album which was a great recording.
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I use a Koch Loadbox II. It has a direct out via jack plug, or XLR socket with 1x12, 4x12, straight or angled mike Sims' for recording.
As for recording I use an 1820 E-MU sound card and Cu-base. With digital recording the flexibility once you understand the basics is brilliant. You do however have to watch your recording levels. If the go over 0db then it will distort and sound horrible, but if you remember using cassette tapes years back then you could go over a fair bit on the levels without sounding horrible, thus producing a 'Louder' recording. I've found once you have a few tracks going into the master mixer, you have to compress the lot in order to keep it all under 0db.
Here's the back of the attenuator i use.
(http://i103.photobucket.com/albums/m153/Johnnymac1965/P7270180.jpg)
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Wow thats nice! ^ ^ ^ ^
BTW Is it really that important to do the recordings in studio to get that "clean" tone without all that noise and hiss?
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I own a PodXT as well and have owned various tube amps and digital simulators. Don't believe the hype - while digital modelling has come a long way, it has a long long long ways to go to match a good tube amp.
The Pod's simulations are also limited by its software. For instance, you don't like the choice of amps Pod simulates or you really wish Line6 would offer a VHT sim? Too bad.
At the same time, I like my Pod. Actually, I love the little bugger. Not only can you record without having to have deaf neighbors, the Pod does a lot of things that no tube amp will do, or at least without a huge budget for hacking up vintage gear.
For example, want to run a 120W Fender Twin amplifier cranked through a 1x10" Gretsch speaker cabinet? And not blow up a speaker? No problem! You will fidn that some of the best Pod tones come from some outlandish combinations of gear. Then you want to save your amp settings to reproduce your tone later? Done.
The trick is to see the Pod for what it is and work with that, and not ask it to be what it is not.
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Aye, I use a Pod XT, and the sound is amazing. But it will never beat a proper, loud valve amp.
I hate the sound. I hate the dry tone, I hate the low-gain-lots-of-layers sounds. It takes me hours to fight the little git to get something tolerable out of it.
However
Ceramic pig in legra MDV602
->
Comrpessor
->
ISP Decimator
->
Screamer (with EQ20 in effects loop)
-> MD421 and SM57
All times 2, plus the same but with a TSL602 sounds pretty dang good.