Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum

Forum Ringside => Guitars, Amps and Effects => Topic started by: Yamhammer on October 08, 2007, 12:15:14 PM

Title: Chambered or weight relieved?
Post by: Yamhammer on October 08, 2007, 12:15:14 PM
Hi,

I have a question about my 2006 LP Studio Premium Plus:

Chambered or not?
Title: Chambered or weight relieved?
Post by: Ratrod on October 08, 2007, 12:50:13 PM
This is how a chambered Les Paul looks like on the inside.
(http://www.betterguitar.com/equipment/guitars/epiphone/les_paul_ultra/chambered_body.jpg)

When the top is mounted, the chambers are permanently sealed. Anything that gets trapped inside like wood splinters or little pieces of solder will never get out.

But I don't think your's is chambered. Take off all the cover plates and pickups, shake it around and see what falls out.
Title: Chambered or weight relieved?
Post by: Yamhammer on October 08, 2007, 01:07:05 PM
Yeah, but that stuff inside the guitar is weird for a 'not-chambered' Les Paul.
Title: Chambered or weight relieved?
Post by: Philly Q on October 08, 2007, 01:07:56 PM
Your LP isn't chambered, but (as you've indicated in the title of the thread) it may well be weight relieved.  Instead of large chambers like the pic above, the weight relief is basically just holes drilled most of the way through the body to remove some wood.  Hidden, of course, by the maple top.

Chambering affects the tone, giving the guitar a semi-acoustic quality, but the weight relief holes don't have much effect because the "cavities" are too small to resonate.

I've read that most (maybe all?) newer, non-Custom Shop, LPs have 9 weight relief holes drilled in the body.

But yeah, it's more likely just a little bit of solder in the control cavity or something.
Title: Chambered or weight relieved?
Post by: WezV on October 08, 2007, 01:16:02 PM
have you not all heard about gibsons revolutionary 'toneflakes', garanteed improvement in tone!!

Philly has the right information, it is possibly a weight relieved body rather than a chambered one
Title: Chambered or weight relieved?
Post by: Yamhammer on October 08, 2007, 01:19:47 PM
Quote from: Philly Q
Your LP isn't chambered, but (as you've indicated in the title of the thread) it may well be weight relieved.  Instead of large chambers like the pic above, the weight relief is basically just holes drilled most of the way through the body to remove some wood.  Hidden, of course, by the maple top.

Chambering affects the tone, giving the guitar a semi-acoustic quality, but the weight relief holes don't have much effect because the "cavities" are too small to resonate.

I've read that most (maybe all?) newer, non-Custom Shop, LPs have 9 weight relief holes drilled in the body.

But yeah, it's more likely just a little bit of solder in the control cavity or something.


Thanks for your clarification about the chambering thing.

I also think the LP Studio is weight relieved, but that stuff inside you hear shaking around isn't a bit of solder or a loose electronic thing in the control cavity. I had this 'problem' from the  first day I've bought the guitar and it's still there (even with the new pickups in it). I've looked in the control cavity but I couldn't find anything wrong in it.
It must be something in the holes...and I think that's kinda weird for only a weight relieved LP.
Title: Chambered or weight relieved?
Post by: Twinfan on October 08, 2007, 01:39:19 PM
I'd take both rear cover plates off and shake the guitar around a bit.  There may be something in the toggle switch cavity, or in the channel between the two cavities, that's rattling around.  Have a listen and see if you can work out where the sound's coming from too...
Title: Chambered or weight relieved?
Post by: WezV on October 08, 2007, 01:44:12 PM
yeah - definately check first, but this is a common issue on newer gibsons.  Check out one of the BFG's!!!
Title: Chambered or weight relieved?
Post by: Philly Q on October 08, 2007, 01:58:57 PM
If it is something in one of the weight relief holes, you're going to be stuck with it.  :(

I'd have thought they'd be glueing the tops in a nice clean dust-and-lint-free environment, but you never know with Gibson.
Title: Chambered or weight relieved?
Post by: WezV on October 08, 2007, 02:13:27 PM
apparently with the BFG's they purposely dont hoover them out to add to the badly made feel of the guitar.

With the normal LP's i guess they try and keep them cleaned out but are not that thorough - gibsons attention to detail is not great is it.  It could also be a loose bit of glue that is left over from glueing the top on.

if it is this then it cant easily be fixed but isnt really a problem anyway - worth checking everywhere else first like has been suggested
Title: Chambered or weight relieved?
Post by: Ted on October 08, 2007, 02:59:16 PM
Will Sir have the swiss cheese or the hollow?

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/bandersnatchreverb/xray.gif)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v214/bandersnatchreverb/LPBFG.jpg)

I saw these on the Warmoth board, quite interesting...
Title: Chambered or weight relieved?
Post by: Philly Q on October 08, 2007, 03:17:57 PM
Quote from: Ted
Will Sir have the swiss cheese or the hollow?

I saw these on the Warmoth board, quite interesting...

Very interesting!  :D

So presumably that's an LP Custom with, as they said, 9 weight-relief holes.  And a BFG with chambers.

You can even see the short-tenon neck joint.
Title: Chambered or weight relieved?
Post by: CUBE on October 08, 2007, 03:27:07 PM
Gibson started chambering in about september of 06 the stuff rattling around is a bit of wood pushed into the cavity of the guitar from the end pin, this problem was fixed on all the new ones
Title: Chambered or weight relieved?
Post by: noodleplugerine on October 08, 2007, 05:06:17 PM
Quote from: CUBE
Gibson started chambering in about september of 06 the stuff rattling around is a bit of wood pushed into the cavity of the guitar from the end pin, this problem was fixed on all the new ones


If that's true then you're just another customer fully satisfied by Gibson's amazing build quality!
Title: Chambered or weight relieved?
Post by: sgmypod on October 08, 2007, 05:11:29 PM
Sorry to jump in here but where did you get the hollow picks....as have a guild which is chambered ...anyone got one of that *S*
Title: Chambered or weight relieved?
Post by: CUBE on October 08, 2007, 05:24:34 PM
sadly it is true, .  i was there in May the QC has jumped up. but they are pretty much mass produced and hand made.
some room for error is expected,
Title: Chambered or weight relieved?
Post by: Yamhammer on October 09, 2007, 12:45:20 AM
Quote from: CUBE
Gibson started chambering in about september of 06 the stuff rattling around is a bit of wood pushed into the cavity of the guitar from the end pin, this problem was fixed on all the new ones

From 'The Guitar Dater Project' about LP Studio:

Your guitar was made at the
Nashville Plant, TN, USA
March 1st, 2006
Production Number: 132

Title: Chambered or weight relieved?
Post by: CUBE on October 09, 2007, 02:35:26 AM
check the bolts around the pots they become loose and rattle
Title: Chambered or weight relieved?
Post by: WezV on October 09, 2007, 07:12:15 AM
Quote from: CUBE
check the bolts around the pots they become loose and rattle


oh yeah, check every single moving part - blutac can come in very handy for a speedy diagnosis.

Bridges, tuners and trussrods are also often culprits for sympathetic vibration  - the last one is a pain to fix though
Title: Chambered or weight relieved?
Post by: Ted on October 09, 2007, 08:54:11 AM
Quote
I always read the chambered LP Standard Faded's have great resonance with great acoustic sound.


Yes thats the first thing that hit me when I played my ex Faded Paul.

But I just could not get on with it though so I sold the bar-steward, even after BKP'ing it and a fret dress & set up.
Title: Chambered or weight relieved?
Post by: Yamhammer on October 09, 2007, 11:00:05 AM
Quote
Yes thats the first thing that hit me when I played my ex Faded Paul.

But I just could not get on with it though so I sold the bar-steward, even after BKP'ing it and a fret dress & set up.


Why couldn't you get on with it?
Title: Chambered or weight relieved?
Post by: Ted on October 09, 2007, 02:21:44 PM
I dunno, I cannot pinpoint it but it just did not feel right to me.

When you play a nice guitar sometimes you get carried away in the moment and the instrument almost becomes an extension of you and you forget its there. Sounds corny and cliched but there ya go..!

Then I picked up a really nice Tokai LP which kicked the Gibbo's arse. Better made, lighter, more comfortable, nicer fretboard.

I sold the Gibson and because of the name I made money on it...paying for the Tokai and most of the parts for my Warmoth SG.
Title: Chambered or weight relieved?
Post by: Yamhammer on October 09, 2007, 02:49:13 PM
I know what you mean  :) 
Title: Chambered or weight relieved?
Post by: Bird on October 09, 2007, 03:14:02 PM
I've read that the weight relief thing has been going on for years, maybe late 90's. And with the newer ones apparently they're all done. Check Harmony Central. I saw a big thread on this somewhere, just can't recall where. I think what pissed people off about this was that Gibson didn't make it common knowledge. People found out about it on their own and started asking questions, and Gibson started with the excuses.
Here's one quote from Gibson on HC

"The weight relief pattern has changed for 2007. We have modified the original Swiss cheese hole pattern to something that has a purpose other than to lighten up the guitar. Originally, the holes were cut in a pattern that maximized the available space and did not take into consideration tone, balance, and sustain. So, we felt that a scientific approach was best if we were to change the pattern. We knew that we could now measure frequency output of the guitar and also determine positive or negative effects of any changes to the internal routing. So, we initially approached the project from the perspective of just improving the placement of the original holes. As we began testing, we noticed that when we moved the holes closer together, sound and sustain improved. We then decided to try moving the holes so close together that they actually created one big hole instead of several small ones. The area volume was the same but the improvement of sustain and output was greater. This drove us to start playing with the actual shape and size of a single large chamber and then to multiple chambers, strategically placed inside the guitar. We couldn’t do much with the control pockets and pickup pockets so we decided to focus on all of the mass and area around those routings. After several months of testing, the current sonic tuning pattern emerged. This pattern works in all Les Pauls and gives us a much better sounding instrument, sustain is improved, and as an added benefit, weight has been reduced by 20%-30%. Sustain can be improved two ways; by creating rigidity and by sound reverberation. While reducing weight further wasn’t our goal, it definitely should be received as a positive side affect to our real goal; giving reason to our original weight relief pattern of holes.


Regards,
Roger Ball
Gibson Customer Service
service@gibson.com "
Title: Chambered or weight relieved?
Post by: WezV on October 09, 2007, 03:31:50 PM
so they are making up loads of BS about sustain!!  i get annoyed with the number of times sustain is used to justify stuff - how much sustain does a LP need!!!

It will sound different, not always a bad thing but if they are really being scientific it would be nice to see some data on frequency response rather than just saying it increases sustain.

I have no problem with the weight relieve techniques and they can be used to shape the tone of a guitar but there answer is a bit vague
Title: Chambered or weight relieved?
Post by: Bird on October 09, 2007, 03:38:19 PM
Here's another one I got of the Gibson forum. The guy sent in  a question about his guitar and the "swiss cheese" relief holes.

Hi Michael,
 
Gibson USA began this ca. 1982. The Les Paul Classic has always had the weight relief holes since it was introduced ca.1989. Thank you for the inquiry.
 
Customer Service
Gibson Guitar Corp.
1-800-4GIBSON
Title: Chambered or weight relieved?
Post by: Philly Q on October 09, 2007, 03:54:52 PM
So judging by that long passage above, all new LPs have those huge chambers like the BFG?  

It's not a solidbody guitar at all, you might as well put f-holes in there and have done with it.
Title: Chambered or weight relieved?
Post by: CUBE on October 09, 2007, 03:56:33 PM
yep thats how they do it now,
 i got some pics of the machine that does it let me find em
Title: Chambered or weight relieved?
Post by: Bird on October 09, 2007, 04:08:15 PM
This is just another reason I'll be getting mine from Feline.  :wink:
Title: Chambered or weight relieved?
Post by: Yamhammer on October 09, 2007, 04:12:02 PM
Very Interesting stuff guys.

Title: Chambered or weight relieved?
Post by: CUBE on October 09, 2007, 04:58:21 PM
i never say a standard in silverburst before..cool
Title: Chambered or weight relieved?
Post by: noodleplugerine on October 09, 2007, 05:08:11 PM
With an Ebony fretboard no less!
Title: Chambered or weight relieved?
Post by: Yamhammer on October 09, 2007, 05:39:38 PM
Jup.