Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum
At The Back => Time Out => Topic started by: JDC on October 14, 2007, 10:05:29 PM
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any good fast legato players on this board?
just wondering if you use compression to help keep everything smooth and even?
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Well mines getting there. I took some lessons from a guy a few years ago that concentrated on legato. He said to practise with a clean tone, so that's what I've been doing now for 2 years. It's a hard technique to learn, especially the pull offs! I could see how compression would help.
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I have the worst legato of anybody on the planet
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any good fast legato players on this board?
just wondering if you use compression to help keep everything smooth and even?
I play alot of legato - And I never tend to use a compressor - I know some people do, but I think it's kinda overkill - That being said, if your guitar doesn't have the amount of sustain that my lump of mahogany does at the neck pickup - Then I could imagine needing it.
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I wish i had a good legato, though i am trying to work on it, as one of my biggest influences is the great Randy Rhoads aka king of legato!
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I wish i had a good legato, though i am trying to work on it, as one of my biggest influences is the great Randy Rhoads aka king of legato!
check out the guy who plays lead in Meshuggah, he does like free jazzy legato solos, I so wish I could play like that!!!
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what exactly is legato? kind of embarrassing since Randy Rhoads is my hero, and apparently he's the king of it... is it just playing with a lot of pull-offs and hammer ons?
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what exactly is legato? ... is it just playing with a lot of pull-offs and hammer ons?
Yes. Legato is hammer ons and pull offs.
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what exactly is legato? ... is it just playing with a lot of pull-offs and hammer ons?
Yes. Legato is hammer ons and pull offs.
so how do you determine yourself to be a legato player? everyone uses hammer ons and pull offs...
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Probably the best legato player is Allan Holdsworth, and he doesn't use pull offs (in the traditional sense).
Instead of fretting two notes on the same string and then pulling the higher finger off to sound the lower one (as most people do) he frets one note, removes his finger from the string and then hammers on the lower note.
I've tried this and it's very tricky, but I can imagine it would sound much smoother. No scr@ping callus on the string or nasty TWANG if you pull too quickly.
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what exactly is legato? ... is it just playing with a lot of pull-offs and hammer ons?
Yes. Legato is hammer ons and pull offs.
so how do you determine yourself to be a legato player? everyone uses hammer ons and pull offs...
It's when you mostly use hammers and pulls to play leads and melodies rather than picking, the sound is different. Listen to guys like Satriani or Brett Garsed compared to pickers like Petrucci and Gilbert.
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compression is cheating! practise clean and get it down. Oh yea keep the action low and the fingerboard straight ;)
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My legato hero is Criss Oliva, Randy Rhoads is close second tho
really would like to play like those 2 guys :)
perhaps someday... but most likely not :lol:
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I love legato, sounds so much better than picking every note to me.
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I like it but i love the attack of fast alternate picked runs like Zakk does too. But that's also very hard to learn!!
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I like it but i love the attack of fast alternate picked runs like Zakk does too. But that's also very hard to learn!!
A combination of both is the best imo, though you don't get many of those kind of players, they are either fast pickers or all legato.
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I like it but i love the attack of fast alternate picked runs like Zakk does too. But that's also very hard to learn!!
A combination of both is the best imo, though you don't get many of those kind of players, they are either fast pickers or all legato.
I've noticed that too, well stick with what you find easiest, picking knackers my right arm after a while, or is that something else?? :roll: :lol:
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I find the Zakk runs a bit easier and find timing easier to hit.
when i started i rarely did legato, so not as good at that :(
but love its feeling :)
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I like it but i love the attack of fast alternate picked runs like Zakk does too. But that's also very hard to learn!!
A combination of both is the best imo, though you don't get many of those kind of players, they are either fast pickers or all legato.
I've noticed that too, well stick with what you find easiest, picking knackers my right arm after a while, or is that something else?? :roll: :lol:
lmao :lol:
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I think that the combination of the two styles can provide you with some great turnarounds. I spent years working on the Zakk Style and then realised that the majority of guitarists use the same pentatonic picking technique. They just happen to use it in moderation so when you do hear the run it kinda stands out from their other playing. Most of my playing is now Legato with hints of picking for accent.
Marty Friedman, Richie Kotzen and Eric Johnson all use the 'Zakk' scale but have a variety of different styles around it. Kotzens Legato and picking technique is pretty stunning and still makes me want to pack it all in. For me Satch is one of the greatest exponents of Legato, Flying in a Blue Dream and Memories are killers.
I'm not really a fan of Randy Rhoads, was more of a Jake E Lee fan. Was Rhoads really that good or just a bad version of EVH and Yngwie?
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I'm not really a fan of Randy Rhoads, was more of a Jake E Lee fan. Was Rhoads really that good or just a bad version of EVH and Yngwie?
i'm assuming you're retarded? i mean, really, a bad version of EVH and yngwie? first of all, he's completely different from EVH. He can't be a copy of him seeing as he was in quiet riot when van halen was starting up. Van halen just got popular first so people think he's just a copy. and yngwie? how can you even say yngwie is worthy of being a stage crew member for rhoads, let alone better than him.
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That seems a little harsh coming from someone who didn't know what Legato was. If you're a Rhoads fan, point me at something that will make me believe that he was 'great'. All I've heard from the Ozzy stuff is half ass'd Neo-classical and poor tapping licks. If you don't like Yngwie as a comparison, then Michael Schenker or Uli Jon Roth should cover the classical bit. For the rest George Lynch and Steve Lukather were about so that covers the LA style.
I think it'd be interesting to hear how he'd sound today if he'd not passed on. The fact that he is no longer with us though, is not enough to grant him the status that Hendrix and Stevie Ray Vaughn command. In the meantime, I've not heard anything that I haven't heard better elsewhere.
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I'm prone to agree here - None of the Ozzy guitarists have impressed me in the least, other than the fact that they're good "band guitarists".
Randy Rhoads is raved about, but he's nothing compared to the big names =/
As far as I can see, he was an image guitarist, like Slash.
Back on topic - I just reread the topic title - it says "Fast legato", if you're not sustaining the notes majorly, then why would you need a comp?
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I'm prone to agree here - None of the Ozzy guitarists have impressed me in the least, other than the fact that they're good "band guitarists".
Not even Jake E Lee?! :o You're hard to please.
Wind to 1:52 in this video http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=jSNuIzw9VfU 8)
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I'm prone to agree here - None of the Ozzy guitarists have impressed me in the least, other than the fact that they're good "band guitarists".
Not even Jake E Lee?! :o You're hard to please.
Wind to 1:52 in this video http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=jSNuIzw9VfU 8)
and he rewrote that solo for the 86 tour :o
And well, Randy was made a legend by his early death, but did inspire the now big names i guess. Imagine if EVH had died
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You can't call Ozzy's guitarists band guitarists, that's just silly. All of Ozzy's guitarists are pretty unique and do their thing well, very well.
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Well Jake scared me as I had no idea what he was doing when I first heard RNR Rebel and Bark at the moon. Even Ultimates Sins solo is superb. Then there was No more tears and Zakk blew me away some of his playing all be it pentatonic was just really alive. When he mixes it up with country like the solo in P&G's Toe 'n' the line, it gives me goose bumps. The shame is I just don't like what he does now :cry: .
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I think that the saddest thing about Randy was that he never got a chance to bloom or show what he was capable of.
He admitted that live he did lift a bit of EVH's solo - he was a fan of Eddie and in some ways never really had enough time to develop his own stuff for live use, as life on the road with Ozzy was a bit hectic back then.
In that short period 1980-82 there were 2 ground-breaking albums written and recorded and major touring inroads made.
The whole hotshot guitarist thing was only starting to reemerge after the whole punk/new wave thing as well.
Ozzy did have a stream of good players...including Bernie Torme, Brad Gillis, Jake, Zakk and Joe Holmes
I found that the more emphasis on who was the hottest guitarist detracted away from the great music that was being written
However there are some great technicians out there - Paul Gilbert must still be one of my favourites....
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Jake was the reason i began playing guitar
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I'm prone to agree here - None of the Ozzy guitarists have impressed me in the least, other than the fact that they're good "band guitarists".
Randy Rhoads is raved about, but he's nothing compared to the big names =/
As far as I can see, he was an image guitarist, like Slash.
Back on topic - I just reread the topic title - it says "Fast legato", if you're not sustaining the notes majorly, then why would you need a comp?
Band guitarists? :? Well they all blow us away in here and we're not likely to get anywhere near their talent. Hmmm..Anyway..
Oh and Slash can play mate don't delude yourself there!
Well a compresser would help even out the dynamics so if your pull offs are a bit uneven then it could cover that up a bit, but it's best to practise clean with no effects to nail it and it takes a lot of practise, years.
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Don't confuse Band guitarists with BAD guitarists, all I'm saying is why does Randy get more credit than someone like Jeff Loomis, Symphony X guy or John Petrucci, or any other "band guitarist" who can play well.
I just don't see what makes him a step above.
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Don't confuse Band guitarists with BAD guitarists, all I'm saying is why does Randy get more credit than someone like Jeff Loomis, Symphony X guy or John Petrucci, or any other "band guitarist" who can play well.
I just don't see what makes him a step above.
I feel that band players get more exposure through the easier accesability of the music that they play in the context of.
Also maybe certain band players play for the song and their greatness has a context.
Sadly some fantastic players are in bands that many people find unlistenable because of the nature of the music or because of a singer who can't sing or does that cookie monster vocal style
Good example : George Lynch
In Dokken he rocked and many people got to hear his playing on the radio, at a gig or even on MTV.
His post Dokken stuff whilst possibly even more technically proficient
1) just doesnt get heard by most people
2) isnt as easy on the ear and "hummable"
3) doesn't get him on a concert billing where you can get to see him very often
As for poor old John Petrucci.....he seems to be in a band that allows for 20 minute keyboard solos followed by a 10 minute bass solo etc etc
I saw them on the Images and Words tour and also on the Awake tour and as good as they were - they were self indulgent and boring with all the extended solos, when the material they had would let them rock the house.
I guess I still go to see bands more with the mindset of a rock-fan rather than a guitar nut.
Ok - just my opinions but maybe ones shared by others here and there.
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That seems a little harsh coming from someone who didn't know what Legato was. If you're a Rhoads fan, point me at something that will make me believe that he was 'great'. All I've heard from the Ozzy stuff is half ass'd Neo-classical and poor tapping licks. If you don't like Yngwie as a comparison, then Michael Schenker or Uli Jon Roth should cover the classical bit. For the rest George Lynch and Steve Lukather were about so that covers the LA style.
I think it'd be interesting to hear how he'd sound today if he'd not passed on. The fact that he is no longer with us though, is not enough to grant him the status that Hendrix and Stevie Ray Vaughn command. In the meantime, I've not heard anything that I haven't heard better elsewhere.
i've heard very few guitarists play rhythm as well as Randy did. Most guitarists try to play something simple during verses while Randy's songs were always very complex. You can't deny he wasn't a great soloist. I can't name a song where i didn't think his solo was incredible. He also seems to play with more emotion than any guitarist i've ever heard. go listen to goodbye to romance, particularly the solo. Also, he was a very good classical music player, though he was still taking lessons even while playing for ozzy. go have a listen to Dee.
And may I ask, have you ever listened to the Tribute album? This is where he was his greatest. They should've just recorded their albums live.
by the way, i was joking about calling you retarded, although i do feel that you are WRONG! :x
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Randy Rhoads is raved about, but he's nothing compared to the big names =/
I'm not really into these who's-"better"-than-who pissing contests :roll: , but just curious - who did you have in mind as the "big names"?
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As for poor old John Petrucci.....he seems to be in a band that allows for 20 minute keyboard solos followed by a 10 minute bass solo etc etc
Sadly that's not the case. They rarely have bass solos, and when they do, it's in the context of a song. Such a shame becuase John Myung is brilliant when he does have his moments in the sun, i.e. intro to Scarred, ending of Trial of Tears, fusion shred in Dance of Eternity.
DT happens to have a very diverse fanbase. Some come for the metal, some for the prog, and some to see the players. DT tries to please them all.
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back onto legato, I've acquired some Rusty Cooley DVDs
his legato is "so good" it sounds like a laser gun!!!
technique wise he is probably the best guitarist I've ever heard but musically he really doesn't have any sense of feel, he needs a few lessons off Joe Satriani
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Randy Rhoads is raved about, but he's nothing compared to the big names =/
I'm not really into these who's-"better"-than-who pissing contests :roll: , but just curious - who did you have in mind as the "big names"?
Becker, Lane, Govan, Vai, Santana, Satriani, Malmsteen, Hendrix, etc.
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i've heard very few guitarists play rhythm as well as Randy did. Most guitarists try to play something simple during verses while Randy's songs were always very complex. You can't deny he wasn't a great soloist. I can't name a song where i didn't think his solo was incredible. He also seems to play with more emotion than any guitarist i've ever heard. go listen to goodbye to romance, particularly the solo. Also, he was a very good classical music player, though he was still taking lessons even while playing for ozzy. go have a listen to Dee.
And may I ask, have you ever listened to the Tribute album? This is where he was his greatest. They should've just recorded their albums live.
by the way, i was joking about calling you retarded, although i do feel that you are WRONG! :x
Well I have a feeling this is simply down to a matter of opinion. I know all the material you mention and I still think his death had a large part to play in his elevated status. I was chatting with Jonathan from Feline regarding the RR legacy and he echoed the sentiment that Randy never had the chance to bloom. He could've been amazing but I think his potential was never realised while he was alive.
I'd say that as guitarists, we have so many options available in terms of heroes that it's important that we keep an open mind. Real heroes are people like Jason Becker, who was stricken down with Lou Gehrigs Disease. A protege player now sadly only able to communicate with eye movements. Check out his yoyo solo on Youtube, the man was insanely talented.
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Randy Rhoads is raved about, but he's nothing compared to the big names =/
I'm not really into these who's-"better"-than-who pissing contests :roll: , but just curious - who did you have in mind as the "big names"?
Becker, Lane, Govan, Vai, Santana, Satriani, Malmsteen, Hendrix, etc.
Personally, i feel that Vai, Santana, Satriani, Malmsteen, Hendrix are all more famous than Randy Rhoads anyways and that Randy doesn't get as much recognition as them haha.
Also, while people like Becker and Malmsteen are good at what they do, what do they do apart from shredding their arses off to give them a legendary guitarist status?
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Here is a live Jake E Lee solo I found
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eqtk6kKTlDM
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HAHahaha genius. Ozzy really is masterful with the crowd in this clip! I'm glad I've seen the original mind you :wink: .
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Personally, i feel that Vai, Santana, Satriani, Malmsteen, Hendrix are all more famous than Randy Rhoads anyways and that Randy doesn't get as much recognition as them haha.
Also, while people like Becker and Malmsteen are good at what they do, what do they do apart from shredding their arses off to give them a legendary guitarist status?
1- vai keeps bees. :lol:
2- to be fair, they are guitarists. No-one says "well, he came up with relativity, but what else did einstein do?", or "well, he could race a car pretty quickly, but what else did schumacher do?"
It just seems that in guitar there's a totally different type of scale to everything else- at times (thankfully this has gone away a little) it's almost uncool to be any good.
Don't get me wrong, if I go to a concert I don't necessarily want to listen to someone out-and-out shredding for an hour and a half. And sometimes the simple stuff does rock harder. But if there are good songs there too, I don't see the problem with being a great player, and being allowed some cool solos, either.
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It just seems that in guitar there's a totally different type of scale to everything else- at times (thankfully this has gone away a little) it's almost uncool to be any good.
This is quite irrelevant, but those of you who really listen to death metal must've noticed that it's getting more and more technical (and boring) all the time nowadays
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No-one says "well, he came up with relativity, but what else did einstein do?"
He also contributed to an explanation of the Brownian movement of molecules, atomic transition probabilities, the quantum theory of a monatomic gas, thermal properties of light with low radiation density (which laid the foundation for the photon theory), a theory of radiation including stimulated emission, the conception of a unified field theory, and the geometrization of physics.
I had to learn about his contribution to quantum theory last year. Man done a lot.
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Personally, i feel that Vai, Santana, Satriani, Malmsteen, Hendrix are all more famous than Randy Rhoads anyways and that Randy doesn't get as much recognition as them haha.
Also, while people like Becker and Malmsteen are good at what they do, what do they do apart from shredding their arses off to give them a legendary guitarist status?
1- vai keeps bees. :lol:
2- to be fair, they are guitarists. No-one says "well, he came up with relativity, but what else did einstein do?", or "well, he could race a car pretty quickly, but what else did schumacher do?"
It just seems that in guitar there's a totally different type of scale to everything else- at times (thankfully this has gone away a little) it's almost uncool to be any good.
Don't get me wrong, if I go to a concert I don't necessarily want to listen to someone out-and-out shredding for an hour and a half. And sometimes the simple stuff does rock harder. But if there are good songs there too, I don't see the problem with being a great player, and being allowed some cool solos, either.
Yeah, that's true i suppose, though it would be nice to hear them do something a bit different once in a while if your going to call them 'legendary'.
And to the death metal thing, it's definatley not as good as the old school but still we have some great death metal bands out there, e.g. Nile, Necrophagist etc.
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Randy Rhoads is raved about, but he's nothing compared to the big names =/
I'm not really into these who's-"better"-than-who pissing contests :roll: , but just curious - who did you have in mind as the "big names"?
Becker, Lane, Govan, Vai, Santana, Satriani, Malmsteen, Hendrix, etc.
I don't think RR gets more credit than the players you have listed. May be from a rock fans point of view? Most rock fans probably don't play the guitar so they would judge things based on songs and image. There's more to being a musician than flashy solos and good technique. The image thing counts too from a fans point of veiw, not mine, I should point out, but if they look like a knob then they tend to get overlooked. Us guitarists do tend to do the who's better than who thing, espcially when we're younger. If you like this one great and that one great but it's all subjective. What counts is putting the whole thing in context with a great band, writing songs that will still be listened to in decades and generations to come. That's going on now with Rock and Metal worldwide, unlike some of the shitee people count as music these days, pasting .wav files in to pro tools ect or vacuous guitar bands on xfm that all sound like each other, they're the ones who don't deserve credit. RR has influenced lots of players and is part of this amazing music scene that we're all into, so for that and his playing he is ok by me. :wink:
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pasting .wav files in to pro tools ect... they're the ones who don't deserve credit.
After spending a couple of hours with logic creating a song using sampled children's TV program themes, i can tell you we do!
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This is quite irrelevant, but those of you who really listen to death metal must've noticed that it's getting more and more technical (and boring) all the time nowadays
I don't... :lol:
i meant more the idea that anything more than barre chords and you somehow were less creative, along with that other big myth that if you know any music theory that you're instantly less creative... I don't want to listen to a 256-bar keyboard solo in 7/8 any more than any of you do, but there's a happy medium.
[He also contributed to an explanation of the Brownian movement of molecules, atomic transition probabilities, the quantum theory of a monatomic gas, thermal properties of light with low radiation density (which laid the foundation for the photon theory), a theory of radiation including stimulated emission, the conception of a unified field theory, and the geometrization of physics.
I had to learn about his contribution to quantum theory last year. Man done a lot.
yes, and schumacher did a natty line in hair product adverts, but they were the first two who are extremely famous for one thing who came to mind.
David Beckham, then (whom I somehow highly doubt is an accomplished, world-respected moonlighting archeologist). How many people ever say "well, he's good at passing and taking corners but what else does he do?"
:wink:
Yeah, that's true i suppose, though it would be nice to hear them do something a bit different once in a while if your going to call them 'legendary'.
you mean like extreme ironing or something? because if so, that'd be awesome. I'd pay to see that.
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pasting .wav files in to pro tools ect... they're the ones who don't deserve credit.
After spending a couple of hours with logic creating a song using sampled children's TV program themes, i can tell you we do!
Let's hear it then! :lol:
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If you like this one great and that one great but it's all subjective. What counts is putting the whole thing in context with a great band, writing songs that will still be listened to in decades and generations to come.
Johnny, I agree 100% with that!
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No-one says "well, he came up with relativity, but what else did einstein do?"
He also contributed to an explanation of the Brownian movement of molecules, atomic transition probabilities, the quantum theory of a monatomic gas, thermal properties of light with low radiation density (which laid the foundation for the photon theory), a theory of radiation including stimulated emission, the conception of a unified field theory, and the geometrization of physics.
I had to learn about his contribution to quantum theory last year. Man done a lot.
The funny thing is, didn't he refuse to believe it?
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pasting .wav files in to pro tools ect... they're the ones who don't deserve credit.
After spending a couple of hours with logic creating a song using sampled children's TV program themes, i can tell you we do!
Let's hear it then! :lol:
yu can when i figure out how to export MP3s from logic. ARGH
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pasting .wav files in to pro tools ect... they're the ones who don't deserve credit.
After spending a couple of hours with logic creating a song using sampled children's TV program themes, i can tell you we do!
Let's hear it then! :lol:
yu can when i figure out how to export MP3s from logic. ARGH
I've never used logic, but in cubase you mixdown and save as mp3, or I used to save as .wav, then get another program to convert it to mp3.
See, your credit rating has already diminished!! :lol:
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If you like this one great and that one great but it's all subjective. What counts is putting the whole thing in context with a great band, writing songs that will still be listened to in decades and generations to come.
Johnny, I agree 100% with that!
Nice one Philly! :D
Man this thread has gone off topic hasn't it! E=Mc2 and the quantum theory of a monatomic strawberry Angel Delight with hundreds and thousands, Randy's good, Randy's not worthy, Slash is a Poseur and it all started with legato!!
So how is everyone's legato today? As fluid as a violin soloist or like a shopping trolley full of cake banging away over a bumpy pavement?
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This thread needs.......
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MORE COWBELL!!!!! :!:
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This thread needs.......
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MORE COWBELL!!!!! :!:
cowbell blastbeats!!!!!!
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I'm prone to agree here - None of the Ozzy guitarists have impressed me in the least, other than the fact that they're good "band guitarists".
Not even Jake E Lee?! :o You're hard to please.
Wind to 1:52 in this video http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=jSNuIzw9VfU 8)
Yeah, but what about the times he played badly?!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eqtk6kKTlDM
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I'm prone to agree here - None of the Ozzy guitarists have impressed me in the least, other than the fact that they're good "band guitarists".
Not even Jake E Lee?! :o You're hard to please.
Wind to 1:52 in this video http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=jSNuIzw9VfU 8)
Yeah, but what about the times he played badly?!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eqtk6kKTlDM
Feline posted that 2 pages ago or something. Bit boring I think.
When we're talking about real videos, I`ve never seen Jake screw up. His playing is unbelievable. IMO he's better than Randy and Zakk. He can write more memorable riffs and solos (Killer of Giants solo). I like Randy don't get me wrong, he's great but he's lacking something for me, I don't know what it is though. Joe Holmes is probably my 2nd favourite Ozzy guitarist, his tone is awesomely dirty for a strat.
Come back Jake!!
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I`ve never seen Jake screw up. His playing is unbelievable. IMO he's better than Randy and Zakk. He can write more memorable riffs and solos (Killer of Giants solo).
Come back Jake!!
+1
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Joe Holmes is probably my 2nd favourite Ozzy guitarist, his tone is awesomely dirty for a strat.
Come back Jake!!
I don't think I've ever heard Joe holmes play, but I know he was a student of Randy's. I had tickets to see the Ozzmosis Tour, but the gig was cancelled due to Mr Castillo(RIP) injuring his arm. So I missed out on witnessing Joe. I totally agree that Jake was that best and that Zakk adopted alot of his techniques, but I think Ozzy and P&G Zakk was pretty amazing. Miracle Mans solo, No More Tears and Farmyard Fiddlin' are all fine things.
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I don't think one is better than the other, they are all good at what they do, but they have completely different styles so no-one is better imo, they are all good.
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yeah i like jake, but you can't tell me he wrote more memorable riffs and solos... not a chance. you're saying killer of giants was memorable? mr. crowley, crazy train, flying high again, over the mountain?
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:D Calling a guitarist a band player is the most condensending phrase i think i`ve come across on the boards ever. [ its at this point TO will post something up that i`ve said :P ]
The quotes for the likes of Hendrix, Santana etc are frankly dumb. Did they have singing in there songs ? so guitar wise they were just band players to.
You have to remember Context. It allways easy to knock something or someone years later & even easier to miss the point entirley. The secret is Context. For those of us that were there & i was RR is one of the greatest guitar players ever. Period.
Why ? Context. Every body & i mean everybody thought Ozzy would form another version of the Sabs. What he actually did was find a young inspiring guitar player who played more like Schenker than EVH but had the flair & style of the new young American guitar players. British guitar players were very very blues based, US guitar players had moved beyond that & were playing with great flair & pernash. RR didn`t sound anything like Iommi he didn`t play like him either & the songs structures were not the same as the Sabs. This back in 1980 was a huge revelation. VH were the only other band "Out There" but EVH playing was so alienating from other players it almost appeared he was from another world. RR proved it was no fluke. Listen to VH 1st album then listen to Blizzard Of Oz theres no camparision they are both very different playing styles & song structure from each other both have something to say.
There was a survey taken in the late 80`s to find the funneist comedian ever. They only asked comedians to vote they did & overwhelmingly they voted for......Charlie Chaplin. The general public including the press couldn`t believe it i mean CC just isn`t funney. So Rowan Atkinson was dispatched to do an interview on TV to explain this strange decsion. He explained that before CC comedy was done a particular way but when CC came along he changed all that. From that moment on everybody did comedy the CC way, the problem was that we`d all grown up watching the comedians that had been inspired by CC so by the time we`d seen CC himself we`d seen it all before & therefore we didn`t find him [ CC] funny. RR was one of these types. Before him we all viewed things a certain way, he along with EVH changed our perspectives & now we all think about guitar playing in a different way.
:D 8)
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good post jt, agreed.
like when people slag off clapton, page, or hendrix (heck even evh or randy) because they're boring and they've heard it all before. They've heard it all before because those players are the ones who popularised it!
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jt - THAT is an inspired post... 100% agree.
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jt's hit the nail on the head. i realised this upon reading an article written by someone who had just bought the first Van Halen album. It must have been incredible; having nothing like it to compare it to beforehand - no benchmark.
I'm waiting for my generation's new amazing benchmark player to come along... I'm kinda banking on it being me.
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Thank you JT
I was never an Ozzy fan, but way back then when you heard RR play you knew something important happening (you didn't have to like it to recognise the fact)
I also get tired hearing people say "I saw a video once and he made a mistake, so he is sh1te." Everybody has an off night.
Having seen Sabbath 3 times in the early 80s I really feel I have the right to say that Mr Iommi is cr@p and shouldn't even be in a pub band. However in reality I know that isn't the case and have enough sense to keep my trap shut. (hint)
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You have to remember Context. It allways easy to knock something or someone years later & even easier to miss the point entirley. The secret is Context. For those of us that were there & i was RR is one of the greatest guitar players ever. Period.
Why ? Context. Every body & i mean everybody thought Ozzy would form another version of the Sabs. What he actually did was find a young inspiring guitar player who played more like Schenker than EVH but had the flair & style of the new young American guitar players. British guitar players were very very blues based, US guitar players had moved beyond that & were playing with great flair & pernash. RR didn`t sound anything like Iommi he didn`t play like him either & the songs structures were not the same as the Sabs. This back in 1980 was a huge revelation. VH were the only other band "Out There" but EVH playing was so alienating from other players it almost appeared he was from another world. RR proved it was no fluke. Listen to VH 1st album then listen to Blizzard Of Oz theres no camparision they are both very different playing styles & song structure from each other both have something to say.
Well I was born in 1978, so I wasn't there in the heat of all these new guitar developments. Does that mean that anything I say about RR will carry zero weight, agains't somebody like yourself who was lucky enough to be part of that scene?
I'd like to think I was brought up with guitar the right way, with my father exposing me to all the greatest exponents of guitar from the late 60's and early 70's. From Alvin lee of Ten years after making my eyes bleed at Woodstock to Mr Zappas Peaches. I appreciate and love guitar playing, so I know that Hendrix/Clapton/Page are the holy trinity and there legacy is incredibly important. So my question is why is RR so highly regarded? It can't just be that he was the only person playing feedback solo's or mixing classical guitar in with his lead.
Judas Priest were in existence as were Iron Maiden sporting great lead players. Uli Jon Roth and Schenker across the Scorpions and UFO are others of note. I know that Punk was in full swing but Heavy metal was still available.
Van Halen came to the fore in 1977, so had 3 years before Blizzard hit the stores. So I can't believe there where no other players out there other than EVH and RR trying new things. Maybe this was the case in the UK, but there must have been more in the US. In my time line, EVH came along in 1977 and by 1982 had re-invented a mass of guitar. He was the next inline to the guitar god throne.
By the time I came across Randy I had already heard EVH and Jake and Yngwie, so there was nothing that blew me away and I doubt that Randy's playing directly influenced any of the above players. In my opinion Randy is remembered so fondly due to his tragically short life. I'm not saying he was a bad player and I'm not saying that he hasn't inspired people. I simply don't think his legacy carries the weight people are suggesting.
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I simply don't think his legacy carries the weight people are suggesting.
I can only disagree.
There is no way to resolve this discussion but hey, that's art for ya... it's not science. :roll:
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yeah i like jake, but you can't tell me he wrote more memorable riffs and solos... not a chance. you're saying killer of giants was memorable? mr. crowley, crazy train, flying high again, over the mountain?
Mr Crowley is awesome as is Crazy Train, I`m not that keen on the other two, but Jake took those songs to another level imo. I find Jake's playing slightly darker and more eerie which I really like. This isn't a Randy bash as Randy is awesome, it just happens that Jake pleases my ears more so :).
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I can only disagree.
There is no way to resolve this discussion but hey, that's art for ya... it's not science. :roll:
Alas I fear you're right, it truly is preferential. There's no point in attacking anyones hero and everyone has the right to love whomever they dig. I just don't like to think I'm doing a diservice to people who should be respected. I just need to know why I should.
But if anyone ever said Ty Tabor was Jive, Id have to cut em!! :wink:
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In an interesting sideline to this it is possible to not like something because it gets way too much exposure.
I have always thought that Hendrix sucked, and whilst I am entitled to that opinion I know that in so many ways I am 100% wrong.
Hendrix in his day so turned guitar playing on its head that players are often said to be pre-Hendrix or post-Hendrix.
And remember that this is the age of guitar heroes with Beck, Page, Clapton, Santana, Peter Green etc
The same thing happened in tha late 70s early 80s with Eddie.
There were no shortage of great players then and we can all name a few that we prefer to Eddie, but in many ways just like Hendrix in his day Eddie cast the longest shadow.
Often in the eye of the greater public the guitarist who gets remembered maybe is remembered because of the band they were in and that the music was accessible to many.
Clapton is typical and so is Brian May (who remains my favourite)
Many guitar heroes of this kind become the ones who make non players pick up a guitar - they may not be as technically proficient but their band and the contribution they made to that band made you want to be a guitarist too.
Think of Ace Frehley and Kiss - Ace was hardly the greatest (although he was great in Kiss), but he made so many kids want to play guitar and go on to become guitar gods that you can't ever overlook his influence.
Same with Angus Young (although Angus was a bit better player than Ace)
I like Steve Vai , Becker Friedman etc etc but they were not the guys who made me play air guitar as a teenager -mthat was more May, Frehley, Schenker, Lynch, Van Halen and Rhoads (and a whole load of band players)
Edit : My main gripe with Hendrix was not that I didn't like what he did on guitar but that so many people I knew went on and on and on about him and it just irritated the hell out me to the point that i couldn't listen to him and enjoy what he did without being reminded of the people who couldn't shut up about him. That is why I started off by saying about over exposure. It has taken me a long time to get over the resistance I felt due to having it rammed down my throat. I try to retain a fairly open mind about most things other than Jazz :minigun:
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Feline:
although I don't agree with your opinion of Jimi but I can understand how people don't like his playing (I'm only a mild Hendrix fan anyway) and would never dream of arguing about it with you (or anybody else) about it. There is no reason to argue as you have not been aggressive dissmissive or generally rude (which usually the sole reason for any bickering here, it's not the opinion it's the attitude)
On the original subject of legato, I have to agree with Gingataff regarding Alan Holdsworths playing and I love the tone that he gets (I didn't realise that he used a slightly different technique.) Once again he serves the track he is playing (if that makes him a band player then I wish there where more band players.)
Though I can appreciate technique, to me it's only a means to an end and if it dosn't serve the track then it's redundant (don't start me about 99% of tapping)
Theres equally interesting players with equally impressive playing techniques (or used techniques long before the usual suspects) such as Wilco Johnson, Mick Green, Ollie Halsall, Steve Hackett, Stanley Jordan never get mentioned simply because theyre not into speed for the sake of it (or simply in big name bands)
Rob...
In the bass area Tony Levin (also Stanley Clarke & Mick Karn) whom we all forget about
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Please ignore the start of my previous message as it looks like I'm bitching @ Jonathan, this was not intended (but to illustrate)
The proxy I'm working through prevents me from posting or editing messages (I have to use the quote button to actually post a message :roll: till I find a work around)
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You have to remember Context. It allways easy to knock something or someone years later & even easier to miss the point entirley. The secret is Context. For those of us that were there & i was RR is one of the greatest guitar players ever. Period.
Why ? Context. Every body & i mean everybody thought Ozzy would form another version of the Sabs. What he actually did was find a young inspiring guitar player who played more like Schenker than EVH but had the flair & style of the new young American guitar players. British guitar players were very very blues based, US guitar players had moved beyond that & were playing with great flair & pernash. RR didn`t sound anything like Iommi he didn`t play like him either & the songs structures were not the same as the Sabs. This back in 1980 was a huge revelation. VH were the only other band "Out There" but EVH playing was so alienating from other players it almost appeared he was from another world. RR proved it was no fluke. Listen to VH 1st album then listen to Blizzard Of Oz theres no camparision they are both very different playing styles & song structure from each other both have something to say.
Well I was born in 1978, so I wasn't there in the heat of all these new guitar developments. Does that mean that anything I say about RR will carry zero weight, agains't somebody like yourself who was lucky enough to be part of that scene?
I'd like to think I was brought up with guitar the right way, with my father exposing me to all the greatest exponents of guitar from the late 60's and early 70's. From Alvin lee of Ten years after making my eyes bleed at Woodstock to Mr Zappas Peaches. I appreciate and love guitar playing, so I know that Hendrix/Clapton/Page are the holy trinity and there legacy is incredibly important. So my question is why is RR so highly regarded? It can't just be that he was the only person playing feedback solo's or mixing classical guitar in with his lead.
Judas Priest were in existence as were Iron Maiden sporting great lead players. Uli Jon Roth and Schenker across the Scorpions and UFO are others of note. I know that Punk was in full swing but Heavy metal was still available.
Van Halen came to the fore in 1977, so had 3 years before Blizzard hit the stores. So I can't believe there where no other players out there other than EVH and RR trying new things. Maybe this was the case in the UK, but there must have been more in the US. In my time line, EVH came along in 1977 and by 1982 had re-invented a mass of guitar. He was the next inline to the guitar god throne.
By the time I came across Randy I had already heard EVH and Jake and Yngwie, so there was nothing that blew me away and I doubt that Randy's playing directly influenced any of the above players. In my opinion Randy is remembered so fondly due to his tragically short life. I'm not saying he was a bad player and I'm not saying that he hasn't inspired people. I simply don't think his legacy carries the weight people are suggesting.
for one, Randy was one of the main reasons why Ozzy became one of the greatest bands of all time. Many people thought ozzy would suck without sabbath and even ozzy contributes his new bands success to randy. surely, this contributes to his legacy? think about it, many of the greatest guitarists are great because their band that they started was great.
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I think as Afghan Dave pointed out, this is not something you can resolve as long as preference and opinion are involved. I can give Randy credit for helping in Ozzy's rebirth, but again Ozzy's other guitarists have helped him sustain and further increase his fame over the last 25 years.
If Randy is the man that got a guitar in your hands, then that makes him an inspirational talent. The best part now is finding all the other players that feed that inspiration and fuel you to the next level. 8)
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Edit : My main gripe with Hendrix was not that I didn't like what he did on guitar but that so many people I knew went on and on and on about him and it just irritated the hell out me to the point that i couldn't listen to him and enjoy what he did without being reminded of the people who couldn't shut up about him. That is why I started off by saying about over exposure. It has taken me a long time to get over the resistance I felt due to having it rammed down my throat.
Even though I love Hendrix, I can totally relate to that. I have a friend who literally thinks Jimmy Page is one of the most innovative, and therefore best, guitarists for the sole reason that he used a violin bow and a doubleneck. Try telling him that you think there were better guitarists and he'd say "yeah better technically, but they didn't think of using a violin bow!" I really like Led Zeppelin, but the fact that they "did it first" doesn't stop me from liking Whitesnake better.
Another thing that bugs me is when people say "Hendrix wasn't very technical, but he could play with feeling" and "Yngwie is very technical, but he can't play with feeling". Listen when Yngwie actually slows down. The man CAN play with feeling, and does it phenomenally. Likewise, I think Hendrix was very technical. (Shawn Lane says he is. Who am I to say Shawn Lane is wrong about technique?)
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:D 1st off just for the record RR isn`t my guitar hero as such i was mearly pointing out that much of what RR inspired others & has been copied by even more.
Yes you are entitled to your opinion as Johnathon @ feline has said i to am not a Hendrix fan but theres no way you could convince me that he wasn`t one of the most important or inspirational guitarists of all time because the evidence is just overwhelming agaisnt. I only remind you that the context was what was important to RR legacy. As i said Ozzy was a big name here in the UK but America was almost a different world. Like most of the older players here i was raised on Clapton, Page, & Beck [ The Holy Trinity to coin a phrase] with honuorable mentions to Peter Green [who i prefered] George Harrison, Hendrix, Townsend. EVH was so far left feild from all these heavy Blues influenced players that he seemed unreal. Schenker [ who is arguably my favourite guitar player] was a breath of fresh air, but it was RR who "Woke" us all up to the new order & yes thats probably because he was playing with Ozzy.
I saw Ozzy with Jake who was a great player but could never write the tunes, Brad Gillis who should`ve been asked to stay & Zakk. The simple truth is without RR you probably wouldn`t have had any off `em.
And my point about "Band Players" was that you used it in a very Condesending manner as if to denigrate a player to being of a 2nd class nature because he wasn`t an instrumentalist ie Satriani, Vai etc. Even if this wasn`t your intention its how it came across i`m afraid. Like Feline its these "Band Players" that have me playing air guitar then & now !
:D 8)
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Well first off, I never made any comment about 'Band Players', I always thought that all guitar players are band players but there we go. I actually prefer non-instrumentalists, as they have to cram all their joy into 8 bars. Thats the kinda focus that creates great things. 8)
I think when you mentioned that Ozzy was reborn with Randy, what he achieved started to sink in. Essentially providing Ozzy with a new vehicle, which he could then go onto conquer the world with over the last 2 decades. Funnily enough I was reading on the Wiki, (mainly lies I know.) that RR had disliked Page for his sloppy playing and was not a fan of Hendrix. It seems that we all have our loves and hates.
I have just one minor gripe Bark at the Moon, Rock N Roll Rebel, Shot in the Dark. How are none of those great songs?? :D
Apologies for my trinity being slightly different, I do like Beck but had to find him myself. For some reason Pa never got on with him. I think of the golden age players, he's probably the most interesting today.
Cheers Paul
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Edit : My main gripe with Hendrix was not that I didn't like what he did on guitar but that so many people I knew went on and on and on about him and it just irritated the hell out me to the point that i couldn't listen to him and enjoy what he did without being reminded of the people who couldn't shut up about him. That is why I started off by saying about over exposure. It has taken me a long time to get over the resistance I felt due to having it rammed down my throat. I try to retain a fairly open mind about most things other than Jazz :minigun:
same thing happened me with football... my dad and my two uni flatmates were fanatics... put me off it. I actually used to like football... :lol: I understand where you're coming from.
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:D 3 songs off of what 3 albums, Oh & by the way just for the record Shot in the Dark was written by the bass player !
Again your right we all have different "Holy Trinitys" as it were. As i said It was merly a comment about Context & bearing in mind the era that players occupie at the time they do there thing.
Again like you i prefer band players, there far more fun to listen to !
:D 8)
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Another case solved thanks to teamwork and guitar playing! :twisted:
Out of kindness I'll give Randy 'Crazy Train' as his only good song and that's only for the opening riff! Pretty poor show for 2 albums I'd say :wink:
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Wonder if we will ever get this thread back on topic.
I feel that it has been more interesting for being off the subject, but any takers for the original question?
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:Like most of the older players here i was raised on Clapton, Page, & Beck [ The Holy Trinity to coin a phrase] with honuorable mentions to Peter Green [who i prefered] George Harrison, Hendrix, Townsend.
Don't forget Ritchie Blackmore!! When I first got into rock music in the late '70s and early '80s, Blackmore was consistently coming top of the polls year after year in Sounds and Melody Maker (yes, all the music papers had polls in those days :roll: ).
Coming back to the topic of players who revolutionised guitar playing - in particular Van Halen - for all the huge influence EVH had on guitarists in the States from '78 onwards, I don't remember most fans in the UK taking much notice at all for the first few albums. Maybe it was just my circle of friends, but we didn't get into American bands in general until later in the 80s - they were regarded as a bit flash and poncey. We were all much more into British and European bands (oh and Rush, but they're not American either).
I'd say there was a lot more fuss made in the UK about the Blizzard of Ozz album than any of the early Van Halen. Ozzy hadn't become a huge US star yet and it was essentially a British band (albeit one with American and Australian members). We used to play the Crazy Train 7" single (I still have it somewhere) over and over again in our little 6th-form common room. 1980 was an awesome year, because not only did Ozzy have a great new band, but Sabbath came back with the mighty Heaven and Hell.
I saw Ozzy with Jake who was a great player but could never write the tunes, Brad Gillis who should`ve been asked to stay & Zakk.
I think Gillis only toured with Ozzy on the understanding that he was always intending to return to Night Ranger (or Ranger as it was at the time). He was excellent though, Talk Of The Devil is still my favourite Ozzy album.
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Another case solved thanks to teamwork and guitar playing! :twisted:
Out of kindness I'll give Randy 'Crazy Train' as his only good song and that's only for the opening riff! Pretty poor show for 2 albums I'd say :wink:
i will kill you.
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I agree with what has been said about Hendrix in this case.
Hendrix was imo a more influential, and more deserving of recognition than Randy.
That being said though, he's another enormously overrated player - His songs were superb, but his playing wouldn't be considered particularly special today. Ofcourse at the time it was "Revolutionary", but that kind of argument is extremely weak in my eyes, because the fact that he did what he did, doesn't mean that if he didn't do what he did, nobody else would do what he did - If you see what I mean.
Shawn Lane is ofcourse by all means one of the greatest guitarists that have ever lived, and ofcourse, if he says Hendrix was technical, I'm neither one to agree with him, but that being said, he's weighted as one of the best guitarists of all time, but frankly, I disagree - Perhaps he's a brilliant song writer, but not the best, and perhaps he's a great guitarist, but then again, he's not the best.
He's simply the best at being Hendrix.
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:D DOH !!
How could i forget Blackmore :roll: or Angus or May hey there you go another "Holy Trinity" :D
:D 8)
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i will kill you.
I smell a 'head cuttin'' coming on. 8) When i'm in the US next we can battle it out, if you win I might give you Dee as well :twisted:
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i will kill you.
I smell a 'head cuttin'' coming on. 8) When i'm in the US next we can battle it out, if you win I might give you Dee as well :twisted:
boomshakalaka.
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The end.