Bare Knuckle Pickups Forum

Forum Ringside => Pickups => Topic started by: _tom_ on August 21, 2005, 08:34:50 PM

Title: disconnecting tone pot?
Post by: _tom_ on August 21, 2005, 08:34:50 PM
Sometimes (it might just be my setup though?) my neck Mule sounds muddy/not alot of defenition, doesnt seem as "crunchy" or open as the bridge Mule sometimes. I'm wondering if disconnecting the tone pot will do anything to help? If so how would I do that? I think they must wire Epis different to most, because on the bridge pots, the pickup is connected to the bridge Tone pot instead of the Volume, and the neck one is wired to the neck Volume  :? It looks like something is being grounded onto the back of the neck Tone, so I guess I dont wanna remove that?

Any helps great thanks, it seems like its worth a try!
Title: disconnecting tone pot?
Post by: MDV on August 21, 2005, 10:12:15 PM
You can ground it on the vol. Just look up a single volume diagram and rewire accordingly.
Title: disconnecting tone pot?
Post by: PhilKing on August 21, 2005, 11:21:03 PM
You will get a more open and brighter sound without the tone pot.  However there are many ways of wiring in the tone.  The Gibson Les Paul wiring puts the pickup to the volume and then run the capacitor across to the tone.  I have noticed on some cheaper copies that they are only using one capacitor for both pickups.

You can also open the sound up by using a 250k pot for the tone.
Title: disconnecting tone pot?
Post by: Ratrod on August 22, 2005, 12:10:57 PM
I believe there are pots available that allow you to take it out of the circuit. Click past the notch and it's out. Just like old car radio's. I think Fender uses this on some of their guitars.
Title: disconnecting tone pot?
Post by: HJM on August 22, 2005, 01:28:03 PM
You can make these pots - it's a Gerald Weber design trick...

bend back the small tabs on the pot case, the bottom of the pot comes away, figure out which ind of the carbon track you want to be off and use a knife to scr@pe the conductive material off so that the wiper has no contact.

Save your £££££
Title: disconnecting tone pot?
Post by: _tom_ on August 22, 2005, 05:18:14 PM
Quote from: HJM
You can make these pots - it's a Gerald Weber design trick...

bend back the small tabs on the pot case, the bottom of the pot comes away, figure out which ind of the carbon track you want to be off and use a knife to scr@pe the conductive material off so that the wiper has no contact.

Save your £££££


I'm confused... :lol: Can't I just disconnect all the wires, then if I dont like it, reconnect right? I'm just confused by Epiphones way of wiring it really  :?
Title: disconnecting tone pot?
Post by: HJM on August 22, 2005, 05:55:34 PM
Sorry, we all started talking about No load tone pots, they switch themselves out of circuit on 10...

Is the circuit sharing a capacitor?

I'd rewire the lot, new caps pots and wire, it may make all the difference!
Title: disconnecting tone pot?
Post by: _tom_ on August 22, 2005, 06:54:25 PM
Quote from: HJM
Sorry, we all started talking about No load tone pots, they switch themselves out of circuit on 10...

Is the circuit sharing a capacitor?

I'd rewire the lot, new caps pots and wire, it may make all the difference!


yeah I'm planning on redoing all the electrics. What do you lot think to getting the "Gibson Electrics Pack" or something from www.axesrus.co.uk ?
Title: disconnecting tone pot?
Post by: HJM on August 23, 2005, 07:36:18 AM
Should be fine - or call Tim, he stocks everything you need, including proper switchcraft Gibson switches.
Title: disconnecting tone pot?
Post by: _tom_ on August 23, 2005, 12:53:51 PM
Quote from: HJM
Should be fine - or call Tim, he stocks everything you need, including proper switchcraft Gibson switches.


Cheers! Does Tim do whole kit things, with wire, caps etc coz I'd like to redo it all if possible..
Title: disconnecting tone pot?
Post by: _tom_ on August 24, 2005, 04:34:31 PM
Quote from: PhilKing
You will get a more open and brighter sound without the tone pot.  However there are many ways of wiring in the tone.  The Gibson Les Paul wiring puts the pickup to the volume and then run the capacitor across to the tone.  I have noticed on some cheaper copies that they are only using one capacitor for both pickups.

You can also open the sound up by using a 250k pot for the tone.


I thought a higher "k" pot openeed it up more, Ie I'd need a 1 meg pot? I think my Epi was wired with just one cap for the tone, like you were saying. I disconnected it all totally earlier, it sounded almost the same to me  :(  I dont know why its sounding so muddy.. The bridge one sounds nice and defined/open, but the neck one seems "sludgy" and all the notes blur into each other if you know what I mean, no defenition..then again that may just be the nature of all neck humbuckers? I'm not quite getting the slash neck tone I want!
Title: disconnecting tone pot?
Post by: HJM on August 24, 2005, 04:42:25 PM
You're thinking of the volume pot!
Title: disconnecting tone pot?
Post by: _tom_ on August 24, 2005, 05:00:49 PM
ohh, so its the opposite for a tone pot? Will different cap values give a brighter/clearer sound aswell? I'm all open to ideas, as wiring/replacing a doesnt seem to take much skill, if I can do it anyway :lol:
Title: disconnecting tone pot?
Post by: PhilKing on August 24, 2005, 06:21:09 PM
Fitting a .022mfd would let more treble through than the normal .047, but if you have tried it without a capacitor, then there is something else causing it.  The tone at the neck is different to the tone at the bridge because of the string movement being greater, so there is more output from the pickups.  

What settings have you got on your amp? If the bass is at 10 this might also be a problem, as the neck will push out more bass than the bridge.

A couple of other things you might want to check are that the pickups are the right way round (the red dot is the bridge, if the dot is not there, then the higher DC is the bridge).  If this is the case, then try lowering the neck pickup a bit.  I have a neck mule and can get good definition out of it.
Title: Re: disconnecting tone pot?
Post by: Steve-Mr Pig 2U on August 24, 2005, 06:49:59 PM
Quote from: _tom_
Sometimes (it might just be my setup though?) my neck Mule sounds muddy/not alot of defenition, doesnt seem as "crunchy" or open as the bridge Mule sometimes. I'm wondering if disconnecting the tone pot will do anything to help? If so how would I do that? I think they must wire Epis different to most, because on the bridge pots, the pickup is connected to the bridge Tone pot instead of the Volume, and the neck one is wired to the neck Volume  :? It looks like something is being grounded onto the back of the neck Tone, so I guess I dont wanna remove that?

Any helps great thanks, it seems like its worth a try!


The neck Mule shouldn't sound muddy at all, itís the cleanest humbucker we do. Check your pickup heights and all of your connections. Epi's have very poor quality electronics and pots (that is their only downfall, other than that they are very good guitars!) so it maybe a problem with that. I would suggest re wiring the guitar, It wont cost too much and isn't too difficult to do.
Title: disconnecting tone pot?
Post by: _tom_ on August 24, 2005, 06:51:57 PM
Quote from: PhilKing
Fitting a .022mfd would let more treble through than the normal .047, but if you have tried it without a capacitor, then there is something else causing it.  The tone at the neck is different to the tone at the bridge because of the string movement being greater, so there is more output from the pickups.  

What settings have you got on your amp? If the bass is at 10 this might also be a problem, as the neck will push out more bass than the bridge.

A couple of other things you might want to check are that the pickups are the right way round (the red dot is the bridge, if the dot is not there, then the higher DC is the bridge).  If this is the case, then try lowering the neck pickup a bit.  I have a neck mule and can get good definition out of it.


hmm ok.. the tone pot for the neck pickup has NOTHING attatched to it, so I guess its letting the "max" amount of treble through? I dont use loads of bass on my amp/pedals as I hate muddyness! I double checked the way I put my pickups in, the one with the red dot is definately in the bridge bit! Also, the pickup is flush with the surround so I dont think its overly high or anything but I might try lowering it some more  :?  This is really frustrating as no one else seems to have had this problem with their neck Mules..
Title: disconnecting tone pot?
Post by: PhilKing on August 24, 2005, 07:06:30 PM
I think we need Tim at this point.  You have tried all the things I can think of.  Perhaps Tim can shed some light on this.
Title: disconnecting tone pot?
Post by: Steve-Mr Pig 2U on August 24, 2005, 07:11:32 PM
Quote from: _tom_

hmm ok.. the tone pot for the neck pickup has NOTHING attatched to it, so I guess its letting the "max" amount of treble through? I dont use loads of bass on my amp/pedals as I hate muddyness! I double checked the way I put my pickups in, the one with the red dot is definately in the bridge bit! Also, the pickup is flush with the surround so I dont think its overly high or anything but I might try lowering it some more  :?  This is really frustrating as no one else seems to have had this problem with their neck Mules..


Have you tried raising the hight of the neck? Hand wound pickups are very hight sensitive, thats the only thing I can think of.
Title: disconnecting tone pot?
Post by: _tom_ on August 24, 2005, 07:11:38 PM
yep, that would be a good idea  :lol:  maybe the wood in my guitar isnt suited to a neck mule for whatever reason  :? I'm reluctant to send it back for a different model or whatever because I only just got the new covers on! I guess it could be my amp still though, it can be pretty bassy/muddy at times.
Title: disconnecting tone pot?
Post by: Steve-Mr Pig 2U on August 24, 2005, 07:15:10 PM
Quote from: _tom_
yep, that would be a good idea  :lol:  maybe the wood in my guitar isnt suited to a neck mule for whatever reason  :? I'm reluctant to send it back for a different model or whatever because I only just got the new covers on!


Didn't you like it before you got it covered? read my post above your last. The wood shouldn't be causing a problem.
Title: disconnecting tone pot?
Post by: _tom_ on August 24, 2005, 07:17:12 PM
ohh they were allready covered, I just got the black ones put on instead of gold. oh and surely wouldnt raising it make it more muddy?
Title: disconnecting tone pot?
Post by: HJM on August 24, 2005, 08:58:45 PM
usually, but hang on - has it ever sounded right???


Check you've got them in the right way too.....bridge in the neck position won't help!
Title: disconnecting tone pot?
Post by: _tom_ on August 24, 2005, 09:16:10 PM
Quote from: HJM
usually, but hang on - has it ever sounded right???


Check you've got them in the right way too.....bridge in the neck position won't help!


hahah to be honest I really cant remember! I definately put the one with the red dot label thing in the bridge position and the other in the neck obviously..
Title: disconnecting tone pot?
Post by: Steve-Mr Pig 2U on August 24, 2005, 09:30:18 PM
I can remember you saying that you liked the neck more than the bridge last time! Play around with the hight of the pickups a bit and if that doesnt work it would be worth changing the electronics in your guitar.
Title: disconnecting tone pot?
Post by: HJM on August 24, 2005, 09:35:10 PM
I've had electronics start to sound muddy after a few pickup swaps, they get overheated I guess!
Title: disconnecting tone pot?
Post by: _tom_ on August 24, 2005, 09:37:34 PM
Quote from: HJM
I've had electronics start to sound muddy after a few pickup swaps, they get overheated I guess!


ahha! Looks like an excuse to swap out the Epiphone electrics for something better! Oh yeah, I remember that thread Steve haha! I think I changed my mind but who knows, I'm weird/picky when it comes to tone as you can probably tell  :lol: I have another question suprise suprise...is there any difference in quality between the pots that are sold by BKP, and the ones in the official Gibson "pack"?

cheers!
Title: disconnecting tone pot?
Post by: HJM on August 24, 2005, 09:47:25 PM
I bet they're the same CTS pots, and switchcraft switches, only cheaper from BKP!
Title: disconnecting tone pot?
Post by: PhilKing on August 25, 2005, 03:56:24 AM
There is the old bad joint possibility too!  Did you check that there is no loss across the joint?  I know that this is clutching at straws almost,  but you could try swapping the volume pots over, or even just soldering the neck pickup straight to a jack socket.  You would soon know if there was a problem with the pickup or the electronics then.
Title: disconnecting tone pot?
Post by: _tom_ on August 25, 2005, 09:01:33 AM
Quote from: PhilKing
There is the old bad joint possibility too!  Did you check that there is no loss across the joint?  I know that this is clutching at straws almost,  but you could try swapping the volume pots over, or even just soldering the neck pickup straight to a jack socket.  You would soon know if there was a problem with the pickup or the electronics then.


soldering the neck pickup to a jack socket - How will I do that?

cheers!
Title: disconnecting tone pot?
Post by: PhilKing on August 25, 2005, 12:43:30 PM
Disconnect the pickup from the pot first, then for 4 core wiring, just take the red to the tip tab and the black & screen to the centre tab.  Make sure the green and white are soldered together.

For 2 core, the centre wire goes to the tip tab and the screen to the centre tab.

if you don't have a spare jack socket, you can do it with either a lead with a jack at one end, and just wire at the other (when you are doing a lot this is the quickest way, I have one with aligator clips to help me check pickups before I put them in), or you can tape the wires to the jack itself (the screen goes to the barrel and the live to the tip).

This will bypass all the electronics in the guitar.
Title: disconnecting tone pot?
Post by: _tom_ on August 25, 2005, 01:22:50 PM
^I'll take the jack socket outta my old guitar. Sorry, which tab on the jack socket is which, tip and barrel or whatever?

thanks a lot!
Title: disconnecting tone pot?
Post by: PhilKing on August 25, 2005, 05:06:07 PM
In your old guitar the screen will go to the barrel, and the center to the tip.  If it is a metal jack, the tip is the one attached to the long arm and the barrel is the part the contains the nut and thread.
Title: disconnecting tone pot?
Post by: _tom_ on August 25, 2005, 05:08:46 PM
oh, do you mean the actual jack bit, the "male" bit, or the "female" jack socket, which you normally plug a lead into?
Title: disconnecting tone pot?
Post by: PhilKing on August 25, 2005, 05:10:20 PM
The female socket.
Title: disconnecting tone pot?
Post by: _tom_ on August 25, 2005, 07:01:45 PM
ahh right. cheers, I'll probably try it tomorrow if I have nothing better to do