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Author Topic: Question re. calibrated sets....  (Read 2814 times)

Twinfan

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Question re. calibrated sets....
« on: January 01, 2008, 12:54:26 PM »
OK, so I have a calibrated Riff Raff set in one of my SGs.  Both neck and bridge pickups are set around 2mm from the strings and the sound is completely balanced in volume.  Just what I'd expect.

I also have a calibrated set of Mules in a Les Paul.  To get a balance of volume between the pickups, I need to have the bridge at 2mm and the neck at 3mm.

Now this surprises me as all other calibrated sets of pickups I own are spot on at the same distance for both neck and bridge.  This is the only guitar that has a mis-match of pickup heights and even now the bridge is not perfect, it still sounds a bit thin.  The neck, however, is nice and full and sounds brilliant.  The neck reads 7.02ohms and the bridge reads 7.82 ohms so I have them installed the right way round.  I've checked the soldering, and all appears to be good.

Have I got lucky previously?  Do I have a freak set of BKPs that don't match properly?  Or can the guitar itself have an affect on the "calibration"???

Miracle Man

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Question re. calibrated sets....
« Reply #1 on: January 01, 2008, 01:46:55 PM »
I also have a calibrated set of mules in a Gibson SG and I noticed the same thing. The bridge pickup is at about 2mm and the neck at 5-6mm :?
That way the sound is balanced but it was the same with the Classic 57's that used to be in the guitar.

Philly Q

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Question re. calibrated sets....
« Reply #2 on: January 01, 2008, 02:13:23 PM »
I reckon the guitar itself has to play a part - if it's a lively, resonant guitar that'll be most noticeable in the neck position and less so at the bridge where the strings don't move so much.  That has to transfer through the pickups somehow or other.

And as we all know, BKPs are individually handwound, they're not identical mass-produced items.  So, no two guitars are the same and no two BKPs are the same, vive la difference!  :)

I must admit, though, this fuels my nagging doubt that a bridge Mule wouldn't be quite hot enough for my tastes.
BKPs I've Got:  RR, BKP-91, ITs, VHII, CS set, Emeralds
BKPs I Had:  RY+Abraxas, Crawlers, BD+SM

Twinfan

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Question re. calibrated sets....
« Reply #3 on: January 01, 2008, 03:30:44 PM »
Maybe that's what it is then.  This is a lively, resonant guitar so that's why I was thinking the neck will sound much more full where the string resonance can REALLY kick in.

I'll have another play with the pickup heights, but I may need to get a Black Dog for the bridge....

Henk

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Question re. calibrated sets....
« Reply #4 on: January 01, 2008, 03:46:51 PM »
I have had 2 original gibson PAF sets and played several more and all of these were like that more or less, well exept one set that were in a semi which were well balanced.

My bridge mule is less hot when compared to the neck also, allthough i wanted it that way initially and i even asked Tim to overwind the neck. Tim said the 'normal' set would have a hot enough neck pickup allready, so i guess Tim actually makes the Mules set as true PAF replicas as he knows how. Kind of stupid of me to persume someone who makes pickups would ignore PAF's being differently balanced then a modern set, but anyway, i probably just needed to be sure i got them the way i knew they should be in my way of thinking about pickups that is.

Same thing with the Gibson '57 PAF reissues, they did offer an overwound 'bridge' version though, the classic +.

Ive read somewhere that overwinding a pickup 5% increases the lows and mids output by 5%, but decreases the highs by 5%. The oposite happens when underwinding, well as an approximate offcourse. I personally think that would not be a good thing with the mules since i allready think the bridge could do with a bit of extra highs, still that also depends on the guitar etc.

Also, kind of nice to be doing anyway, in the early 80's alot of the hardrock guitarists set up their bridge paf way up against the strings to get the that specific 80's hardrock sound, i seem to hear that also in some of AC/DC's earliest records, meaning the very heavy stringload.

Later, i think in the mid 80's high output pickups took over quickly and a more modern balance was used more often, still higher gainlevels were possible with the more modern amp lines and so on....

Well at least this is how i have allways thought it was back then.
Mules in '76 Gibson custom with maple neck.

Twinfan

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Question re. calibrated sets....
« Reply #5 on: January 01, 2008, 04:00:48 PM »
I agree with you Henk, but with the DC resistance values of my pickups and the fact they are a calibrated set, I would have expected them to be closer in heights and more of a match.  As you know, old PAFs were the same pickup in both neck and bridge so you'd expect there to be a big difference in heights in that case.

All my other guitars don't have this problem so it's a little strange.  I think it must be to do with his guitar.

Philly Q

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Question re. calibrated sets....
« Reply #6 on: January 01, 2008, 04:54:04 PM »
Dave, didn't you get an AIV Stormy Monday neck to go with a Mule bridge in one of your other LPs?  

How did that work out, and how does it compare with the Mule calibrated set?

I'm thinking a getting a Mule set for my Edwards Potbelly, but maybe then taking the BD/SM combo out of my white V so I can have a Mule/SM set and a BD/Mule set.  But then I'm not sure where to put each set  :roll: .
BKPs I've Got:  RR, BKP-91, ITs, VHII, CS set, Emeralds
BKPs I Had:  RY+Abraxas, Crawlers, BD+SM

Ratrod

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Question re. calibrated sets....
« Reply #7 on: January 01, 2008, 04:59:22 PM »
In some cases, the place where the neck pickup sits is the most resonant part of the guitar.
BKP user since 2004: early 7K Blackguard 50

Twinfan

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Question re. calibrated sets....
« Reply #8 on: January 01, 2008, 05:19:39 PM »
Quote from: Philly Q
Dave, didn't you get an AIV Stormy Monday neck to go with a Mule bridge in one of your other LPs?  

How did that work out, and how does it compare with the Mule calibrated set?


That particular guitar, my Tokai Relic, is my #1 guitar for my blues band and it's great.  The AIV SM is subtly less fat than a Mule neck pickup, a bit more open and single coil like.  The Mule neck is fuller with a bit more mids and bass.  I really like the AIV SM for quieter blues tones, and you can still pile on the gain for a lovely singing lead tone.  It pairs really well with the bridge Mule and it's a combo I'd say is my perfect Les Paul setup.

For you Phil, knowing your preference for a fatter neck tone, you'd be better off with a Mule neck if you're going for AIV magnets.  The AII SM you have already will sound a bit fatter than my AIV, with less highs too I would guess?

Personally, I'd put the BD/Mule in the Potbelly and the Mule/SM in the V.  Vs have a nice voice which to my ears work well with lower powered pickups so it can shine through.  I'd worry about a BD in an all mahogany guitar as it might sound a bit too fat?

The Potbelly would be a Jimmy Page-esque rocker with a similar spec to his favoured Les Paul with the overwound bridge pickup  :D

Philly Q

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Question re. calibrated sets....
« Reply #9 on: January 01, 2008, 05:45:36 PM »
Quote from: Twinfan
For you Phil, knowing your preference for a fatter neck tone, you'd be better off with a Mule neck if you're going for AIV magnets.  The AII SM you have already will sound a bit fatter than my AIV, with less highs too I would guess?

Funnily enough, both the AII SM and BD sound fairly bright in my V.  Or at least, the BD doesn't sound as dark as I was expecting.  The V's very light, only just over 6lb, and that probably plays a part - it's acoustically loud and resonant, but the amplified tone doesn't have much depth somehow.

Quote from: Twinfan
Personally, I'd put the BD/Mule in the Potbelly and the Mule/SM in the V.  Vs have a nice voice which to my ears work well with lower powered pickups so it can shine through.  I'd worry about a BD in an all mahogany guitar as it might sound a bit too fat?

Cheers Dave, I agree with your suggestions, I do like a fatter neck tone and I also like a contrast between the neck and bridge pickups.  I'm sure the BD/Mule would be great in the Potbelly and in the V, I think the slightly brighter(?) Mule would sound more "different" from the SM than the BD does.  

If that doesn't work, I may go in another direction and get the V breathing fire with a set of PKs (I really ought to have one HM guitar!   :twisted: :lol: ).
BKPs I've Got:  RR, BKP-91, ITs, VHII, CS set, Emeralds
BKPs I Had:  RY+Abraxas, Crawlers, BD+SM

OD-Black_Fire

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Question re. calibrated sets....
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2008, 09:01:41 PM »
When a pickup is in the neck position it picks up a much wider range of frequencies and sounds much bigger than in the bridge position. This big sound can almost always mistaken for volume. You could have been hearing the difference in "bigness."

Henk

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Question re. calibrated sets....
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2008, 09:58:39 AM »
Quote from: Twinfan
I agree with you Henk, but with the DC resistance values of my pickups and the fact they are a calibrated set, I would have expected them to be closer in heights and more of a match.  As you know, old PAFs were the same pickup in both neck and bridge so you'd expect there to be a big difference in heights in that case.

All my other guitars don't have this problem so it's a little strange.  I think it must be to do with his guitar.


Ok, but i think when voicing the pickups Tim did take this into account, like OD_Blackfire said it is also part due to the sensitivity of the mules how much is actually translated to output. Actually, when i only consider mids and highs they do match up quite well, its the huge sound of the low end harmonics kicking in on the neck position that throws off the balance a bit in my custom at least. I wonder if the same thing would occur with a less resonant guitar. Maybe, if i would put the mules in my standard, which has much more high harmonics, they would sound better balanced aswell.
Mules in '76 Gibson custom with maple neck.

Twinfan

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Question re. calibrated sets....
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2008, 04:26:21 PM »
Quote from: OD-Black_Fire
When a pickup is in the neck position it picks up a much wider range of frequencies and sounds much bigger than in the bridge position. This big sound can almost always mistaken for volume. You could have been hearing the difference in "bigness."


True, but my other guitars are OK so I know the difference  ;)