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Author Topic: is it safe to disconnect a feedback loop?  (Read 7959 times)

the_bleeding

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is it safe to disconnect a feedback loop?
« on: July 17, 2008, 06:38:36 AM »
Well? im in the middle of drawing up plans for a homebrew amp (bassman clone) and i was wondering if its safe to add a switch that will disconnect the feedback loop.
my maxon OD 808 really DOES make poop sound good

jpfamps

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Re: is it safe to disconnect a feedback loop?
« Reply #1 on: July 17, 2008, 01:23:06 PM »
Yes it's perfectly safe to disconnect the feedback loop. You will notice an increase in gain, and will need less signal to drive the power amp into clipping. Also the presence control will no longer have any effect.

We once built a two channel head with a Blackface Bassman pre-amp and a Tweed Bassman pre-amp. There was a rotary switch to vary the amount of feedback so that the both Tweed (less -ve feedback) and Blackface circuits could be simulated as well as turning the feed back off. This was very instructive. Obviously as you vary the feedback resistor value the effect of the presence control varies too.

Too much feedback and the amp sounds quite dull (and you may experience stability issues), not enough feedback and the bass becomes very flappy due to reduced speaker damping. I suspect you can get away with less -ve feedback in the Tweed Bassman because you have four speakers wired in parallel which improves damping.


HTH AMPS

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Re: is it safe to disconnect a feedback loop?
« Reply #2 on: July 17, 2008, 01:59:17 PM »
jpf, have you tried messing around with the PI values when you run an amp with no NFB? - I messed round with this and found it tightened up the bass end alot.

jpfamps

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Re: is it safe to disconnect a feedback loop?
« Reply #3 on: July 17, 2008, 08:29:29 PM »
OK the short answer is yes....

Essentially the problem with bass in the power amp is blocking distortion. Either the PI or the power valves will block when they are driven into grid conduction. When this happens the coupling capacitors from the previous stage charge up (and in a cathode bias amp the cathode resistor bypass capacitor also charges up). When the signal excursion returns back to a "non-blocking level" the coupling capacitors need to discharge substantially before signal can pass again, which as you can imagine sounds terrible!

By changing the values in the PI you can effect the time constant looking into the PI, through which the coupling cap into the PI must discharge, and also the output impedance through which the coupling caps to the power grids must discharge. The impedance looking into the PI is very high due to the grid resistor being boot strapped to the tail resistor. This is even higher in an amp with negative feedback, so blocking into the PI is very much to be avoided as you will invariably have a very large time constant here. Varying the grid resistors and coupling cap into the PI will affect the time constant and hence recovery from blocking. Reducing the plate load resistors will not only reduce the gain into the power valve grids, which again will reduce the tendency to block, but also will reduce the discharge time constant so recovery from blocking should be quicker. Fender used this approach as well as reducing grid leak resistor size in their silverface amps — Fender amps, much as I love them, are notorious for blocking.

Blocking can be avoided altogether by DC coupling the offending stages thus eliminating the coupling caps. This is now what we do, and it works very well.

The PI can be DC coupled directly of the plate of the preceding stage (obviously this is now a fixed bias PI). This approach is used in several hi-fi amps from the 50s, however you have to be fairly careful about choosing the DC operating point. An other approach is to use a fixed bias cathode follower to drive the PI, which what we've done with good results. This circuit is used by Hiwatt in there 400 W slave amps. If you have a spare 1/2 valve this is quite easy to implement.

In a fixed bias amp you can use a cathode follower tied to a negative rail DC coupled to the grids of the power valves a la Ampeg SVT. Again this works very well but might be hard to implement in a existing design as it requires a significantly more negative bias voltage than is found in most amps. Also if you do this I would recommend you use a 12AU7 driver as not only will it have a very low output impedance it also has the best cathode/heater voltage compliance. Unfortunately it will also draw quite a lot of current which might drag down the B+ to the pre-amp. Now you could do this with MOSFETs......

In a cathode biased amp, DC coupling can be done but is hard. Another alternative is to place zener diodes + regular diodes across the power valve grids reduce the amount the cathode bypass cap charges up. I've not tried this so can't comment on its efficaiousness.

I suspect you are seeing earlier blocking in a non -ve feedback amp as the gain into the power amp is not being tamed by the feedback, although in theory the negative feedback will make blocking worse when it happens.

Hope you've managed to plough through this OK.



indysmith

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Re: is it safe to disconnect a feedback loop?
« Reply #4 on: July 17, 2008, 10:48:59 PM »
 :|
Looks like I've stumbled across something above my intelligence level
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Roobubba

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Re: is it safe to disconnect a feedback loop?
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2008, 08:54:52 AM »
:|
Looks like I've stumbled across something above my intelligence level

I read through that, and now I know what it must be like for the people who read my papers :(

jpfamps

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Re: is it safe to disconnect a feedback loop?
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2008, 11:33:54 AM »
Indeed.

I'm an academic biochemist, and I expect I have produced articles that are fairly impenetrable myself......

Roobubba

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Re: is it safe to disconnect a feedback loop?
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2008, 11:51:51 AM »
Indeed.

I'm an academic biochemist, and I expect I have produced articles that are fairly impenetrable myself......

Same field then, that means you've definitely got one up on me - I can probably only understand one half of the the topics you write about! I know nothing about amplification, largely stemming from a lack of interest rather than my innate stupidity, I suspect...

HTH AMPS

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Re: is it safe to disconnect a feedback loop?
« Reply #8 on: July 19, 2008, 12:08:10 AM »
jpf,

I know there was alot of discussion about DC-coupled PI on Ampage back in the 'old board' days.  Blocking distortion was bugging someone and the solutions got fairly complex.  I seem to remember someone coming up with a simple idea using a zener in the PI that would totally solve this. 

For my own purposes, I've found that so long as the caps and gain between stages are controlled appropriately, then blocking distortion isn't an issue.

In an amp designed to sound a certain way with NFB applied, the amp almost certainly will sound like shite if you disconnect the NFB loop and do nothing else to compensate.  If you have a Marshall and disconnect the NFB loop, change the following PI resistor values... 470ohm to 820ohm and 10k to 47k.  1k2 and 56k also sounds cool.

In cathode biased amps, just keep the cap accross the output tube cathode a reasonable size (22uF is more than enough from my experiences.)

jpfamps

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Re: is it safe to disconnect a feedback loop?
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2008, 10:48:59 AM »
Those values would limit the output from the PI and reduce blocking in the power stage. The reduction in head room in the PI might also generate a bit more distortion depending on the drive into the PI.

Most of the successful amps push pull amps that have no global negative feedback employ EL84s, although an AC50 set up correctly sound greats. We've not had much success running push pull 50 W amps without global negative feed back — the amps always sounded better with feedback, even taking gain structure issues into consideration. We've also tried ultralinear operation, which effectively applies negative feedback to the output stage but doesn't carry the risk of blocking distortion. Results were mixed to say the least and we have abandoned this topology for now, however I am still hopeful that something useful can be achieved with this topology.



HTH AMPS

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Re: is it safe to disconnect a feedback loop?
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2008, 11:38:29 PM »
I played round with a Simms Watts head for ages - these amps had UL taps feeding the screens (voltage lower/local feedback/clean headroom etc).   However, I found it made for a pretty dull and uninspiring amp.

Soon as I unhooked the UL taps on that amp and wired the screens up a couple of volts under the plate supply (typical Marshall way) the amp total opened up. 

I know Dr.Z amps are famous for their UL output transformers, but I've never played one to comment on how they sound. 

martinw

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Re: is it safe to disconnect a feedback loop?
« Reply #11 on: July 22, 2008, 07:50:24 AM »

Most of the successful amps push pull amps that have no global negative feedback employ EL84s, although an AC50 set up correctly sound greats. We've not had much success running push pull 50 W amps without global negative feed back


The Matamp 1224, GT1 et al don't have NFB and work well using EL34s.
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jpfamps

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Re: is it safe to disconnect a feedback loop?
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2008, 11:28:14 AM »
It's odd the amps that seem to work well without a negative feedback loop tend to employ pentodes (eg EL84s or EL34s) rather than beam tetrodes. Running say 6L6s or KT77s without negative feedback didn't seem to work for us. Even then the bass can be very flappy on say an AC30 with the wrong guitar.

Regardless, I haven't really got an explanation for this — in fact you might anticipate that beam tetrodes might work better without negative feedback due to lower plate impedance and hence better speaker damping. EL34s and EL84s seem to have less bass response than beam tetrodes, so this might help.

A good compromise is to use some negative feedback to help the bass response but then employ a presence control to decouple the negative feedback at mid/high frequencies.