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Author Topic: Pickup heights!  (Read 10024 times)

webby

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Pickup heights!
« on: October 25, 2008, 08:33:13 PM »
Having fiddled endlessly with pickup heights/balance and still struggling to get a sweet OOP tone (LP Standard Faded + Pg Blues), I was watching the BBC Guitar programme the other night and was amazed at the Fleetwood Mac clip.
PG's neck pickup was set so the bass side was as far down as it could go...possibly off of the screw.
Did anybody else notice this?

Twinfan

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Re: Pickup heights!
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2008, 09:58:08 AM »
Yeah, I saw that!  On my PRS McCarty I have the bass sides a bit lower, but nothing as drastic as that.

I find this is a good starting point:

* Fret bass E at last fret
* Adjust both pickups so that the distance from the top of the polepiece to the underside of the string is 2mm
* Do the same for the top E string
* Wind the bass side screw down one complete turn (360 degrees)

I then fine tune them by ear.....
« Last Edit: October 26, 2008, 10:02:34 AM by Twinfan »

Twinfan

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Re: Pickup heights!
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2008, 10:01:44 AM »
Ooops - double post!

webby

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Re: Pickup heights!
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2008, 11:50:24 AM »
Thanks for the advice...still fiddling.
Going back to the clip, wondered how (or why) he would play with it like that, my first reaction was that he was miming over a recorded backing track - but apparently not.
Understand about the need to boost 'upper mids' for the OOP thing but hadn't seen anything like this before.
Anybody with any insider info know what was going on?  I bet somebody somewhere does...
Are there other examples of this peculiar adjustment - another Peter Green mystery perhaps.
I wondered if it had come off the spring and he had'nt had time to put it right before going on.
Or was it a backing track after all?

Twinfan

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Re: Pickup heights!
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2008, 11:57:36 AM »
Both pickups were like that if I recall, not just the neck.  It's a common thing to do on LPs (drop the bass side) but that was a bit extreme.  Maybe he was just experimenting at the time?

AndyR

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Re: Pickup heights!
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2008, 12:29:55 PM »
I didn't see it, but I'm not surprised - my pickups haven't got that extreme yet, but I'd go there if the sound coming out dictated it...

I've always been interested in pickup heights, but much more so since getting involved with BKPs. With what I've learnt recently, I've actually found that I can seriously improve stock or non-BKPs with pickup height adjustment now.

I think improve is seriously subjective though - we all want slightly different things out of our pups, so I take everything I read here with a pinch of salt, but it's all worth a try to see what it does for me. Maybe he was experimenting at the time? But if it works, it's right...

My current thinking is as follows:

If the pup has adjustable poles, set them all level with the cover first - I'll only adjust them nowadays if I have a perceived loud or quiet string after the other adjustments. I used to fiddle with these all the time and used to get in a terrible mess.

I start with the treble side of the bridge pup. I do get it as close to the strings as Twinfan does (didn't used to, but I found BKPs like this more than other pups I've used over the years). I set the bass side slightly lower because I know that's roughly what I'm going to want (from previous experience).

Then I balance the neck (and middle if it's a strat) by comparing its output to the bridge - nothing to do with measurements on this one for me! If the neck ends up too high (catches the strings or produces magnetic problems), then I get it as high as possible then lower the bridge by output comparison. Again, the bass side of the pup(s) gets set slightly lower. BTW - I use a very clean sound for output comparison, I do it by ear mainly, but I'm also watching meters on a mixing desk - trust the ears first though :D

That's the initial settings - I then I live with it for a bit (days/weeks, depends on how I feel), tweaking as necessary, going right back to the beginning if it gets out of hand!

During the tweaking phase, I use the pup heights to control tone - at least this is my perception of what I'm doing. Like Twinfan, I fine tune by ear, but I tend to think in "quarter turns" of the screws - it really is that sensitive.

I learnt this "tone control" thing with my Mississippi Queens - closer to the strings means fatter, more output, less perceived treble. Further from the strings is thinner, more clarity, and more perceived treble. It really shows up on MQs, so I experimented with the others - seems to apply to them all (non-BKPs as well). So my simplified rule of thumb is "If I want more bottom-end, raise it, if I want more clarity or bite, lower it" - I can do this to any side of any pickup, and then I have to rebalance the pup outputs. There's quite a bit of extra fiddling to get the inbetween sounds, when more than one pup is selected, just right, but you get the picture...

Following this routine, my strat has the bass side of the pups at least 3-4mm lower than the treble side (each pup is different). I'd happily accept a bigger difference if the tone dictated (and the screws can manage it :lol:)... I wanted the top strings fatter and the bass strings clearer, and that's what I've got - sounds excellent now.

My MQs (Gib Explorer) have a similar difference, slightly less pronounced maybe. My Riff Raffs (Epi SG) have an enormous difference between bass and treble side, but that's a work in progress. Both guitars have more pronounced slant on the bridge pickups. My Mules (Tokai Love Rock) are almost flat - seems nicely balanced at the moment. My Blackguarded Tele has the bridge almost flat but the neck has definite down-slant on the bass side.

I've only learnt this "tone control" aspect recently with my MQs, and I'm so glad I have, albeit some 30 years late :roll:. When I was young I heard old strat players saying you get "better tone" with the pups further from the strings - better than what?! You try adjusting your pups and it is different but you lose some stuff as well, but you live with it, wondering whether you can hear what they're hearing... Then you get others saying you get better output jamming the things up against the strings - again, better than what?

Now I've figured out that pickup height is just a "tone control" for me, and I've figured out exactly how it works on my guitars, I can get my own personal "better" without having to trust other people's apparently conflicting advice :D.

(BTW, I didn't do this on my own, several people on this forum helped me to figure this out - many thanks one and all :D)
Play or Download AndyR Music at http://www.alonetone.com/andyr

webby

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Re: Pickup heights!
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2008, 07:55:11 PM »
Guys,
Excellent advice, thanks!
Still intrigued by the clip though....a bit more than a quarter turn there!

Fourth Feline

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Re: Pickup heights!
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2008, 08:17:02 PM »
Guys,
Excellent advice, thanks!
Still intrigued by the clip though....a bit more than a quarter turn there!

I wonder if the clue lies in the fact that Peter Green was said to have used heavier strings ( being an ex Bass player ).

Whilst I have never read an interview where he revealed exactly what he used, I feel it is no coincidence that Gary Moore nailed his tone on the 'Blues For Greeny' tribute album - using the same guitar, but with 10 - 52 strings.  Perhaps P.G. was angling the bass side the pickup away ( Strat style ) to experience the heavy bottom feel, but with a flatter e.q / 'open' P.A.F tone ?

As was also mentioned though, he was probably experimenting and changing settings on a daily / weekly basis - and as the clip shows him wearing his white robe, ( which marked the beginnings of his ever more eccentric phase)  - his reasoning and experiments may have been somewhat exagerated ?



« Last Edit: October 27, 2008, 10:16:42 AM by Fourth Feline »

webby

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Re: Pickup heights!
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2008, 08:19:20 PM »
Don't know if I'm allowed, but same thing has appeared 'elsewhere' with a couple of pics.
See what you make of this:-
The stills confirm that the bridge one is 'all a c--k' too.

sjwebb90

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Re: Pickup heights!
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2008, 08:30:29 PM »
These are my findings having fitted a set of Rebel Yell's and a set of Crawlers to 2 X PRS's and also a Nailbomb & Irish Tours to a Charvel (HSS).

Humbuckers:

A) Fret bass E at last fret.
B) Adjust BOTH pickups so that the distance from the top of the screw polepiece to the underside of the string is 3/32"
C) Do the same for the top E string.
D) Adjust Bridge pickup first.  I have found the trick here, is to only lower one of the screws to balance pickup. Don't go trying to tweak both screws at the same time.   I.e  If it sounds too bassy drop the Bass side slightly, or vice versa. Also, its small tweaks on the screw of about an 1/8 of a turn, if that.
E) Once you have the Bridge balanced, then tweak the Neck in the same way.

Single Coil Middle & Neck With Humbucker

First, set all three pickups to initial heights before fine tuning.
Humbucker : 3/32 from  top of the screw polepieces to the underside of the string.
Middle & Neck : 4/32 from top of the polepieces to the underside of the string.

A) Fine tune humbucker.
B) Fine tune Middle.
C) Fine tune Neck.
D) Check that output of all three pickups are balanced.

The above process worked fine on the aforementioned guitars, but I suspect there maybe other twists on the theme with other makes of guitar. Ultimately you will need to use your ears.


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AndyR

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Re: Pickup heights!
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2008, 08:20:59 AM »
Don't know if I'm allowed, but same thing has appeared 'elsewhere' with a couple of pics.
See what you make of this:-
The stills confirm that the bridge one is 'all a c--k' too.

From that pic, the slant of treble down to bass doesn't look too huge to me :roll: - I've got that kind of slant on my MQs and they sound great :lol:

I think it's "do what you like" really, but like sjwebb90 says (and others) use your ears :D
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