Different valves = Different sounds?

[Ian Price]

Hello all,

Does anyone know of a place that gives you a broad overview of what characteristic sounds different valves give? Had a quick search on this forum and couldn't find anything.

I currently have a Laney Lionheart (1 x EL84 and 3 x 12AX7 preamp tubes). I'm nowhere near an expert on valves (I just plug in and play) but would appreciate a bit of insight into what different valves do the base sound of an amp.

Cheers!

Ian.

[Tellboy]

Watford  Valves is a good starting point.

http://www.watfordvalves.com/reports.asp

[tomjackson]

Ian,

this is biased towards Mesa valves but it might be usefull:-

http://www.mesaboogie.com/Product_Info/TubeReference/TubeRefGuide.html

Tom

[TwilightOdyssey]

The short answer is YES, swapping valves can drastically change your amp's tone, for better for for worse! Generally speaking, the more pedals you use in front of your amp, the lower gain you want the preamp to be.

The Watford site is a good one, but it definitely presupposes you have at least some knowledge of valves.




Ian, what you are interested in doing is called tube rolling and it's VERY addictive, and can be expensive, to boot.



The first thing you need to know is that there are 3 different types of valves if you are interested in swapping.

NEW valves are either totally new designs based on new patents variations for existing valves or an attempt to improve upon an existing valve design. (For example, the EL34-B is a 'new' design, as is the 6CA7, KT77 and KT99) Different brands have different sounds. Here is where someplace like Watford Valves and New Sensor Corporation can provide you with a lot of useful information.

RE-ISSUE valves are attempts to recreate classic valve designs using modern materials and construction methods.

NOS valves are New, old stock. These are original valves, but unused. There are several sub-categories to this type of valve, including JAN (Joint Army Navy) and Siemens (my personal favourite for 12AX7s).



The next thing you need to know if you're interested in tube rolling is about valve substitution. This would involve taking your preamp or power valves and swapping them out for a different flavour of valve in an attempt to change/improve the sound.


For me, personally, I prefer using NOS preamp valves with new or re-issue power amp valves, which I feel balances out the sound quality:reliability equation quite nicely.

[WezV]

this is the thing i like about only having small (less than 5w) valve amps. if i want to know what a tube sounds like i can just swap them in about 2 minutes.  I have had some nice NOS ones from watford valves and generally the descriptions have been accurate but obviously different amps will respond differently

with bigger amps you need to worry about biasing ... thats for the experts

[hamfist]

For me, personally, I prefer using NOS preamp valves with new or re-issue power amp valves, which I feel balances out the sound quality:reliability equation quite nicely.

Much the same for me, really.  I've done much tube-rolling in my time, and find that (unless you are playing with the master well above about 4 most of the time) NOS pre-amp valves make the most difference.
 The cost of NOS power tubes is also rather prohibitive, generally.  Many of them are worth it, if you can get hold of some for reasonable prices though.

The last two amps I've bought (both minimally used 1970's amps) have both come loaded with NOS tubes throughout, so thankfully I'm well stocked with vintage EL34's at the moment  :D.

[HTH AMPS]

my two penneth... older amps with less preamp gain tend to show up the differences in output valves the most.   for instance, the Marshall plexis I've owned have all benefited from NOS Mullard EL34s - expensive, but worth it.

preamp valves are the best 'bang for the buck' though - put a decent NOS ECC83/12AX7 in the first preamp stage and you will really hear a difference.

out of all the output valve types, I find that jj 6V6s and Svetlana 6550s fair the best compared to their NOS counterparts.  winged-C- EL34s are good solid valves, but not a patch on NOS quality/tone.  I don't know of a current production EL84 that I'd recommend for tone (I'd go NOS with EL84s).  for 6L6s I'd go with jj again - they're a really solid valve (I also like the Groove Tube 6L6GE but its twice as expensive as most other current production valves).

[Alex]

IMO (very humble as well) best choice if you don't want to spend too much money is the JJ with the "S" in the name (for short plate), that should be the newer kind.

[Elliot]

If you want to start on this quest just look at the V1 pre-amp valve, the most obvious determinant of valve tone in your amp - you can buy 1 NOS 12AX7 like a Philips JAN for a relatively good price - compared to a New Sensor Sovtek standard issue, you'll hear the difference (although the New Sensor 'Mullards' sound nice). 

If you are starting on tube rolling I would also get one of the GE or Philips JAN 5751s (GEs more bright, more 'Fender', Philips more 'blues') going on Ebay at the moment for about £15.  5751s are compatible with 12AX7s but have 30% lower gain, so have a more 'vintage' quality to the tone.  In many respects its like buying an subtle FX pedal that allows you to easily switch between 60s/70s classic rock gain and more heavy output.

As an aside I just bought a Blackheart Killer Ant - the Chinese tubes it came with were way too fierce, especially in the power amp side, so I put in a Philips JAN 12AX7 in the pre-amp and a Philips JAN 5751 in the power tube slot.  This amps now sounds like a classic!

[hamfist]

and a Philips JAN 5751 in the power tube slot. 

Surely a mistake ?

[Elliot]

No.  The Blackheart Killer Ant (.5 watt) uses a 12AX type valve as its power valve rather than an EL84 or whatever.  I found the 12AX7 it came with too brutal but a 12AT7 too tame and 'fendery' (which as I use Fender amps 95% I have plenty of that tone).  The slightly lower gain of the 5751 gives a bluesy, creamy overdrive but also a touch more clean headroom than a 12AX7.   

[hamfist]

No.  The Blackheart Killer Ant (.5 watt) uses a 12AX type valve as its power valve rather than an EL84 or whatever.  I found the 12AX7 it came with too brutal but a 12AT7 too tame and 'fendery' (which as I use Fender amps 95% I have plenty of that tone).  The slightly lower gain of the 5751 gives a bluesy, creamy overdrive but also a touch more clean headroom than a 12AX7.   

Wowsers, a 0.5W amp !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[HTH AMPS]

No.  The Blackheart Killer Ant (.5 watt) uses a 12AX type valve as its power valve rather than an EL84 or whatever.  I found the 12AX7 it came with too brutal but a 12AT7 too tame and 'fendery' (which as I use Fender amps 95% I have plenty of that tone).  The slightly lower gain of the 5751 gives a bluesy, creamy overdrive but also a touch more clean headroom than a 12AX7.   

Wowsers, a 0.5W amp !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

yep, I've got one of my own 1w builds here that uses an ECC82 in the output stage.  you can sub in a 12BH7 or ECC99, but really it's best if you build the amp from the ground up to use those valves.

[Ian Price]

this is the thing i like about only having small (less than 5w) valve amps. if i want to know what a tube sounds like i can just swap them in about 2 minutes.  I have had some nice NOS ones from watford valves and generally the descriptions have been accurate but obviously different amps will respond differently

with bigger amps you need to worry about biasing ... thats for the experts

Wez/all - how would I know if I need to rebias my amp? It's a 5 watt class A amp.

Basically I'm interested in getting a fender-ish type of clean and want the gain to be a bit more meaty, I find it a little tinny without a lot of clarity.

Thanks for the advice so far all - I am learning, albeit sloooooooowly.

[dave_mc]

if it's 5 watt class A (i assume single-ended), then it probably doesn't need to be biased. what amp is it? EDIT: :oops: just realised it's a laney lionheart. As far as i'm aware, that doesn't need to be biased, but check with the others who know more to make sure. :)