Tube saturation at 30W. Ouch!

[Keven]

Okay, so in an experiment to get a nice tone, i went to the rehearsal place the other day, with a compressor and an EQ in hand, right into my traynor ycs100h's power amp. this amp has a class A30W - A/B100W switch (Triode Pentode i figure..)

so i get it up to the volume where i get a decent power tube breakup, in 30W mode. this is ear shatteringly loud. looking at how to get poweramp tone combined with a bit of preamp OD without getting fired from the city... there are two options. a Hot plate, or another amp.

then a question popped in my head, mainly for the amp builders. is 30W with full power tube saturation really supposed to be so loud it'll drown out a ridiculously loud drum? traynor makes a 2 ch 15/50W head that could be a nice backup, and would also make a great low wattage amp for band rehearsal.

also, i remember the repair tech my store works with told me that companies don't really make dual class amps. it's just a gimmick where they send off some signal to the ground (grid?) to darken the sound a bit.. what do the real guys say?

currently i'm happy  boosting my guitar with a compressor and nice big notch in the 630K into a mildly driven preamp, but i'm sure you all understand the quest for power amp tone :D

[Denim n Leather]

I totally understand your pain!

I do it with my Splawn at 100W. It requires an iso cab, an Auralex Gramma, 4 soundproofing blankets with lots of clamps/bungie cords holding them tight around the cab, and  Hot Plate set at -8dB. Even then the volume leaking out is LOUD.

I've tried it with the Splawn running at 1/2 power, but the tone isn't quite as gnarly.

You might wanna try something similar. From the iso cab you can run a parallel out to another outside cab with further attenuation (like a Suck Knob) or into the FOH PA.

[Keven]

Holy cr@p. that's one hell of a setup. got any pictures around? how does all this sound and affect the high end? from my experiments, power amp distortion has so much high end it doesn't really matter if you muffle it up, but i'm curious.

from what i understand, that's for recording?

we have a soundproofed room for recording, and even if it's loud, well, vicfirth DB20 isolation headphones + in-ears can do the trick for my ears.... but is there any hope for rehearsing with power tube tone?  :oops:

[Zaned]

For example, 50w is only 3 dB less loud than a 100 watt amp. When comparing a 30w to 100w, we're talking about less than 6 dB difference, if all other things are equal. There is often a marked difference in the clean HEADROOM though.

Even a 5w amp running at full tilt is something like somebody screaming REALLY hard and loud.

-Zaned

[hunter]

You could try a smaller cab with less effective speakers. Or one of those new power attenuators that seem to be the new revelation like the Ultimate Attenuator or the Faustine Phantom

[hamfist]

You could try a smaller cab with less effective speakers. Or one of those new power attenuators that seem to be the new revelation like the Ultimate Attenuator or the Faustine Phantom

The simplest way forward for you Keven, to my mind, is to get an Ultimate Attenuator (or Faustine Phantom).
And, yes, I have owned a UA. It is sooooo much better than an Hotplate for heavy attenuation that they are not really in the same class.
 Simply set up your amp for the output tone you like the best, then twiddle the UA's volume knob to get your desired volume. It really is as simple as that.  If you are getting speaker breakup in your ideal tone, then of course you would lose that at lower volumes, unless you used an iso cab and re-amp the signal. But to get power amp break up at sensible volumes the UA is king.

 I no longer own one because I don't like power amp breakup in my tone.

[Denim n Leather]

Holy cr@p. that's one hell of a setup. got any pictures around? how does all this sound and affect the high end? from my experiments, power amp distortion has so much high end it doesn't really matter if you muffle it up, but i'm curious.

The high freqs are there, but but not screechy at all -- might be my particular set of valves/speaker/etc, however. For recording, I use a Sennheiser e609 Silver going into an SSL XLogic mic pre. Does a great jorb at preserving the original tone!

I'll try to snap a pic this weekend, but it just looks a bit like a giant marshmellow!!

from what i understand, that's for recording?

Doesn't have to be. Many "big name" guitarists use (and have used) iso cabs live. All those amps you see on stage are for show/vanity/endorsement reasons.

we have a soundproofed room for recording, and even if it's loud, well, vicfirth DB20 isolation headphones + in-ears can do the trick for my ears.... but is there any hope for rehearsing with power tube tone?  :oops:

Sure, if you run the parallel out as I described.

The Ultimate Attenuator may be better than the Hot Plate for serious attenuation (I've never compared them), but that seems like a less-than-ideal way to go about it, especially since an iso cab runs about as much money as a decent attenuator. Easier to carry, however...

[Keven]

forgive the idiotic question, but for live i understand an iso cab will be micced, for rehearsing, micced and into the band P.A. ? or will just the volume emaning from the iso cab do give something decent?

[Denim n Leather]

Not an idiotic question at all!

Depending on the iso cab in question, it will have several inputs an outputs:

On the INPUT side, it will have a speaker input jack to go from your amplifier.

On the OUTPUT side, it will have 1 or 2 XLR jacks for the microphone(s) and a parallel output that you can daisy chain to whatever you like: an external cab, an attenuator/cab (like I do),  Motherload, etc etc.

How you configure it is up to you and your needs. If you want the actual sound of the power valve breakup, the best way to go is to use the XLR output, however.

[JamesHealey]

a 5w tube amp cranked will be loud enough to play with a drummer at rehersals, yes five watts!

30w is unreal loud when cranked. U2 , Kings of Leon, Queen to name a few used Vox AC30's to play some pretty big gigs to be fair. (KoL using Matchless DC30 now)


P.A. systems do the rest.. I simply don't see the need for anything above 30w imho Im a big advocate for 15-18w amps as they seem to hit the sweet spot at reasonably levels without being too weak in a live context.

Audley Freed just did a tour with Peter Frampton using a 15w Matchless Lightning..

[Keven]

well my 5w valve junior doesn't cut enough, so it's not true for my case ;) though it -is- a single 12'' and i haven't tried it in my 4x12...

could be a decent experiment. use my 5w on one side of my amp for distortion, and the 30w for cleans on the other side of the amp....

[cjdean1]

Tiny Terror and a 2x12 cabinet. Perfect!