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Author Topic: pickup for bright archtop  (Read 4494 times)

liftman

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pickup for bright archtop
« on: September 21, 2009, 05:50:34 PM »
I've got an Ibanez Artcore archtop which is a surprisingly great guitar and 'though I like the sound I think it could be improved with some BK's ( I've put some BKP90's in my Italia Lusso and they're superb).
The Ibanez is really bright for a jazzer as it has a maple body so I was wondering which humbucker would be best for pulling out the mids and bottom end .
cheers.
italia lusso, bkp90's, jazzmaster,ibanez af150,bandmaster reverb, pro reverb, ampeg j-20, mongotone

tomjackson

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Re: pickup for bright archtop
« Reply #1 on: September 21, 2009, 06:42:16 PM »
Riff Raffs are out as ther are fairly bright so I'd say A2 Stormy Mondays would suit as ther are very warm but articulate.
The bass is rounded so if you want a harder bass I'm told the A4 SM's would be the ticket.

But having owned the A2 SM I'd say they would be a good choice.

ericsabbath

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Re: pickup for bright archtop
« Reply #2 on: September 21, 2009, 08:18:45 PM »
black dogs
Riff Raff, Mules, Black Dog, VHII's, Cold Sweat

Fourth Feline

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Re: pickup for bright archtop
« Reply #3 on: September 21, 2009, 10:02:24 PM »
Welcome to the forum Liftman !  :)

As you may gather, I am a delighted Archtop / BKP Manhattan user ;  but my thoughts as to humbuckers for that genre, ( but with a need to notably balance the brightness ) are as follows :

The last time I corresponded with fellow forumite 'Twinfan' about a similar issue, he Agreed with Eric Hellstyle, as to the darker , fatter 'Black Dogs'.

The 'other' option ( which is alleged to have been ordered by Jazzers in France ) - is of course the Alnico magneted 'Warpig' - with a double row of recessed allen screw pole pieces. This later option seemed a bit 'risky' at first glance, but then I noticed that some of the higher priced Bendetto pickups look very, very similar.

I would be interested to see where this thread goes - and indeed what Tim recommends, if contacted.

Meanwhile, it's nice to see another 'Archtoper' on the forum !  :)

lespauljoe

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Re: pickup for bright archtop
« Reply #4 on: September 22, 2009, 12:21:06 AM »
I have two guitars with Bare Knuckle pups. The first set I purchased were the Mules for an '08 Gibson Les Paul Standard. These are low output but slightly hotter PAF style pups. They are very articulate with great definition. This guitar is chambered, so it also has a naturally bright tone. Personally, I wouldn't recommend these for your intended use even though they are great pups. The Mules replaced Burstbucker Pro's, and although they were good in their own right, the Mules are better in every regard.

The other set I currently own are VHII's which I put in a Peavey Wolfgang. I explained to Tim that I wanted to stay with vintage pups but that I wanted a warmer sound than the Mules and he recommended the VHII's. He was spot on. They fattened up the tone and may be slightly darker than the Mules. They definitely have the "Brown Sound" IMO. With these, you get closer to what you want.

Lastly, I have one other '08 LP Standard, and I emailed Tim and told him I wanted to take it one step further and he recommended the Black Dog's. Others have recommended these and they are probably right, but email Tim and give him an idea of the tone you are looking. He's a great guy and gives great advice. I'm feel sure he will make you what you want.

liftman

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Re: pickup for bright archtop
« Reply #5 on: September 23, 2009, 03:50:13 AM »
thanks for the replies, I phoned Tim and he recommended Manhatten and for a humbucker Mule A11. So I guess before I take the plunge , I'm feelin' the fourth feline for the Manhatten but has anyone got experience with the mule in a jazzbox-maple?
thanks, esp to fourth feline- that was a very descriptive piece - I'm only concerned that my guitar has not enough bass end- do you reckon the manhatten can bring it out over the mule?

italia lusso, bkp90's, jazzmaster,ibanez af150,bandmaster reverb, pro reverb, ampeg j-20, mongotone

Fourth Feline

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Re: pickup for bright archtop
« Reply #6 on: September 23, 2009, 09:46:44 AM »
thanks for the replies, I phoned Tim and he recommended Manhatten and for a humbucker Mule A11. So I guess before I take the plunge , I'm feelin' the fourth feline for the Manhatten but has anyone got experience with the mule in a jazzbox-maple?
thanks, esp to fourth feline- that was a very descriptive piece - I'm only concerned that my guitar has not enough bass end- do you reckon the manhatten can bring it out over the mule?



Yes the Manhattans over the Mules for sure - and over the Stormys , now I have heard what they can do.

 I have the Mules in a Les Paul, and have tried the Mississipi Queens, AII and AIV Stormy Mondays in a semi-acoustic 335 copy. The irony being, that the single coil/ P90  type M.Qs were actually fatter sounding than the Humbuckers for me.

The Manhattans are very rich and plummy sounding, despite having tremendous clarity and articulation at the same time. I use Thomastik 'Jazz Swing' 12-50 tapewound strings, and the bass / mids are very full, rich and rounded - again achieving clarity without thin-ness at the same time.

The web site for the shop 'Foulds Of Derby' - where they have a dedicated Jazz guitar section, describe the Manhattans by listing players of yesteryear such as Grant Green  e.t.c.  I feel this verifies Tim's success in getting a truly authentic Alnico III, 1950s style Jazz pickup.  I am not one for home recording ;  but just so a friend could check out my novice Jazz arrangements - I recorded the Manahattans straight into a cheap Tapco interface - with  very basic 'Traction' software with no amplifier or speaker simulation e.t.c.  It came out very rich, despite being recorded very dryly and in such a perfunctory manner.   One of my pieces was a self arranged version of 'Autumn Leaves' - in which I deliberately leant on the low 'E' and 'A' strings for timbral effect. The resulting sound was cavernously deep, even on relatively light .037 & .050 tapewound strings.

The only reason I did not try and promote the Manhattan in my opening reply, being that I respected your wish for a Humbucker - and as you already had P90s in your solid body guitar, might not have wanted what you percieved as a P90 - ish second set.  The truth is that ( compared to P90s I have heard - and my own hotter sounding Mississipi Queens ) the Manahattans have a character all their own.  The clarity of Stormy Mondays, but with what I percieve to be a much lusher bass end and richer lower mids.

They have a creamy yet almost acoustic quality, revealing that my favourite amp for these is a Phil Jones AAD 'Cub' 100 - which ( one gathers ) is equally at home with a violin and other such instruments that need 'magnifying' - not masking.  Other folk on here seem to have enjoyed the Manhattans in a solid body too, but their 'fingerprints' are all over an archtop in my book.

Unfortunately, ( or fortunately  :lol: ) - I have not posted my fledgeling efforts on a hosting site for you to hear - as of course, doing Jazz covers breaks all their copyright laws e.t.c.  I still have a copy of that rather rough ( both sonically and skill wise ) collection of my first five arrangements on CD though - should you wish a copy to be posted to a 'neutral' address to further respect your internet security.  The fact that the tone of Manhattans blooms and shines even on a poor quality medium says a lot ( for me ) about the Manhattans.  

I feel that the Manhattans are a unique pickup , not " Like this B.K.P. pickup or that B.K.P pickup " - but  a voice all to themselves. As with all these things, it does end up a personal gamble of course, but one I felt payed dividends.

« Last Edit: September 23, 2009, 10:16:46 AM by Fourth Feline »

tomjackson

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Re: pickup for bright archtop
« Reply #7 on: September 23, 2009, 12:11:21 PM »

Based on your excellent descriptions Fourth Feline (both now and in my previous posts on the same subject) the Manhattans would be top choice for my Tokai 335.  I love Grant Green's tone.

My only concern would be now that I'm playing in a covers band (with the Tokai and a Tele), I need the 335 to cover Bluesbreakers and Cream tracks and some heavier blues styles.  I presume they would not cope with this?
It's almost as if I would need a new guitar for them that was just for 'me' playing at home.  That's not really an option so when funds permit I think it will be Riff Raffs or A4 SM's as previously advised.

It's definitely a pickup we need more clips on!

Fourth Feline

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Re: pickup for bright archtop
« Reply #8 on: September 23, 2009, 12:48:56 PM »

Based on your excellent descriptions Fourth Feline (both now and in my previous posts on the same subject) the Manhattans would be top choice for my Tokai 335.  I love Grant Green's tone.

My only concern would be now that I'm playing in a covers band (with the Tokai and a Tele), I need the 335 to cover Bluesbreakers and Cream tracks and some heavier blues styles.  I presume they would not cope with this?
It's almost as if I would need a new guitar for them that was just for 'me' playing at home.  That's not really an option so when funds permit I think it will be Riff Raffs or A4 SM's as previously advised.

It's definitely a pickup we need more clips on!

Cheers Tom !  :)

I would not use Manhattans for 'general purpose' - as you say, AIV Stormy Mondays or Riff Raffs seem the way to go for your purposes.

I am nudged by your reminder about clips to find a hosting site and expose my first Jazz noodlings in the 'Players' section.  As I mentioned, the clips are just basic ( i.e. un-modelled ) computer recordings of varying volume - and a splash of reverb, all recorded rather tentatively one late evening.  Please check 'Players' in the next half hour of so for clips ( hopefully ).

 :)

liftman

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Re: pickup for bright archtop
« Reply #9 on: September 24, 2009, 09:54:29 AM »
very nice tone in the clips, and great playing too- I'm definitely going to go for a manhattan, it sounds very clear and warm. Just got a couple of things to sell before I go for it.   
italia lusso, bkp90's, jazzmaster,ibanez af150,bandmaster reverb, pro reverb, ampeg j-20, mongotone

Fourth Feline

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Re: pickup for bright archtop
« Reply #10 on: September 24, 2009, 06:44:55 PM »
very nice tone in the clips, and great playing too- I'm definitely going to go for a manhattan, it sounds very clear and warm. Just got a couple of things to sell before I go for it.    

Thank you for your kind words ; I am glad it clarified things a bit more for you. However nice a set of pickups may be - and however much they will optimise the guitar - dropping circa £200 on a set is not to be taken lightly.

The other thing I would mention - is that ( as you will be experiencing new levels of 3 dimensional clarity ) - an inexpensive 'Cleartone' guitar cable has served many of us well on this forum - as a true 'tester'. We have no affiliation to the company, but it's the same people that make and market Award / Session amplifiers. They make cables to order - and although very affordable, blow others out of the water for transparency. I only use a 'Monster' Jazz cable - as 1) I already had it 2) It attenuates, compresses and 'silkens' certain frequencies specific to Jazz usage.  Just a thought , If you where in need of a good tester cable.

The other nice thing about the Manhattan ( or Mississipi Queen ) pickups , is that as they are totaly enclosed in a nickel case - this acts as an effective Faraday Cage against most / all of the dreaded single coil interferance and hum, so there is an inherant sheilding going on too. I cannot say how they reject hum at gig level, but they are totally silent with my house wiring - a rare compliment !

I put mine (again,  established B.K.P. lore ) about 2mm from the strings height wise.  Be it Stormy Mondays or Manhattans, prepare for that other B.K.P phenomena - and that is the pickups make you do more work. That is to say, they are not 'blocky' sounding - or forgiving of poor technique, due to the frightening honesty with which they present your playing.

In any case, enjoy your Archtop - and I hope you have a musically productive and enjoyable Autumn / Winter.  :)
« Last Edit: September 24, 2009, 06:47:29 PM by Fourth Feline »