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Author Topic: advice on BKPU for '74 L5 CES  (Read 2903 times)

tomeo808

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advice on BKPU for '74 L5 CES
« on: February 19, 2011, 09:21:23 AM »
Am interested in using a BKPU in my '74 Gibson L5 CES.  I had the original pickups for a few years, followed with a SD '59 in the 80's until the mid 90's when I installed a Classic '57.  All PU changes represented positive improvement IMO.  Today, I tried a '90 Gibson ES 335 that I had once owned (for about 3 years) with Stormy Mondays at a friend's house, was very impressed and became very enamored of the pickup.  It reminded me of the sound I got out of my '64 ES 335 (stock stud tailpiece, block inlay -- sold for $350 in the late '70s -- I've seen them around for about $25k USD; but I guess we all have these kind of stories).  I also have a '74 Gibson Johnny Smith acquired about a decade ago with a Benedetto PU.
At this point in time, I primarily gig as a soloist playing standards, with occasional work as a duo with a singer.  I occasionally play in larger contexts from quartet to big band.  I have read some of the information on this forum that seems to indicate a preference for Manhattans.  Any suggestions?

Fourth Feline

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Re: advice on BKPU for '74 L5 CES
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2011, 11:26:36 AM »
Hi !  :)

Thank you for your post in the' Players' section. Firstly, I must say that it must be great to own a L5 !  :o

For your usage ( and my all time favourite B.K.P for 'Standards' / mellow Jazz ) I would suggest the Manhattans . If you think the Stormy Mondays are nice ( which they are of course ) - then I feel you will be blown away with the Manhattans.

For me, the 'magic' ingredient is the Alnico III magnet ; warmth, depth  and detail - all in one great pickup. The soundclips I left of the 'Manhattans' in the Player's section , don't really do them justice - due to basic P.C. recording techniques, and novice playing e.t.c - but for me , in this setting they eclipse even the Stormy Mondays.  They really are a pickup that you have to hear 'In the flesh' to fully appreciate the fine details and tone of.


Even if you initially just tried a Manhattan in the neck position (although the matched set are superbly voiced and balanced) - I feel sure you would be happy to have discovered them  :)

(*Edit*)

I've just had a further thought, regarding your need to play in a band - without negating the needs of solo playing.

If you need more 'push' - but within the basic P.A.F tonality, why not ask Tim at B.K.P about a Mule ?

 Specifically, I wondered if  a (custom made ) Alnico III magneted 'Mule' instead of the usual AIV magnets used for Mules ? I have never had to 'test' the S.M.s or Manhattans in a band situation - and wonder if you might benefit from a slightly hotter pickup than the S.M or Manhattan for ( bigger ) band work only.


« Last Edit: February 19, 2011, 07:27:42 PM by Fourth Feline »

tomeo808

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Re: advice on BKPU for '74 L5 CES
« Reply #2 on: February 21, 2011, 09:56:18 AM »
Thank you for your thoughtful responses.  I wrote to Tim; he suggested the Stormy Mondays for the L5.  My decision is complicated by the fact that: 1) I have heard the SMs "live," albeit in a semi-hollow ES-335 and was impressed; 2)  On the other hand, I would tend to lend much credence to your recommendations based what I have read of your posts on the BKPU forum.  Your choice of the Manhattans, my tendency to generally favor lower output pickups (I am not a particularly "loud" player), and the Manhattans being lower output than the SMs and my firsthand knowledge of the SMs  leaves me in a quandry as to choice. 

Broadly speaking, the tradeoff, as I see it, is clarity vs. power.  I believe your assertion that "the 'magic' ingredient is the Alnico III magnet" to be true, given its low magnetic pull and lower output.  Whatever the choice, I will probably install the neck position only, despite your positive comments about the voicing and balance of a matched set.  I have never used the bridge pu in my L5 on the job; same with the AF 75 the few times I took it out on the gig.  (I once asked my repairman to remove the bridge pu from my L5 --- thought it would be ligher  --- he wisely, I think, refused to do so for what amounted to cosmetic reasons). 

I have a few questions that remain.  One, did you opt for potted or unpotted for the SMs in your Ibanez AF 75?  Since I don't need much volume, I was thinking of the unpotted and was wonder what you think of its attendant virtues.  As I mentioned in the Players post, I have the same model that I bought as a replacement for my L5 if I was playing more in the elements, e.g., an outdoor wedding reception.  I was wondering as the the degree of improvement since I am now considering a pickup upgrade equal to 2/3rds the cost of the guitar.

Your suggestion of "a (custom made ) Alnico III magneted 'Mule' ... for ( bigger ) band work only" is a thought but given what I heard of the SMs in the 335 I played, I don't think this to be an issue.

Finally, let me again thank you for your previous and anticipated responses.  Your contributions on the Forum are appreciated by myself, and from what I can tell, others as well.  Thanks for freely sharing your knowledge and music.  If you have time or inclination, I have some audio files posted on my music blog -- http://tomchun.blogspot.com/  That might give you an idea of the kind of stuff I play (please forgive the somewhat self-aggrandizing tone --- I use it in place of a demo CD when gig hunting).

Fourth Feline

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Re: advice on BKPU for '74 L5 CES
« Reply #3 on: February 21, 2011, 10:51:42 AM »
Hello again Tom,  :)

Firstly, I always buy 'potted' B.K.P. especially as the low output B.K.P  have thus far proved to be detailed and airy enough - without having to over egg the pudding. Whilst I understand there is a slight difference of course, I cannot comment on un-potted pickups from direct experience.

The Stormy Monday sounds ideal as the picture develops - not only because Tim recommends it for you ( I've never known him to be wrong yet ! ) - but also as I evolve my perceptions of your desired outcomes. As you said, we can now easily rule out the need for AIII Mules - and have much less need of the mellowing influence of the Manhattans, with you being very much a neck P.U user.

Speaking as a user that predominantly tends to blend both pickups  ( with the guitar tone and volume pots set at about 8 ) with interludes played on the neck for Zen like simplicity -  I genuinely think you will enjoy the AII Stormy in the neck.  As you may have gathered, the AII Stormy Monday is a veritable 'Swiss Army knife' of sweetness , that I have so liked , it felt worth the work required to try in quite a few archtop guitar combinations.

Regarding the basic sound / test clips I left in the Player's section last year ; do bear in mind that the AF75 based soundclips ( now I re-listen to them a year on ) - were often done with roundwound Thomastic 'Be-Bop' ( 12 gauge ) strings unless I specified otherwise in the thread - and the Vintage VS575 based Manhattan clips - were usually with the mellower Thomastik 'Swing' flatwounds in the same gauge.  I mention this, because the rough sound clips that compare Manhattan to SMII and SMIV pickups do not therefore present a level playing field, rather a rare fully hollow guitar outing for B.K.P low output pickups on the forum.  Also bear in mind, that the AF75 sounds brighter acoustically than the Vintage ( Budget ES-175 copy ) - so I have one of each flavour.  

The relative cost of pickup to guitar is of course an understandible concern, but I found that the overall effect , was that the marriage between budget Archtop and B.K.P enabled me to achieve an overall effect that did full sonic justice to a range of amps - and I was happy to 'Go to press' with under the £400-£500 mark.  Even though cost is a real issue to me, the Manhattans so delighted me in the donor body of the VS575, that I actually bought the AF75 specifically to mount my pre- existing S.Ms.  My original idea being one guitar strung 'Be-bop' and one strung 'Swing'.
In the end, I wanted to spend my novice years ( i.e. life long ) with flatwound strings - expressed through two different but wholly complimentary guitar / B.K.P voices.

I very much look forward to setting time aside , in order to listen properly to your work - and learn from it , in my gleefull novice quest to learn this wonderful genre.  Your Blog page has been duly Bookmarked. 8)

Cheers !
« Last Edit: February 21, 2011, 11:00:07 AM by Fourth Feline »

tomeo808

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Re: advice on BKPU for '74 L5 CES
« Reply #4 on: February 22, 2011, 07:02:55 AM »
Hello FF,

Thank you again for your usual prompt and considered response.  Based on your feedback, I have decided on the Stormy Mondays with the L5 and will rely on guidance from Tim as to the potted/unpotted option.  One question that remains for me is whether to go with the BKPYU covers (aged gold plate to match the existing hardware on the L5) or to opt for "uncovered" [?] and use my existing covers with the SMs for cosmetic reasons.  All pickup changes to the L5 previously mentioned (stock > SD '59 > Classic '57) were added to my stock covers.  Are you aware of any sonic advantages to the BKPU covers?  

Re: the relative cost of pickup to guitar - I intend to hold off on any upgrade on the AF 75 at this time due to financial considerations.  What I need is another L5 so that I can use one with SMs and on with Manhattans. :lol:

I also appreciate your clarification on strings used with the AF75.  Maybe it would be better to respond elsewhere on forum, but briefly, I started out with 13 - 56 D'Angelicos when I purchased the L5 in '75.  In '78, I was advised to switch to GHS Compound Wound 11 - 52 based on my repairman's advice.  About 6 months ago, I began using a light GHS Flatwound set 11 - 46 mainly due to the "ravages of time," i.e., weakening fingers.  Heavier gauges on archtops sound better generally; I am impressed by your use of a 14 set.

Finally, I only included a link to my blog to inform our discussion; I doubt that my "work" can bear "proper" and careful scrutiny.  I have always been wracked with self-doubt but welcome any critique.  I, too, hope to continue my "novice quest to learn this wonderful genre."  
 
Mahalo (Thank you) again,
tom

P.S.  I will check the forum but are you aware on any threads on amps for use with archtops?

Fourth Feline

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Re: advice on BKPU for '74 L5 CES
« Reply #5 on: February 22, 2011, 12:33:24 PM »
Hello Tom,  :)

You again raised some interesting conversational points , which I will enjoy thinking through as follows :

I always go for pickup covers, for purely cosmetic reasons - but there is generally thought to be a slight 'sweetening' ( i.e subtle attenuation of the magnetic field's response ) with covers.  However ; I gather this is less of an issue with B.K.P - as being hand made, the windings on either option are 'tweeked' if required to give optimum product.   As I have tended to keep going back to my Monster 'Jazz' cable , exactly because it is ( to my ears ) slightly attenuating of high end resonant peaks - then of course I would always tend to be fully sated with pickup covers , wax potting and mercifully gentle  magnets !    I like clarity , but in the context of detail - not in the context of sounding like a Country / Jazz crossover act.  And yes, I agree - we BOTH need a pair of L5s in which to put our favourite B.K.Ps !  :lol:

Regarding strings, I must emphasise that I used 'Be-Bop' 12s , even though I had flirted with 14's in the 'Bop and 13s in the Swing.  I adapted to the heavier gauges, but then genuinely found that for my touch ( and with all guitars set to an action of 0.75-1mm at the 17th or last fret ) - the 11s or 12s genuinely sounded better for me ; 'Better' being that I could hear vibrato , false harmonics , string glide and the spaces between the notes far clearer with a lighter gauge.  For me , a lighter gauge enabled the sort of touch dynamics  / ambient subtleties that tend to draw the ear in - especially in the context of a solo act / player.  With my favourite pickups in, I would be using their attributes to full effect, so acoustic volume and / or push from the fingerboard would be surplus to my requirements . Notes just tended to start sounding 'blocky' with heavier gauges .

On the topic of amps ; I fear that Jazz specific threads are non - existent, but I hang around here as the 'Archtop outsider' because the friendliness / balance / community on here eclipses 'other' more Jazz orientated forums . Here again Tom, I can only kick off with my own standpoint:

My all time favourite rig ( which I always refer to as the Soul Mate for the Manhattans ) - is a Henricksen head - and Raezer's edge  2 x 8 cab.  As there are only two Jazz specialist distributors in England - and only one is a true enthusiast's  outlet, we try what little we can lay our hands on. The Henriksen was the Amp 'winner' for me, as it had much more detail than the Jazz-Kat , but with a warmth and depth that delights and surprises. The R.E. 2 x 8 I again bought for detail with warmth. The Emminence 8" cones are very fast to respond, yet rich sounding. All of the above perceptions are of course what I thirst for.

Before that ( and still treasured ! ) is a Phil Jones Cub 100, with ( if needed )  a Fishman Acoustic reverb pedal . Again, don't be put off by a pair of diminutive 5" speakers, it is a little gem.  For most of the time I spend practicing, I have been absolutely delighted by a Roland 'Micro Cube' !  As a result, when I got the chance, I picked up a Cube 60 for back-up , should I ever get the chance to gig with the Jazz project.  I have not tried my archtops through existing Fender 'Twin Amp' -or Laney half stack ( remnants from my modest Soul / Blues gigging days ).

In another thread I credited Joe Pass for his pragmatism, and making me feel that even an amateur 'Shmuck' like me could try to play Chord Melody - here I also find his influence in making me want to squeeeeze a workable tone out of everything from a straight D.I. box . P.A. - through the middle market, right up to the self indulgent purchase of the Hennriksenn/ Razer's Edge rig.  The fact that the seminal " An Evening with Joe Pass" turns out to have been played D.I. through the theatre's own house public address system - made me realise, I had to stop buying stuff, and start WORKING on the music itself.

As with your own ( modest ) comments about " being wracked with self doubt" - I eventually felt that the sheer enormity of the task ahead, was an even better reason to slow down, enjoy the journey,  LOVE the music - and see it as a project I start in my early 50s - and perhaps start to gig anytime between now and my 80s. There is such a purity and relaxing quality ( for the player in their quiet study ) about the whole Chord melody, Mellow Jazz genre - that it becomes an intimately rewarding  relationship ; even if one only seeks to entertain friends after dinner e.t.c.  I came to it relatively late in life - and when I did, it just felt like "coming home" ;  my personal situation(s) having eventually taught me the patience and love of the simple things, that I needed to even start learning.

I must pull my finger out of my ear and take a couple of photos of my 'Rig' and post them in the relevent section ; not as an act of overt pride , but as a declaration of love for the chosen medium - and of course as objects of amusing curiosity for the great majority of our B.K.P. bretheren.

I realise the above will not have brought you conclusive answers Tom, but it at least outlines the limitaions of my experience / ability to do so. The great thing about music study and our part in the 'passion' of it all - is that it is, and always will be :

" Ongoing...".  :)
« Last Edit: February 22, 2011, 12:49:38 PM by Fourth Feline »

tomeo808

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Re: advice on BKPU for '74 L5 CES
« Reply #6 on: February 27, 2011, 12:35:51 AM »
Hello FF,

Forgive the tardiness of this response.

Re: pickup covers: Cosmetic concerns are, in my view, legitimate although I do tend to the more pragmatic.  And I, too, have preferred cables that attenuated the high end (some years ago, I purchased Monster's two top of the line guitar cables and found myself preferring the cheaper one because of the previously mentioned attenuation).  This was also a reason for me switching to flatwounds recently.

Re: strings, agree that a lighter gauge string "enable the sort of touch dynamics  / ambient subtleties that tend to draw the ear in."  I think it's a matter on increased expression based on increased control within the given limits of one's technique. 

Re: amps: Thanks for the feedback about the Jazz-Kat -- I thought I might have been interested.  I most often use a Henricksen (10" combo).  I enjoy it's flat response and the utility of the tone controls.  I sometimes use a "homemade" (by a friend) Raezer's Edge 10" as an extension speaker with the Henriksen.  I also use a powered Yamaha speaker for very small venues; I also find that a powered PA speaker works best with my Johnny Smith.  I confess, however, that I worship at the altar of convenience.  Weight is the most significant concern to me.  I remember buying a Fender Bassman RI with 4 x 10"s that sounded great with my solid bodies and archtops but I never took it out of the house and subsequently sold it because of its weight.  I thought the L5 sounded great with a Twin Reverb (1965 -- many years ago, and with the newer one with the single 15') but .... Getting old is not for sissies.

I have heard a bass player on the job with a Phil Jones and hope to look into the Cub 100 in the future.

I read your thread crediting Joe Pass for his pragmatism, especially in finding "easy" chord fingerings.  In all these discussions, music is the overriding concern.  I recall calling Peter Henriksen after purchasing his amp and saying: "I think your amp sounds great but I still can't play like Jim Hall."  The silence on the phone prompted me to quickly remove tongue from cheek. 

Finally, I tell people that I think I really started to enjoy playing more (maybe even playing "better", relatively) in my early 40's or so when I realized "I am what I am and that's all that I am."  I accepted my limitations and just tried to "play" in all senses of the word.   It's not about competition or being the "best" for me.  Thanks for your insightful ruminations on the "journey."

tom

P.S. Having said that, I am seriously contemplating the indulgent and overreaching purchase of a Yamaha AE 1200 S.  Now, this is the guitar guaranteed to make me play better.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2011, 08:38:11 AM by tomeo808 »

lulusg

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Re: advice on BKPU for '74 L5 CES
« Reply #7 on: February 27, 2011, 03:43:47 AM »
Interesting and informative reading, always fun around this forum!!
Just passing by

Fourth Feline

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Re: advice on BKPU for '74 L5 CES
« Reply #8 on: February 27, 2011, 10:51:47 AM »
Interesting and informative reading, always fun around this forum!!

I'm both surprised and happy to hear that you had found it interesting too.  :)

 It's nice to openly explore all the angles of what we love doing. I was pleasantly surprised that it had attracted  wider attention.  And yes, the B.K.P. forum is ( for me ) the best forum for information, fun and variety. The only one I actually keep bookmarked .

And Hello again Tom !  I enjoyed reading and re-reading your further ruminations and clarification of gear being used e.t.c   You have been playing this stuff professionaly , far longer than I have been even thinking about starting to try !   I can just imagine Peter Henriksenn falling quiet - and not knowing how to take it when you went for the dry humour ;  plus your wonderfully playfull and self satirising ( of us all ) comment that the Yammy Archtop was going to be " The one guaranteed to make you play better ".  How many times have we all driven down that street ! :lol:     I realised that my use of appropriate pickup covers , is less a matter of making the instrument a 'showy' item, but rather in the same way one would use a uniform / mode of dress, to establish an almost ritual 'Right attitude' at the outset of each practice or rendition. I even spray a touch of a favourite cologne - or sweet essential oils in my sound holes, to perculate out as I hold the  'furniture' close to my chest.  Crazy, but works for me .  

The ongoing development and use of the subtle fingerboard technique is also ( I find ) a great device in helping me learn / execute chord melody - as it also facilitates swifter movement of the fretting hand  between the chord voicings .  There again, it was a casual comment once overheard  - that planted the ( late flowering ) seed of that for me.  I was in a local Guitar shop back in about 1978, when a much in demand ( and very affable  ) session guitarist was sat trying second hand gear out.  The owner of the shop asked him what attributes made him look at a fellow musician - and deem them likely to be a 'Professional' ;  his spontanious answer was :

" The touch, they have a light touch".

Of course years later, one eventually responds to a subtle influence like that - and also find it adds to the relaxing / therapeutic quality of our great hobby / love.

Well, it's time to work on a couple of 'new ' numbers - and of course Practice, practice , practice whilst the cat is asleep .  

Have a good week - and thanks again for inspiring me by sharing your own passion and insights for our chosen quest.

Huli pau  !  
« Last Edit: February 27, 2011, 11:11:44 AM by Fourth Feline »

Philly Q

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Re: advice on BKPU for '74 L5 CES
« Reply #9 on: February 27, 2011, 11:43:02 AM »
Fascinating thread gents, even from an "outsider" perspective!  :)
BKPs I've Got:  RR, BKP-91, ITs, VHII, CS set, Emeralds
BKPs I Had:  RY+Abraxas, Crawlers, BD+SM

tomeo808

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Re: advice on BKPU for '74 L5 CES
« Reply #10 on: April 06, 2011, 12:01:57 PM »
Hello FF,
I ordered my BK Stormy Monday over a month ago, received and had the pickup installed about 4 days ago.  I preface my comments by saying I am not a quick study when it comes to evaluating equipment.  It takes me about a month on the job before I can make anything like a sound judgment and even longer if I don't gig with the equipment regularly.  I should also re-read some of your comments elsewhere on this forum for a more nuanced response but I have been anxious to share my impressions of the BK Stormy Monday with you. 
I must confess to some initial disappointment in that while I noticed a "difference" in tone, I wasn't sure the difference was necessarily better.  It was this tonal difference that I really noticed with the Stormy Mondays when I played my friend's Gibson Dot Neck Reissue equipped with Stormy Mondays.  But as I have spent more time with the pickup (a few days of practice), I came to appreciate it as a fine product not just for the tonal difference it made, although you could liken this tonal distinction to a arbitrary preference for chocolate over vanilla, but also because it is a more "musical" pickup in the sense that it possesses more dynamic range than any other pickup I've had in the L-5.  There is a greater range of volume available just by controlling your picking hand.  The pickup is also more "revealing," I think, because of this increased dynamic range with attendant greater sustain.  It is not forgiving in the way that a compressor would be, squashing dynamic range and "evening out" the attack on the instrument.  I think this would also make for a more tactile/touch-sensitive interaction with any amp.
I'm still not done with tinkering with pickup height and the tonal differences those adjustments may have but my initial impression is that this issue of dynamic range is the preeminent virtue of the BKSM.

lulusg

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Re: advice on BKPU for '74 L5 CES
« Reply #11 on: April 06, 2011, 08:42:34 PM »
Enjoyed the review of your initial impression, this "discovering".
Just passing by

38thBeatle

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Re: advice on BKPU for '74 L5 CES
« Reply #12 on: April 06, 2011, 10:15:32 PM »
Interesting. I enjoyed reading that.

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BKP's: Apache, Country Boy, Slowhands.

Telerocker

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Re: advice on BKPU for '74 L5 CES
« Reply #13 on: April 06, 2011, 11:00:35 PM »
great stuff here.
Mules, VHII, Crawler, MM's, IT's, BG50's.