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Author Topic: SG vs V. Generally speaking  (Read 3605 times)

JimmyMoorby

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SG vs V. Generally speaking
« on: March 25, 2015, 02:29:27 PM »
Having joined a new band i''m evaluating whether or not I need to get a new guitar or modify existing ones to get the right sound. My Les Paul with black hawks sounds epic but my others just cant compete with it for the style of music we play. 2 im considering buying are an SG or a V.

Now I know guitars can vary tonally even when comparing one SG to another SG but generally speaking in terms of sound alone are SG's and V's quite similar sounding or not??

Not interested in feel or anything just sound.

Would really appreciate some advice.  Cheers

Dave Sloven

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Re: SG vs V. Generally speaking
« Reply #1 on: March 25, 2015, 03:00:07 PM »
I can't say that I've compared an SG with a V but I've compared a SG with an Explorer, which I think most people would say is closer to a V than an SG.

The Explorer is much darker, with more bass and sustain.  The SG is brighter, much more focused in the mids, and much more resonant.  The Explorer needs a brighter, middier pickup to balance it (e.g., Rebel Yell, Painkiller).  The SG needs the opposite: a scooped pickup with a good amount of bottom end (e.g., Cold Sweat, Miracle Man).  I know this from using the same A-Bomb in both guitars.

I have also compared my A-Pig in an SG and an Explorer.  The A-Pig is much too dark and bassy for an Explorer, and I pulled it out after only a few months and replaced it with the A-Bomb. The A-Pig sounds great in my SG Special. The extra resonance of the SG brings out what brightness is in the mids of the A-Pig and the bottom end of the pickups works well to add much-needed bass for a throaty roar.

I hope this helps.

SGs also kick butt with Stockholm P-90s.
BLACK HAWKS
IMPULSES
COBRA-T
WAR PIGS
STOCKHOLM
COLD SWEATS
MIRACLE MAN
TRUE GRIT

https://slovendoom.bandcamp.com/releases

JimmyMoorby

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Re: SG vs V. Generally speaking
« Reply #2 on: March 25, 2015, 03:28:07 PM »
I can't say that I've compared an SG with a V but I've compared a SG with an Explorer, which I think most people would say is closer to a V than an SG.

The Explorer is much darker, with more bass and sustain.  The SG is brighter, much more focused in the mids, and much more resonant.  The Explorer needs a brighter, middier pickup to balance it (e.g., Rebel Yell, Painkiller).  The SG needs the opposite: a scooped pickup with a good amount of bottom end (e.g., Cold Sweat, Miracle Man).  I know this from using the same A-Bomb in both guitars.

I have also compared my A-Pig in an SG and an Explorer.  The A-Pig is much too dark and bassy for an Explorer, and I pulled it out after only a few months and replaced it with the A-Bomb. The A-Pig sounds great in my SG Special. The extra resonance of the SG brings out what brightness is in the mids of the A-Pig and the bottom end of the pickups works well to add much-needed bass for a throaty roar.

I hope this helps.

SGs also kick butt with Stockholm P-90s.

Cheers for that.

It does and it doesn;t to be fair because i've paid attention to what you said about SG's in the past and the pickups that would suit it if I were to get one but i'm not interested in explorers.

SG's, Explorers and Les Pauls have their own sound for sure but i'm wondering if V's and SG's are actually quite similar??

MDV

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Re: SG vs V. Generally speaking
« Reply #3 on: March 25, 2015, 06:28:22 PM »
The general wisdom is the more mass in a big circle (or approximation) you have in a lump round the bridge, the more low end you're gonna get. More or less.

The bridge on a V is in the middle of the V. The bridge on an SG is in the middle of a big circly thing. Explorers in terms of resonance are actually closer to SGs and LPs than Vs because the bridge is in the middle of a huge chunk of wood.

The V shape tends toward resonance in higher modes and with less efficient vibration transmission. Too much air round the bridge, and the resonance of the V shape tends toward higher frequency modes than does a huge slab of wood (it's basically divided in two for a start). Expect them to, all things being equal, be middier and brighter.

That said, I'm sure agent oranges ears aren't lying to him (by similar logic, explorers should have a huge low end but also some additional resonant modes compared to SGs and LPs in the high mids) - such is the magnitude of the influence of the quality of each given piece of wood and the standard to which they're made into a guitar.

Bottom line is only make concrete judgements about the exact guitar that's in your hands, but the rules of thumb for the effect of the body shapes all else equal is that Vs will give more mids, high mids and top end, SGs more lows.
« Last Edit: March 25, 2015, 06:31:31 PM by MDV »

JimmyMoorby

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Re: SG vs V. Generally speaking
« Reply #4 on: March 25, 2015, 10:17:31 PM »
Cheers for that.  I think my next guitar will be an SG

Brow

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Re: SG vs V. Generally speaking
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2015, 10:38:25 PM »
I'll bring my SG when I fetch my Jackson mate, let you see what you think.
Selling lots of gear, enquire within!......

Dave Sloven

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Re: SG vs V. Generally speaking
« Reply #6 on: March 26, 2015, 01:15:38 AM »
Explorers are twice as thick as SGs.

Also my Explorer has a '50s neck whereas my SGs have '60s necks.  The necks probably resonate differently.  The neck joint on an SG is also quite unique.  There are actually a lot of unique design factors on an SG that make their sound quite specific.  The thinness of the body seems to have a big effect.

The Explorer has a lot of mass behind the bridge compared to the SG.  I don't know how this relates to Vs but I have seen people recommend the same pickups (e.g., Rebel Yells) for both Vs and Explorers.  RYs are too deficient in bass for SGs.
BLACK HAWKS
IMPULSES
COBRA-T
WAR PIGS
STOCKHOLM
COLD SWEATS
MIRACLE MAN
TRUE GRIT

https://slovendoom.bandcamp.com/releases

MDV

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Re: SG vs V. Generally speaking
« Reply #7 on: March 26, 2015, 02:06:15 AM »
My thinnest bodied guitar produces the most low end of my guitars, and it's a 35mm thick superstrat, same thickness as an SG. The second most low end is from an slightly thinner guitar thats also slightly smaller. Explorers are 41mm thick. ~15% thicker, not 100%. Thick (and therefore pure mass) matters, but less than shape, imo, especially when the difference is so small. It's about the guitars resonant modes. There are a shiteload between the bridge and nut that dominate, but the modes the body shape allows must be in the tone to some extent, and those the body shape denies must be diminished to some extent. Pointy appendages on guitars take on high mid modes, wide slabs and round shapes, low modes. Explorers have both a wide chunk of wood taking on low modes and pointier elements taking on high modes. Anecdotally, explorers are noted for low end and high mid cut. Vs are all pointier appendages, in a shape that denies the body any single mode that crosses its whole width, and SGs are mostly round slab, albeit small one with a quite freely vibrating neck.

The wood quality probably matters as much, but as more of a filter: if the guitar shape is trying to produce frequencies the wood is absorbing, you don't hear them. Pretty sure this affects high end first. Similar story with sloppy set necks with too much glue (gibson standard MO - they're less likely to make a good join than bad one in my experience). This obviously muddies things, sonically and in discerning whats affecting what in the sound.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 02:12:10 AM by MDV »

Dave Sloven

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Re: SG vs V. Generally speaking
« Reply #8 on: March 26, 2015, 04:18:09 AM »
It's difficult to say what causes what.

The Explorer also has that long cavity under the pickguard.  Not sure how that effects things.

I just go by my ears.

What I can tell you is that SGs are much more focused in the mids.  The A-Bomb calmed down a lot when it was moved from the SG Standard to the Explorer, and the A-Pig sound much more open and less dark in the SG Special than in the Explorer.

The SG is also much more comfortable compared to any other guitar I have played. Some people complain that the low end of the neck feels further away, but I am a big guy so I don't notice it.  What I do notice is the thinner body.  I find Les Pauls and Telecasters to be uncomfortable to play.  I think the orientation of the neck actually helps, in that I don't have to bring my arm in so tight to my body to reach the high frets.

If an SG has Grover rotomatics it will be neck heavy.  When I fitted Grovers to my SG Junior I had to fit acrylic replacement tuner buttons.  That fixed the problem. But really the comfort thing really depends on the individual.  For me the SG is perfect.  Other people hate them.  It's a case of try it and see.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 04:27:37 AM by Agent Orange »
BLACK HAWKS
IMPULSES
COBRA-T
WAR PIGS
STOCKHOLM
COLD SWEATS
MIRACLE MAN
TRUE GRIT

https://slovendoom.bandcamp.com/releases

JimmyMoorby

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Re: SG vs V. Generally speaking
« Reply #9 on: March 26, 2015, 11:55:24 AM »
Cheers for that lads.

I've got my heart set on an SG.  I just had a conversation with Ben about what pickups to get for an SG as a backup/alternate guitar to go with my Gibson Les Paul with a-hawks,  I told him i'm going for a 'white snake on steroids type tone'.

He told me strictly speaking to get black hawks again for continuity (Makes sense) but as I want something slightly different he suggested a juggernaut bridge which ill go for at some point.  I also have a fat pat lying around from another brand which ill stick in with it.

I remember the SG craig so no mither.....maybe we could go guitar shopping tuesday though!

Dave Sloven

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Re: SG vs V. Generally speaking
« Reply #10 on: March 26, 2015, 02:49:16 PM »
Juggernauts should be able to get close to Whitesnake on steroids.

I've never read a report of those in an SG so I am interested to see how you go.
BLACK HAWKS
IMPULSES
COBRA-T
WAR PIGS
STOCKHOLM
COLD SWEATS
MIRACLE MAN
TRUE GRIT

https://slovendoom.bandcamp.com/releases

JimmyMoorby

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Re: SG vs V. Generally speaking
« Reply #11 on: March 26, 2015, 03:20:51 PM »
Juggernauts should be able to get close to Whitesnake on steroids.

I've never read a report of those in an SG so I am interested to see how you go.

I've never heard of it either but remember Tim saying the Juggs have lots of mids but slightly less hi mids so transferring that logic from a previously unrelated conversation they should fit together.

Spoke to Ben today about either warpigs or juggs in an SG to compete with the hawks in a les paul and although he said he'd put more black hawks in an SG for a strict backup guitar if i wanted variety (Which I do) then Juggs could hold their own and be a little different.  I'll be sure to report my findings.  Getting excited  :cheesy:
« Last Edit: March 26, 2015, 03:33:19 PM by JimmyMoorby »