cheap speakers vs expensive speakers

[indysmith]

Technically guitar amps and speakers are all appalling quality, in a HiFi context. Amps distort ridiculously, whilst producing far from an accurate representation of the signal from the pickups (which is more often than not a flawed signal anyway, due to the pickups being designed to respond more to some frequencies than others), this complete mess is then sent out to some absolutely rubbish speakers made of PAPER!

Guitar tone is about what sounds good (in a historical context), and has very little to do with using high-quality components. Where live sound and studio sound and hifi sound are constantly evolving, guitar amplification has always been stuck in the 1940s/50s.
There's absolutely no reason that a cheap guitar speaker should sound any different to an expensive guitar speaker; none of the speakers are technically 'better', because their task is not to provide an accurate representation of the signal from the amplifier. The task of any guitar speaker is to mimic the guitar sounds we've heard on countless records since the 1940s.

I don't think I agree with this sentiment. If you plug a guitar straight into a HiFi for amplification, it sounds rubbish. That's because it's the blending of overtones and distortion that you get from a guitar amp/speakers enriches the sound, making it more pleasurable to our ears.
Of course, if your argument is that what we decide is "pleasurable to our ears" is solely based on the historical context of guitar amplification throughout the last 60 years, then I see where you're coming from, but still disagree. Subjective opinions based on past experience are one thing, and very difficult to quantify or even qualify. However, objective opinions based on direct comparison (for example between a guitar amplifier and a HiFi amplifier), while they can never be separated from our subjective opinions, do in all cases I have witnessed lead to the conclusion that guitars sound better through guitar amps than HiFi amps.

Sometimes the best component for a job is not the most expensive!

Roo

I wasn't saying that we should all be plugging into HiFi amps and speakers.
All i was saying is that what we call high-quality in guitar terms is in fact often very low quality in a general context. (i.e. A vintage greenback may be highly prized by a guitar player, but in reality all it is a very poor paper driver, that was only made the way it was because it was cheap and easy.)
It just so happened that people liked that sound, and it's what stuck. Obviously sound is subjective and guitar players on the whole (including myself) favor an extremely low-fidelity sound from their amp.
There's no technical reason one shitety paper speaker designed for an MG amp shouldn't sound better than a shitety paper speaker designed for a far "higher quality" amp. They're made of basically the same stuff, with minor differences in the magnets and coils used.

[Roobubba]

Which brings me back to my final point, that for a guitar application a paper speaker isn't, in fact, shitety. Different tools for different jobs and all that :)
Look at Hartke bass speakers, with the aluminium cones. They aren't necessarily any nicer than "normal" bass speakers, but I bet they cost a lot more to produce. Just because something is fairly cheap and easy to make, doesn't make it shite.

Roo

[nfe]

Which brings me back to my final point, that for a guitar application a paper speaker isn't, in fact, shitety. Different tools for different jobs and all that :)
Look at Hartke bass speakers, with the aluminium cones. They aren't necessarily any nicer than "normal" bass speakers, but I bet they cost a lot more to produce. Just because something is fairly cheap and easy to make, doesn't make it shitee.

Roo

Err, isn't that exactly what Indysmith has been saying? That cheap doesn't nesecarily mean shitee?

That's how I was reading it anyhow.

[indysmith]

Err, isn't that exactly what Indysmith has been saying?

Yep :)

[Roobubba]

Doh :)

[jpfamps]

I can't really understand why the cheaper retail price Chinese-made Celestion 12" loudspeakers, eg the Hot 100 should sound any "worse" than the more expensive speakers, as they cost virtually the same to make. They all use the same baskets, motor units, suspensions. I also suspect the use the same voice coils and pole pieces, and use either 35oz or 50oz magnets. They probably use different cones, but I suspect that these will be very similarly priced.

It does beg the question why there is such a big price difference between a G12T-100 and a G12M. I suspect it is not due to the coat of paint on the basket and the plastic cover........

The quality of the cone makes a huge difference to the sound, however as pointed out above, the price difference between a really good cone and a poor one is not that great, although many manufacturers still seem to want to always go for the cheapest option.

An area where cost can be cut is in the pole piece/ motor unit alignment. For high efficiency, the voice coil gap should be as small as possible, however this means that the pole piece/ motor units need to be machined (and assembled) to very high tolerances, and that the alignment of the voice coil needs to be very accurate. Both these criterion add significantly to the cost.

The argument in differences in quality of hi-fi and guitar speakers is spurious. The original G12 speaker was developed in the 50s as an efficient (amplifier power was low) loudspeaker for general use, the fact it turned out to sound great for guitar is purely a coincidence.

Speaker efficiency was important and can be increased by increasing the magnetic field strength in the voice coil gap; however there is a significant trade off with bandwidth, so hi-fi speakers are typically 10 -15 db (most are around 85 db at 1 W) less efficient that guitar (or indeed PA) speakers (95-100 db at 1 W). Additionally, very few hi-fi speakers have a 12" driver in them,  and the cabinets they are closed-backed and non resident, so you aren't really comparing like with like.

Furthermore, you definitely don't want a tweeter in a guitar amp!

[TwilightOdyssey]

I Additionally, very few hi-fi speakers have a 12" driver in them,  and the cabinets they are closed-backed and non resident, so you aren't really comparing like with like.

Oh, they exist, but to do it right costs a lot.  PDT_006

[Elliot]

Wasn't that the Emperor Dalek's control centre from Dr Who?

[JJretroTONEGOD]

Which brings me back to my final point, that for a guitar application a paper speaker isn't, in fact, shitety. Different tools for different jobs and all that :)
Look at Hartke bass speakers, with the aluminium cones. They aren't necessarily any nicer than "normal" bass speakers, but I bet they cost a lot more to produce. Just because something is fairly cheap and easy to make, doesn't make it shitee.

Roo

I hate to go off subject but the Hartke Bass speakers really do sound bad, the bassist in my band uses them, they are horrid, we keep telling telling him 'you eediott james get and ampegg, get one now, you eeeeediot'

[nfe]

Which brings me back to my final point, that for a guitar application a paper speaker isn't, in fact, shitety. Different tools for different jobs and all that :)
Look at Hartke bass speakers, with the aluminium cones. They aren't necessarily any nicer than "normal" bass speakers, but I bet they cost a lot more to produce. Just because something is fairly cheap and easy to make, doesn't make it shitee.

Roo

I hate to go off subject but the Hartke Bass speakers really do sound bad, the bassist in my band uses them, they are horrid, we keep telling telling him 'you eediott james get and ampegg, get one now, you eeeeediot'

Unless he spends £1500 on something that also says SVT on the front, it's still gonna sound garbage  

Ampeg have done a spectacular job of staying in business off the back of one good amp whilst releasing nothing but cr@p since.

IMO of course  :lol:

[mikeluke]

Just about on topic - spotted these on eVilBay if anyone is looking to put together a 2x12 cab or even a 1 x 12 cab/replacement and flog the other one! Really nice speakers - and before you ask I am not the guy selling them, nor do I know the guy selling them - but I do have one of these in m Peavey Classic 30!

http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/2-New-Eminence-Governor-75W-guitar-speakers-16ohm-Boxed_W0QQitemZ200231173398QQihZ010QQcategoryZ23794QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Mike