Author Topic: How HOT is HOT? (Read 10226 times)

skay · « **Reply #15 on:** October 23, 2005, 08:51:57 PM »

Oh, just realised I didn't answer the 'valve' question. I have EI elites in the preamp section for rehearsal and gigs ( I find them to be very chimey and Telefunken-like in their vibe), I like to save the Mullard for recordings and special occaisions. I keep the Mullard GZ34 in there as I find that helps with the 'sagging' and overall quality of break-up.

I have tried other guitars through the Vox and they sound fine so 'Old' valves etc are not the reason, It would have been so much easier if they were!

I have a Fender Twin, Laney Gh100l and Vox AC15TBX and the Les Paul sounds unfocused through all of these amps when overdriven, so I can count out the amp as being a prime factor.

Tim · « **Reply #16 on:** October 23, 2005, 09:38:21 PM »

Hi Steve,

just got your mail and also picked up on this thread.I'm not 100% convinced this is a Mule problem as they're closer to a PAF than just about anything you can buy, B Bs in particular!
BBs do have AII but the BBPros also have AVs which can be brighter. Now as for mush, like HJM rightly says, AII is the king of mush..........I use AIV Mules in an original '70 Goldtop in the Ozzy tribute I do, obviously mush wouldn't really do in this situation :D and as the Mule clip in the demo room along with all the other guys Mule demos abley demonstrate, they're not mush monsters, far from it, they're really defined right down into the bass - clean or overdriven.
So what we need to do is get these back, let me check them again myself in one of my LPs to make sure we're all singing from the same hymn book and then proceed from there.
A brighter PAF tone would be Riff Raff with AVs or Stormy Mondays even.
I expect that the BBs you have are all sub DC8K and AII hence the slightly scooped mid and edgey highs.Into an amp eq'ed for this, ie with more bottom to roll out the highs ,the more powerful Mules will force the amp into break up alot quicker especially as you're running the master flat out.
This doesn't explain the neck tone though as the Mule neck is as open as I can wind a humbucker neck...........funnily enough the email after yours was a customer called Terry who was on a quest for the ultimate clarity from a neck humbucker and having tried all the Burstbuckers, SDs etc went for a Stormy Monday and found what he thought was unattainable-clarity in a LP neck slot!The Stormy Neck is only mariginally lower in DC than a Mule and they both have the same wire and same AIV magnet.
Whatever happens I'll get you sorted Steve so don't worry and you can always give me a call anytime if you want to go through the options. :D

HJM · « **Reply #17 on:** October 23, 2005, 10:17:04 PM »

One thing we've all missed - the wiring on the guitar, You won't believe what a poor solder joint will do to guitar tone. Try a rewire, possibly even new pots too, it often really transforms a guitar!

Oh - I wasn't criticising your gear - just wanted to get rid of all external possibilities first! :P

PhilKing · « **Reply #18 on:** October 23, 2005, 10:53:39 PM »

I'm coming in a little late here, but I was just playing my Les Paul with Riff Raff and AIV Stormy Monday and I think I have the sound you are after! I have a Les Paul with a Mule neck as well, and it is very clear but drives a bit more than the Stormy Monday.

What strings are you using? If you are trying different strings, they could also be the culprits.

skay · « **Reply #19 on:** October 24, 2005, 10:38:58 AM »

Cheers guys for all the helpful replies!

I'm not the greatest in the world with a soldering iron, but the job I did on my pickups was a good clean join. The pots used on the post 2003 Historics are CTS so I wasn't planning on 'upgrading' them, unless anuone else has experience of these pots and I could infact do better?

The tone stack on the Vox AC30 is very interactive and adding more of one frequency cuts another, so maybe my BB's were being compensated for by the amp, and it's only when I have a set of 'clear' pickups in there I'm hearing the real story. Vox amps are known for their strong upper mids, so this could explain what I'm hearing, the scooped mids were filled in by the Vox with the BB's, but with a 'normal' mid on the Mule the mids were too high and there is no 'mid' dial on a Vox!!!

I've heard that real P.A.F's are harder to work with and take a alittle bit more to get the best out of them, but that still doesn't change the fact that I do not like what I'm achieving sound-wise.

Tim has offered to test them for me, I can install the BB's back in and re-evaluate. If the sound is still 'mushy' and lacks definition then I'm really in trouble, but if 'my sound' is back again then I atleast have something to work from.

Ratrod · « **Reply #20 on:** October 24, 2005, 12:27:26 PM »

Well, if the guitar sounds mushy after you've re-installed the BB's, it will be safe to say it's a wiring problem or a broken pot.

skay · « **Reply #21 on:** October 25, 2005, 07:55:45 AM »

Well a broken pot would be the best reason I could hope for! I will have to wait till next sunday at band practice to hear my guitar through my amp again though...

The suggestion of a Riff Raff sounds intertesting, I read last night that they are alnico 2 magnets in those, so that could get me back closer to the sound I liked. When I'm reading through the specs of Riff Raffs, Stormy Mondays or Mules it starts getting confusing. They all have options to change the magnet type so when I hear a suggestion of a particular pickup it is difficult to work out what type of pickup is being spoken about.

I was reading the reviews on harmony central and the very first review of the 'Stormy Monday' struck me as very promising... The guy stated his pickup was alnico 2 with a DC of 7.2k and he commented on it being around the same output as a stock P.A.F he has on another Les Paul. He was dubious that a pickup with only DC 7.2K would be powerful enough but was rewarded with the most pleasing tone apparently. Could this be what I'm looking for? The alnico 2 magnet to calm the mids and the low DC to tame the front end driving of my amp?

I was thinking about my Mules last night and I guess I didn't really mess around with the amps eq enough. I used it for 2 band rehearsals and at home through a GT5 effects processor. I thought the BB's were P.A.F clones and so were the Mules, so I wasn't expecting to have to radically change the way I set up my amp. It took me a good 4 or 5 weeks to 'dial-in' my Les Paul after using the Vox with my Rickenbacker, so maybe a bit of extra work eq-ing may have helped to reduce this clarity issue aswell?

Tim sounds like he knows his onions, so I'm pretty confident that he will come up with the perfect solution of what pickup is ideal and what I need to do, and to be honest, I wouldn't be surprised if I was part of the problem :lol:

Tim · « **Reply #22 on:** October 25, 2005, 01:20:02 PM »

A common misconception with PAFs is to confuse them or the term with generic humbuckers. A true PAF is the humbucker Gibson made from '57 until their patent was granted in early '60....these are PAFs.From then on through the '60s the humbuckers actually had a patent no. on the back and are refered to as such(the build is quite different too).
Real PAFs varied hugely in both tone and output.Anything from DC7.2K through to DC9K and Alnico II,III or IV magnets(ALnico V wasn't used until Gibson got the patent).Although not widely known about ,Alnico IV PAFs seem to have the best tone whereas Alnico II and III aren't so desireable.
How do we know about ALnicoIV?Having original magnets analysed and also from Gibson's own ordering inventories which clearly show Alnico IV being specifically ordered and used.
What I've tried to do when recreating this early tone is provide the best from the DC range hence the Stormy Monday in the lower DC range, The Mule in the mid range and Riff Raff(now AV)for the crossover to patent no. era.
All feature plain enamel wire and offset coils.......the only 'tweak' is we scatterwind ours simply because it opens the highs out even more.
Guitar construction varies alot so no single pickup will ever guarantee the best 'do all' tone however one of these three should hit the mark in most aplications.There's no such thing as a bad pickup just the wrong one for the job in hand and that's where we come in, hopefully pairing you and your guitar up with the right pickups. :D

PhilKing · « **Reply #23 on:** October 25, 2005, 01:27:19 PM »

Hi, the new Riff Raff is Alnico V. My Stormy Monday is Alnico IV. This combination gives a very Peter Green sound with both pickups on. The Alnico IV is a bit like the II but more musical - it is a bit sweeter sounding.

The Riff Raff is a little bright, but I think that helps cut through at a gig. The Stormy Monday is the old Paul Kossoff mellow PAF sound, and can give almost a Strat bell tone at times.

I really love this combination, but guitars are funny. What suits one might not suit another, even thought they are the same make and style. Wood does vary a lot and really alter the response. I got these as a set from Tim, but I had already put an Emerald and Mule set on this guitar. I actually really liked that set on it too, but wanted to try another set to see how they would sound. The Emerald/Mule set are on my Goldtop and work great on there. I am going to try one more set on this Les Paul because I always wanted to hear the Black Dog. I will put the Riff Raff/Stormy Monday into my 335 for that Alvin Lee/Clapton tone.