Apaches - can't get them to sound good

[mrawlins]

Thanks a million to all of you for the really superb replies.

Well I'm not sure where to take this now, as I live in China I can't take it back to Vintage & Rare for a checkup any time soon.

For this reason I also can't replace components one by one and I don't feel that confident with a soldering iron anyway but I suppose I could redo a few contacts. The solder joint on the claw looks ok and is certainly well attached to the claw itself.

I can try cutting or desoldering the wire from the bridge pickup baseplate as well but I can't see this making everything ok.

I think first of all I'm going to put the original pickups back in and see what % of this I can attribute to the pickups and how much to the guitar itself.  It will take a while as I need to get them sent from the UK but I will post an update when I can.

@ AndyR, the black patch is a barcode ID sealed in wax or varnish.

Thanks again!

Martin

[tomjackson]

Just a though, could you post a short clean clip going through the pickup selections.  I'm sure the Apache guys would be able tell if that's how they should sound.

[mrawlins]

Just a though, could you post a short clean clip going through the pickup selections.  I'm sure the Apache guys would be able tell if that's how they should sound.

Yes, here's a clip of the neck pickup which I think shows what I consider an unpleasant attack and also the weak B and top E strings.

The other PU combinations have this too but it's most obvious on the neck.

Actually since my last post I raised all the pickups much closer to the strings which did improve the overall sound and output level quite a lot but these other issues are still there. Here's the chain:

Strat > Peavey Delta Blues (30 watt valve amp, 15" speaker) > AKG C414 6" from grill > LA-610 > RME FF800

Here's the audio: http://soundcloud.com/martin_rawlins/strat-neck-pu-akg-c414

[tomjackson]

I see what you mean, I've not owned apaches but it's almost as if when you dig in a bad contact is preventing some of the body of the note to get through.  Towards the end it sounds a bit better when you don't hit the strings as hard, from about 20 secs.

My guess would be a bad contact somewhere, a dry joint or damaged wire.  Could even be a pot.

You could try wiring the neck pickup directly to the output and see how that sounds, it will be brighter but you should be able to tell the inherent qualities of the pickup. 

Might be a bit of messing about but it will really be worth it when you get them working!

[Zaned]

The advice about wiring the pickup straigh to the pot is an excellent one; I'm under the impression that they all sound 'bad', so I doubt the pickups themselves are malfunctioning. It's rore likely something on the other components, maybe volume pot or its connections? The pickups are all connected to the volume pot, I assume.

It's sure annoying to remove and screw on the pickguard lots of times; it's best if you can somehow by a multimeter  or otherwise determine that the output from the output jack is what it should be. Maybe someone with more experience on measuring these things could chime in.

-Zaned

[38thBeatle]

Hmm difficult to put my finger on that but I hear what you mean about the pick attack. I can only think of a compromised joint or as has been said, a faulty pot maybe. Sorry, I am not a lot of help.

[WhiteRam]

Ok, now we're getting somewhere.  We might be able to eliminate both tone pots and the capacitor and the solder/wire connections to the fore-mentioned, why?, because we know the bridge pickup has the same problem and that little sweetie does not run through the tone pots if it's wired traditionally.   :)   We can elimanate it is the pickups, because it is highly unlikely all three Apaches have the same fault.

We are now narrowed down to the switch, volume pot, jack, and their connections too.  Since we know it does it on all 3 pickups we can also eliminate the pickup's ground wires going to the back of the volume pot.

Again this leaves us with the switch, volume pot, jack, and their connections.  Now I don't think it's the switch itself, because all 3 pickups do this so the odds of the switch having a weak connection in all 3 (or 5) positions is highly unlikely, and the pickup's hot wire connections to the switch are probably good because the odds of all three hot wires to the switch being weak are highly unlikely.

Here are the connections that need to be checked &/or re-soldered - 1. The hot wire from the switch to the volume pot's outer lug. 2. The hot wire that connects both master hot tabs on the switch itself. 3. The ground wire from the volume pot to the jack.  4.  The hot wire from the volume pot's center lug to the jack. 5. The volume pot itself. 6. The jack itself.  

I strongly feel it will be solved in one of those 6 steps.  Wiring straight to the Jack is a good start, and if you have an extra volume pot, there's no need to install it but wire it straight from the pickup to the pot and then to the jack.

I'm betting strongly this is a faulty volume pot or the jack, the jacks used if it was MIM are junk.  If you get a soldering tool, make it a small 25w and use the chisel or flat-head screwdriver tip, liquid flux is your best friend to help the solder flow.  You can clean it all up when you're done with q-tips and isopropyl alcohol 90%, and she'll look all pretty when your done.

Using an ohm meter, the Apache's neck should read about 4.5 to 5.0 at the output jack with the tone and volume controls set to max.  Good luck.  :)

WR

[mrawlins]

Wow, ok so you all agree the clip doesn't sound like Apaches should?

It's kind of disappointing to spend close to £200 (over that including postage and installation) on "the best" to find they've not been working properly all along and I need to take a soldering iron to it and troubleshoot all these components as someone who has never soldered before.

I can do it, I'm a man :lol: but being in China makes it impossible to do anything about it if something goes wrong and surely I will destroy any guarantee (is there a guarantee?) or resale possibility.

Of course I defer to your collective and individual greater knowledge that a poor solder contact would suck all the tone out of the guitar, but my laymans gut feeling would be that either it would work or not. The jack may be bad quality but isn't a contact a contact?

Right now I'm more inclined to put the old system back in with it's "poor quality components" (that work) than to tinker with this one... certainly I can't take it back to Vintage and Rare any time soon.

But this knowledge is very, very useful and at least now I know what steps I can take or direct someone else to take for me in the future.

Many thanks.

PS incidentally I ordered a new tremolo block from Callaham a few days ago to try and improve the tone, I could have added a new jack to the order... doh! Actually on reflection I don't think it's the jack as the original pickups sounded fine.

[MDV]

Would or would not - You can be forgiven for thinking so, I have in the past: I cant hear the clip now, but the first time I encountered a 'partial contact' (wire that was making contact, completing the circuit, but only by a couple of threads) I knew something was wrong because I knew that the pickup worked and what it sounded like. I saw the dodgy contact and pretty much dismissed it: 'Its completing the circuit and we arent dealing with high currents or voltages here, sloppy but should be fine'. So I thought.

I was wrong. I didnt expect it to do anything, but I resoldered it anyway, just to be neat and thorough, and the guitar sounded exactly as it should.

My best guess is you have something similar; maybe a solder join, maybe within a component. I'll check the clip later and see if it sounds like what I heard.

[WhiteRam]

You could get a 'dummy pot' and some wire and just practice over and over again solder and un-soldering to the lugs, back of pot, and get an understanding and feel for soldering and using flux.  You'll have an understanding and feel for it in about an hour or 2.

I have the full Callaham bridge assembly, I'm excellent at soldering, however installing that bridge took much more precision than soldering, you have to precisionly set those 6 fulcrum point screws or the bridge will never perform correctly.  Plus, you'll still have to solder that ground wire on the new claw (don't forget about scr@ping/filing the nickle plating at your contact point).  However when you're done, that bridge is world class in every way. . . tone, appearance,  and function.

You could email whoever built the pickguard assembly, include a link this thread so they can see the pics and the sincerity of your problem.  Ship it to them and get it fixed.  I should include that even though that jack was fine with your other assembly, it doesn't mean it's not bad now or its connections.

I do feel your frustrations, been there many times myself.  This is science, engineering, and humanity. . . even the best fail at times.

WR

[MDV]

Alright, hearing the clip I dont think its wired out of phase, and its certainly not disconnected at one end, and you should be looking for a duff join or pot/switch, possibly a short.

Wire it straight to jack to find what the 'true' sound of the pickups is by all means, it is a very good idea. Bear in mind that will be quite a lot brighter still than if they were on a load (pots). But if its warmer and bassier like that then you know
A: the pickups are fine
B: theres a problem somewhere in the wiring.

As an outside chance, as it does sound more like a proper guitar than I guessed from description, the setup of the guitar may not be optimal - if the action is very low (I mean very low, a mil or less) or the pickups are very close to the string, that can choke a lot of body out of the sound, and we all just *might* be barking up the wrong tree with the electronics.

So; acoustically, is the guitar thin and tinny, or does it have a decent low end?

[mrawlins]

Hi, yes the action was quite low, although acoustically it sounds fine and slightly louder than my Squier.

I raised the action a little bit on the saddles and did a 1/4 turn on the truss rod to give a little more relief in the neck but the "clipping sound" is still quite prominent when I dig in. The action is well over 1mm but I think I need to take the neck off and do a further 1/4 turn as the neck is still probably too straight. If I fret the first fret and the 21st fret the top E won't vibrate in between, it hits the frets. The B and all the other strings do resonate when I do this though.

I've tried different pickup positions and right now I'd say the pole pieces are on average about equidistant between the scratchplate and the strings, so about 4mm from the strings.

I'm also going to install this tremolo block (not bridge replacement just the block) when it arrives and see if it helps with the tone, after that I will try wiring straight to the jack and when my old pickups get here from the UK I'll try to do an A/B recording when I get a chance to swap them over.

See you here again in a few weeks I hope.

Thanks again

Martin

[mrawlins]

OK so here's my update.

Having taken off the neck a few times and messed with the truss rod a little, also the claw screws, and adjusted the saddles, and installed the Callaham tone block, raised the neck pickup to where the middle polepiece sits at about 55%, put on new strings and also moved on to a T-Rex Mudhoney - I think I am happy! (except for the mex jumbo frets... grr)

It's amazing what little details can do to the tone of a guitar - not forgetting the amp of course as well. Still not satisfied on that front, and am rather unrealistically jonesing for a Metro plexi. Anyway I'm convinced that there's nothing wrong with the pickups or the beautifully wired BK set.

I have my original Fender wired pick guard but I haven't even tried reinstalling it, I think I was just a little shocked by the comparatively low output of the Apaches, combined with the setup and amp issues.

Thanks again all, this was a most educational thread.

Martin