Recs for a baritone Les Paul

[Gunner Recall]

Heya folks...now that I'm really set with my guitars/amps I think it's time I started hanging around here.

I'm looking to you fine folks to guide me in upgrading the pickups on my Agile 2800 silverburst baritone
(mahogany LP body, 27" set maple neck w/rosewood)

I guess my main influences right now would best be described as post-metal (I hate that name)
Groovy/rhythmic/atmospheric detuned stuff (half step through dropb-ish)
Think Isis-meets Frodus-meets (Vheissu/Fire era) Thrice

My main amp is a Mesa Mark V though a Port City 1x12 OS Wave w/ an EVM12L,
which is pretty tight sounding (my main guitar is loaded with a dimarzio crunchlab/liquifire for the ultra tight proggy stuff).

So maybe something to sorta balance out the amp and sludge it up a little.

Cool smileys! :shock: pewpewpew

[Gunner Recall]

Tim hit me back...he recommended a black dog bridge and a riffraff neck.
While I don't doubt that he knows what he's talking about, I'm worried the output would be too low.

I'm not really looking for a PAF-y sound...
Am I just falling into the "more = better" trap?

[MDV]

I dabble a little in 'post metal', mixing its influence in among more aggressive styles, and all things being equal recommend the nailbomb for it. For acoustically darker guitars, maybe a cold sweat.

But

Thats on 25.75 to 25.5. The reasoning behind tims suggestion is that more powerfull pickups can sound unpleasant ("Like a bass guitar through a cheap distortion pedal") on longer scales because of the greater propenderance of high frequency overtones on the string, and that therefore higher gain sounds are best achieved with nice tasty punch and clarity with lower output pickups.

I dont have any personal experience of this, however, so cant confirm or deny, save that to tell you that tim knows his pickups, and what he's talking about, and its worked very well for at least one other member in the past (which I believe was also a black dog bridge); roobubba, who may or may not join the thread with a more baritone-informed recommendation.

And, weclome.

[Gunner Recall]

That actually makes quite a bit of sense...thanks for the input!

I guess I've just been hearing so much about nailbombs and c-pigs from other metal guys and was looking at those.

Tim mentioned looking for something with a greater clarity and a less "clinical" tone, I'm starting to realize what he meant by that.

[MDV]

Youre welcome.

Tims spot on again;

Most guys like aaron turner and mike sullivan (one of my favourites of the genre; russian circles) arent using really hot pickups anyway. Most guys playing that sort of style are using stock pickups on gibsons and fenders or some other PAF based design. Not modern metal laser guided missile pickups.

The lower output pickups keep the clarity, openess and harmonic content of the guitars sound while you can use your amp (assuming it has the balls) to provide as much gain as you need. Thats the way to go for this style. You cant squash or distort your signal too much with a super high output metal machine because it ends up being NOT heavy.

For my style with some post metally stuff and a dose of thrash and some inspiration from far more aggressive and complex death outfits like origin and nile I'm still only using ceramic naimbombs and...an unreleased pickup that I probably shouldnt confuse matters with here thats moderately closely related to the painkiller. Both close to 15k DC resistance, not nutjob flamethrowers, and they keep the clarity, tightness, dynamics and harmonics while giving me all the aggression I need for stuff thats much more aggressive than Isis and Thrice (in conjunction with a Pitbull, Powerball and JVM...not at the same time, though, but you get the idea; amps with a lot of gain and distortion on tap).

[Roobubba]

Tim's recommendation here is spot on.

The black dog works wonderfully on longer scale length guitars, and is perfectly capable of getting utterly, utterly filthy, with the right amp (as MDV rightly said).

Now I must admit that the higher gain pickup 'problem' of mushiness and 'over-the-topness' in baritones is not something I've been able to confirm with my own setup. I used a black dog in my 26.5-28" multiscale Wez Venables baritone and was extremely happy with the results - this was Tim's recommendation, by the way, and I thoroughly agree that it's the right pickup for you given your posts here. BUT (sorry to confuse the matter), I've recently switched the black dog for a miracle man, which I had in my gig backup ibanez, and for my style (which is less post-metal, more hardcore/thrash/grind), it hits the nail absolutely on the head. 13Gauge has just finished the instrumental recording of a 4-track EP in the studio (vocalist lost his voice, so we'll need another day to get the vox down before final mixes and mastering! Gah!), and I'm extremely happy with the sound of the MM in this axe. I didn't find any of the sonic unpleasantness that Tim mentioned to me he'd found with higher output pickups in baritones. Of course, there are an awful lot of other variables.
It must be said, though - the cleans on the black dog were superb, and an AlNiCo pickup is definitely a good idea for anything involving cleans on a baritone IMO. Absolutely gorgeous. I couldn't do them justice with my 5150-II (the clean channel is a dog), but through a Fender... WOW.

Anyway, bottom line: Black Dog is definitely the right call. Don't worry about the output (unless you have an amp with almost no gain on tap), they get plenty heavy enough :)

(the above is all relating to bridge pickups, since I don't even have a neck pickup, and wouldn't use one if I did).


Hope this helps,

Roo

[MDV]

Thanks for the testimony, roo, but I have to stress, for post metal type sounds the miracle man is almost completely perfectly wrong

Just in case Gunner gets the wrong idea from your post (that its about the MM rather than the general point of you finding no problem with a high output pickup in a baritone).

[Roobubba]

Thanks for the testimony, roo, but I have to stress, for post metal type sounds the miracle man is almost completely perfectly wrong

Just in case Gunner gets the wrong idea from your post (that its about the MM rather than the general point of you finding no problem with a high output pickup in a baritone).

Oh yes, totally agreed, the MM is not for this job at all!

Black Dog, though, oh yes :)

[Gunner Recall]

Thanks guys...I get what you are saying.

I should clarify...I'm somewhat of a recent post-metal convert, and I came up playing a lot of thrashy/hardcore stuff and still play a great deal of prog-y metal as well.

Once I started getting big into effects (a lot of fuzz) I started exploring doom/sludge and more atmospheric stuff with slower tempos tempos, so it was sorta a natural progression.

Maybe the baritone is best saved for those other styles and not post-metal.
You can't really get the notes to flop out right for those open string bomb notes with a 27" scale  :lol:

[D4niel]

Funny ...
I am actually using a C-Pig in my Epiphone LP Baritone (27,7) that is tuned to g# atm, and there is no muddyness, just a "juicy" sound.
About the "Harmonic Overload": It is noticable, but if you are able to play the right way (e.g. minimalize unwanted stringnoise, good handtech ...) it gives yout the possibility to get harmonics just out of every corner in the Fretboard.
But, on the other Hand, I use a quite unique amp (Earforce Two), so maybe it is just a lucky combination ...?
Plus, my LP is a rather dark sounding guitar, so to get some "sparkling" clean tones and my massive use of harmonics, perhaps it is really just a special case?

The music, that i use this guitar for ... I would describe it as progressive extreme (extreme as Ulcerate, for example) metal with quite strong post metal influences.

Still ... I think Tim knows best, but everyone has his own hands and ears ;)

[Roobubba]

Interesting, D4niel, good to know I'm not the only one who has no problems with this situation! :)