Low output guitar

[Deadlock]

Hey guys!

I picked up my new (used) guitar two days ago. As I didn't try it with my own gear I didn't think about it, but the output of the guitar is lower than my other guitar. It's considerably lower, and this I can't understand why. I checked the wiring and it looks fine, which leads me to the question: What else could it be?

*confused*

Edit: It's a dual humbucker guitar. In the middle position the volume drops even further. By themselves, both pickups sound just fine, although low on the volume part.

[Philly Q]

What are the pickups on the two guitars?

The volume drop in the middle position might be due to the pickups being out of phase.  Does it sound thin, less bassy than the individual pickups?

[Deadlock]

Hey dude, thanks for the fast response!

Well, the old one that can sound decent with gain is my S series Ibanez with the stock INF1, INF2 and INFS1. They are bad, I know, but they somewhat work for what I need.

The one I bought has the Dean Time Capsule pickups installed. Not great either I guess, but I bought the guitar to get a guitar that fit what I actually need spec wise (not the pickups obviously). Now just to get enough money for a pair of Bare Knuckles  8)

I was a little wrong about the actual volume of the guitar, but the difference in tone and somewhat the output of the guitar is just not what I would expect. The pickups aren't that different output wise - I think.

Yes! In fact it is thin, lacking bass and with a drop in volume. The difference of the bass and general fullness of the sound between middle and neck position is huge.

Another few discoveries while I was playing just 20 minutes ago:

The bridge pickup picks up noise really easily. It's like the singlecoil of the other guitar: Like it was designed to pick up noise  :lol:  And while tapping the screws with something metal, the bridge pickup doesn't give the same amount of 'clunk' as the neck pickup does.

So: Between the two guitars, the sound of the individual pickups on the guitar I bought is 'weak'. It's not a bad sound, but it's weak, and of course even weaker in middle position. It's hard, if not impossible, to get the same amount of distortion out of the Time Capsules than I can get out of the stock INF pickups, even with increased gain when playing the Time Capsules.

Maybe I should recheck the wiring  8)

[Philly Q]

I don't know a great deal about Ibanez or Dean pickups, but I just looked at the Dean website and I see the Time Capsules are fairly high output ceramics.  I'm assuming the Ibanez ones are fairly hot too.  So there probably shouldn't be very much difference in output between the two sets, as you say.

It does sound like there might be something wrong with at least the bridge pickup and/or electronics on the Dean.

If you've got a multi-meter you can check the integrity of the connections and the DC resistance of the pickups (to see if one coil isn't working, for example) - not something I know much about, though, I'm afraid!

It does sound like the pickups are out of phase - or it may just be the dodgy bridge pickup influencing the sound in the middle position.

[Deadlock]

I don't own a multimeter, but I guess now is a good time to get one  :D

I found THIS link, which explains the color coding of Dean pickups. The colors in the document is not matching the wire colors I see used in the guitar, so I wonder what's going on.

Sorry I don't know a whole lot about electronics, but here goes. Just in case someone knows something that I don't :P These are the wires coming from the pickups:

The big blue wire has 3(?) wires, the other which is grey has 4.
The one with 3 wires has white taped to the wire it came from, red to pickup selector, and bare goes to back of tone pot.
The one with 4 wires has yellow and black soldered together and taped to side of big wire, red to pickup selector, while green&bare goes to back of tone pot.

I'd better find me a multimeter! I guess I can't give more information until I get one!

[Frank]

I don't own a multimeter, but I guess now is a good time to get one  :D

If you work with guitars, amps, microphones and cables then you really should own a multimeter!

Unfortunately a multimeter won't tell you if the pickups are out of phase but from the description in your first post here I'd bet at least 10p that's the problem.

[Philly Q]

I found THIS link, which explains the color coding of Dean pickups. The colors in the document is not matching the wire colors I see used in the guitar, so I wonder what's going on.

Is your guitar a Korean model?

I would guess the colour coding on that sheet only applies to Dean USA pickups.  In the cheaper models they probably use generic far Eastern pickups with completely different coding.

[Deadlock]

Oh didn't think of that. Yeah it's a korean model :)

I tried registering on their forum so I can ask around, but it takes up to 72 hours to become a member.. sigh!

[Telerocker]

I like Ibbie's for some music, they are nice guitars, but the weak parts are the pickups. Heard few Ibbies with good standardpickups. Upgrading pays off.

[Deadlock]

Oh right, just talked to the guy I bought it from. It appears to be completely different pickups than I imagined it would be with, and they happen to be low output pickups. I guess that's answer to the general output problem.

Also, he said the electronics came that way from the store. I mean them being seemingly low on output in middle position. 'Seemingly' meaning that it's only low when playing clean. With distortion it sort of evens out with the individual pickup positions. Does this make any sense regarding the phase issue we were discussing?

[Philly Q]

Not really, the out of phase effect is still there clean or distorted.  You still notice the lack of bass - on my old Hamer with out-of-phase pickups I always used to think the middle position sounded a bit like a radio with a tiny speaker, breaking up.

But it's also true that heavy distortion does tend to "hide" the subtle distinctions between different pickup selections.

[Deadlock]

I will see when I get home (not quite home as I write this) how the bass is during distortion. I would like to believe that there is still a lack of bass, but more subtle difference than individual pickup sounds as more distortion is piled on top.

What should be my next step? I'm not really sure.. :)

[Philly Q]

What should be my next step? I'm not really sure.. :)

If you can do a bit of soldering, to see if they really are out of phase, take the "big grey wire" and swap the connections round - so green to switch, red to ground on the back of the tone pot (with the bare wire).

It should have no effect on the tone in either bridge or neck position, but in the middle it will either get thinner than it is now (in which case it wasn't out of phase in the first place) or it'll sound fattier/bassier than it is now (in which case it was out of phase).

You might find you actually like the out of phase sound!  :)

[Deadlock]

I wonder if I can do that. The green wire has the bare wire wrapped around it. Does this mean anything special?
Sorry for being hopeless on the electronics part :P

[Philly Q]

The green wire has the bare wire wrapped around it. Does this mean anything special?

No, they're just being neat and tidy.  :lol:

The bare wire grounds the metal parts of the pickup (the baseplate and, if there is one, the cover) so it always needs to be connected to ground.