GIBSON MIDTOWN CUSTOM VSB, why is it so cheap?

[WezV]

which is fine if they state that it is dyed.  Should granadillo be called 'stained granadillo'  it will look like ebony for a few years then people will start seeing red patches appear on their fretboards.   


They feel the need to tell us maple is baked because  we all know what maple looks like normally.  I think they are taking the piss selling woods like granadillo and obeche as pure black fretboard woods without elaborating on what they have done to get them to be such dark fretboards


I am very much in favour of the use of alternative materials, i am not even bothered if they are dyeing them.  I just think people should know what they are getting, and any potential care issues that may arise from it

[Philly Q]

I guess they are trying to make everything look like rosewood and ebony so people don't cry so much about the materials, well, not being rosewood and ebony.

which is fine if they state that it is dyed.  Should granadillo be called 'stained granadillo'  it will look like ebony for a few years then people will start seeing red patches appear on their fretboards.    

Which is like those '80s Japanese LP copies with cheap rosewood boards dyed to look like ebony....  :?

I understand Gibson's reasons for experimenting with different woods/materials, but dyeing the wood seems like a cheap tactic - and is enough to put me off.

I must admit I'm looking at new Gibsons now and thinking "That looks nice.... oh, baked maple/obeche/whatever fretboard.  Forget it.  :( "  I know it's snobbery, but I can't help it.

Until you mentioned it, I had no idea they were using Katalox or Granadillo.  Maybe they should draw attention to it, make a feature of it like they did with the SmartWoods years ago (I had one with a Curupay top and fretboard).  At the moment it feels like they're "hiding" it.

[WezV]

i am not really against a bit of dye. it can perfect for making ebony nice and black and does work well on other woods too.  fiebings leather dye is great stuff for that purpose and has been used for years by many of the factories offering ebony fretboards

i have a guitar with a purpleheart fretboard that i dyed black from the start.  the purpleheart wasn't very purple, more of a brown grey but nice and solid with a good tap tone.  so black dyed purpleheart it became rather than waste it

a couple of years later there is a bit of wear through on the edges, but its fine because i can re dye whenever it needs it.  its fine because i know its purpleheart dyed black, and i have the proper black dye  ready to go


so yeah, i have no problem with hiding or enhancing the wood as they see fit.  but on a high wear area like a fretboard we need to know a bit about what they have done

[JesusCrisp]

I guess they are trying to make everything look like rosewood and ebony so people don't cry so much about the materials, well, not being rosewood and ebony.

which is fine if they state that it is dyed.  Should granadillo be called 'stained granadillo'  it will look like ebony for a few years then people will start seeing red patches appear on their fretboards.    

Which is like those '80s Japanese LP copies with cheap rosewood boards dyed to look like ebony....  :?

I understand Gibson's reasons for experimenting with different woods/materials, but dyeing the wood seems like a cheap tactic - and is enough to put me off.

I must admit I'm looking at new Gibsons now and thinking "That looks nice.... oh, baked maple/obeche/whatever fretboard.  Forget it.  :( "  I know it's snobbery, but I can't help it.

Until you mentioned it, I had no idea they were using Katalox or Granadillo.  Maybe they should draw attention to it, make a feature of it like they did with the SmartWoods years ago (I had one with a Curupay top and fretboard).  At the moment it feels like they're "hiding" it.

A big article about what those woods actually are, why they are using them, how they are actually processed to look like they look (since apparently they don't look black or brown naturally), do some comparison pictures and tone comparisons, or at least describe what's the difference.

The Andertons Music website has a good article about Baked Maple, they have some good close up pictures of the fretboards and a good comparison of how it's different from Rosewood and "normal", non-baked maple.

[Philly Q]

Have you got a link to that?  I'm having trouble finding it.

[JesusCrisp]

http://www.andertons.co.uk/News/aid1158/gibson-baked-maple-fingerboard-guide.asp

Here it is.

[Philly Q]

Very interesting, thanks!  :)

[Ian Price]

CHeers for the youtube link. Just watched it - interesting. I wasn't expecting to hear that much of a difference in tone!

[tomjackson]

Loads of guitar makers have used different materials to great effect; Dan Armstrong, Danelectro, James Trussart, Parker Fly, Martin, Rainsong etc.

I don't see any problem with Gibson using alternative materials, they probably have to anyway after their recent troubles with importing wood certain woods.  We should at least give them a try before deciding and not get too hung up on the particular shade of wood. 

Surely if these materials sound good then they are good?

I suppose there was a similar resistance to stopping using ivory at some point in time.....

[Ian Price]

Good point Tom - I think because it is Gibson and because dear Henry is almost universally ridiculed there is a natural inclination to slate any new stuff that Gibson come out with. From the Andertons video it looked as though they did genuinely think that the baked maple was easier to play than the rosewood. I"m still waiting to find a LP that I get on with - maybe this is a step in the right direction for me and my fondness for maple boards.

[JesusCrisp]

Gibson finally released a statement about the new woods!!!

http://www2.gibson.com/Support/FAQ-Tonewoods.aspx

[WezV]

Will Indian rosewood ever be used by Gibson again?

Yes, and it is actually being used now. At this time, Gibson is not using traditional Indian rosewood fingerboard blanks. The Gibson R&D team engineered a new process that is sonically virtually indistinguishable by layering two thinner pieces of Indian rosewood together with the grain of one in reverse direction of the other.

How good is a guitar with a layered fingerboard?

Very. Consider that guitar Gibson necks have always been layered - a fingerboard onto a neck. The body of a Les Paul guitar, for example, has always been layered; maple on top of mahogany.

reads a bit odd.   basically justifying laminated construction... and its an odd place to have laminated construction.   

i want to know more about the grain direction in these two laminates.  do they both run headstock/body?  or are they 90 degrees.   if both headstock to body are they cut from the same piece with one flipped round?   if so, why?  If 90 degress, will the fretboard not be less stiff than before?  will it tear out easier when refretted?

sounds odd either way.

Why is the Gibson Obeche black when, in its natural state, the wood is light in color, similar to maple?
Gibson uses Obeche that is specifically engineered in Europe to be used as fingerboard material. This material can be dyed many different colors as it is processed; we chose black for some current models. (We may use other colors in the future.) The surface of the wood is not stained; the color goes through the entire piece of wood. It will not rub off or lose its color.

sounds like i called this one.  i would bet its an acrylic polymer that is basically pressure cooked till all the way through the wood

[Philly Q]

Why is the Gibson Obeche black when, in its natural state, the wood is light in color, similar to maple?
Gibson uses Obeche that is specifically engineered in Europe to be used as fingerboard material. This material can be dyed many different colors as it is processed; we chose black for some current models. (We may use other colors in the future.) The surface of the wood is not stained; the color goes through the entire piece of wood. It will not rub off or lose its color.

sounds like i called this one.  i would bet its an acrylic polymer that is basically pressure cooked till all the way through the wood

I think you're right, because it's obviously been made much harder than "raw" obeche, as well as changing the colour.

That being the case, why use obeche (or timber) at all?  Might as well go fully synthetic.


("specifically engineered in Europe" conjures up some strange images of smoke-belching East European factories...)

[WezV]

well i have used acylised maple a few times before, and i suspect this is a very similar process.  the main reason is it lets you use wood that would usually be unsuitable for fretboards - like the obeche

it still sounds very woody, and still works like wood - although quite hard and a bit smelly

i am on board with this idea, especially if they start applying it to other woods - just a shame it seems to be what they are using on cheaper models so will never be considered as good as the other alternatives