Pickup's DC Rating vs. Output Rating?

[Slartibartfarst42]

If that's the case (and I have no reason to doubt it is) how come other manufacturers can give output figures? I don't see why we would need to tie down all those variables, as long as it's consistent. My string gauge, pick attack etc. may be different but surely, as long as all pickups were measured in the same way, I would be able to tell that one pickup was hotter than another. The fact that my individual circumstances may make it slightly hotter or colder than that doesn't matter. The important thing is that I would know how much hotter one pickup is relative to another in the range.

Noty sure that makes sense to anyone with real electrical knowledge like BigB but it seems perfectly reasonable to me  8)

[jjcharvel]

The point is that a pickup has no output level by itself - the output levels depends on the input (ie guitar strings and setup, pickup position,  player's attack etc) AND the load impedance

can you explain what "load impedance" means ?

[BigB]

If that's the case (and I have no reason to doubt it is) how come other manufacturers can give output figures? I don't see why we would need to tie down all those variables, as long as it's consistent.

The problem here is "being consistent", as this requires to maintain a repeatable procedure with well-calibrated tools - and that will only allow (more or less) meaningfull comparisons between a single builder's pups, not between different builders (but you can bet most users will still use these figures to compare different builders pups).

Also, output level is just another possibly misleading indication, it won't say much about how the pickup will sound in the end.

Not to say average output level figures would be totally useless FWIW.

The point is that a pickup has no output level by itself - the output levels depends on the input (ie guitar strings and setup, pickup position,  player's attack etc) AND the load impedance

can you explain what "load impedance" means ?

The input stage impedance of the device your guitar is connected to (usually an amp or pedal). You may want to google for "impedance matching" or more specifically in this case for "impedance bridging".

[Slartibartfarst42]

Actually, I don't think it's a problem at all. DiMarzio provide a power rating and I don't think it's misleading at all, in fact I think it's quite helpful, despite its limitations. What's more, while obviously a power rating will be subjective based upon a range of criteria, the same might easily be said about sound clips. I think sound clips are arguably more misleading than power ratings would be as I think there are far more variables that are more significant:

- Wood in the guitar used
- Construction of the guitar
- Bridge on the guitar
- Strings used
- Pick used
- Covered or uncovered examples
- Type of amp
- Power of amp
- Amp settings
- Playing style

The list goes on. On that basis there's no point in BKP using sound clips either and I haven't even begun to talk about the way sound clips from one manufacturer are compared to those of another, which is something that is routinely done and doesn't appear to cause much of an issue. I might equally argue that descriptions can be just as confusing, if not more, than a power rating. BKP describe the A-Bomb in a way that certainly wasn't accurate in my experience but I'm sure would be an accurate description in the right guitar, with the right amp and with the right player. A power rating from BKP would do no more damage in my opinion than sound clips and descriptions but would be another tool that we could use, in combination with everything else, to make our buying decisions.

[Attica!]

Actually, I don't think it's a problem at all. DiMarzio provide a power rating and I don't think it's misleading at all, in fact I think it's quite helpful, despite its limitations. What's more, while obviously a power rating will be subjective based upon a range of criteria, the same might easily be said about sound clips. I think sound clips are arguably more misleading than power ratings would be as I think there are far more variables that are more significant:

- Wood in the guitar used
- Construction of the guitar
- Bridge on the guitar
- Strings used
- Pick used
- Covered or uncovered examples
- Type of amp
- Power of amp
- Amp settings
- Playing style

The list goes on. On that basis there's no point in BKP using sound clips either and I haven't even begun to talk about the way sound clips from one manufacturer are compared to those of another, which is something that is routinely done and doesn't appear to cause much of an issue. I might equally argue that descriptions can be just as confusing, if not more, than a power rating. BKP describe the A-Bomb in a way that certainly wasn't accurate in my experience but I'm sure would be an accurate description in the right guitar, with the right amp and with the right player. A power rating from BKP would do no more damage in my opinion than sound clips and descriptions but would be another tool that we could use, in combination with everything else, to make our buying decisions.

I completely agree with you there. I have the HolyDiver and Nailbomb, and on the BKP clips the Nailbomb sounds so much better in the Progressive Clip. But that's because (from what I've heard), the HolyDiver is in a mahogany guitar, which is it's 2nd home - alder (or something in that respect) being it's first. I find that clip really puts me off the Holy Diver. But the fact I have it, I know in Alder guitars, it sounds awesome for that music. I really think the BKP clips are misleading. I really think they should demo them in ways that show off the pickup as it's best, in a guitar it's most at home with. Maybe even with them demonstrated in a songwhich they suit. Kind of like the Dimarzio Site. The EMG and Seymour Duncanclips are just absolutely tosh! lol

[Slartibartfarst42]

Exactly. Two of the reasons I originally went for the A-Bomb were the sound clips, in which the Nailbomb sounded great, and the description, where it seemed highly versatile. What did I find? It sounded nothing like I imagined it would in my guitar, to the point where I really didn't like it at all, and it was nothing like as versatile as it was described as nothing I did with it would get rid of that 90's Metal feel to it. Conversely, the Holydiver, which isn't described on the website in such versatile terms, is the most versatile pickup I've ever tried.

All of the things mentioned are subject to any number of variables and sound is rather a subjective subject anyway. It seems to me that if every pickup is subject to lots of variables, the best thing to do is maximise the information at your disposal so that you can make the most informed decision possible and I see absolutely no reason why that shouldn't include power ratings. If DC resistance, descriptions and sound clips were that good, there'd be no need to come on the forum and ask about them. I use the website and I ask BKP but I also always ask on the forum, simply because it makes sense to do your research and maximise the information available. Bring on the power ratings Tim  :D

[BigB]

Just to make things clear: I didn't say output level rating would be useless, just that it won't tell much about how a given pup might sound with a given guitar and rig. Sounclips depend on even more variables than output level ratings for sure, but they are not presented as an "objective" measure, and IMHO they still tell more about a pickup "character" than any DC resistance or output level figures - FWIW, the Crawler bridge and ABomb bridge are quite close wrt/ both DC rating and output levels, but the voicing and dynamic are _very_ different.

As a side note : I happily use the ABomb bridge for  classic rock / hard rock / punk rock / indy stuff. I'm not a "90s metal" expert by any mean so I can't tell but nobody complained about my tone being "too 90s metal" so far ;)

[edit]Re-reading this:

not to say the ABomb is an "all-rounder" - it does have it's own character, and you have to like tight lows and abrasive mids, and I guess that's what some may refer to as "90s metal" - but as far as I'm concerned it woks JustFine(tm) for other genres
[edit]

[Slartibartfarst42]

I would hasten to point out that while the A-Bomb clearly didn't work for me and that aggressiveness was too 90's Metal, I am happy to accept that a lot of its failure for me was down to a combination of me asking for the wrong thing when describing what I wanted, BKP concentrating too much on just one aspect of what I wanted and having the wrong wood in my guitar. For me at least, it certainly didn't work in a maple neck-thru and I can't imagine it being my cup of tea in alder but I have always maintained that in mahogany it would work much better.

[BigB]

For me at least, it certainly didn't work in a maple neck-thru

Uh, I see - I have a maple neck-thru guitar too (80s MIJ Vox) and I can well imagine how agressive it would be with the ABomb.