koss tone required, HELP ME!!!!

[moodyedge]

My names steve irving and Ive been looking for a particular tone for years. Ive spent a fortune and still not had much luck. The first decent guitar I got a few year back is a epiphone les paul custom in white(manics nut), I soon realised the pickups wernt cutting it so I bought a set of seymour duncan 59's for a warm, thick gary moore/Scott Gorham tone. They were a good upgrade to what was i there but now after owning a les paul standard  I just think the 59 bridge pickup on the epiphone sounds spikey and too trebly. Anyway, I then bought a sg standard which is a diff tone again, that was my acdc phase which has since fizzled out.

Im kossoff mad so am aiming for that tone, however some recordings/videos I have heard featuring koss/free, I dont like koss's tone. Theres 2 videos in partucular that show 100% the tone I want...Heres the first, this is the BEST guitar tone I have ever heard......

mr big

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK89EVPRaX4

Thick, so  crunchy as fff.....yet not harsh...


and this video with a diff guitar but with a tone id describe as warm, deep dark and rich, still got a nice crunch too

fire and water

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EqGOVWeD_Mc

you will notice both amps are orange which is what I have.

Ive had the same problem with amps, Ive had trace elliot...marshall tsl 122 which was nothing but trouble, unreliable, so I bought an orange rocker 30 watt a class head which sounds good and has never gone wrong. Theres a solo improv on my myspace to give you an indication of the tone I have. I hate pedals with a passion so I dont use any, my setup goes Fingers>guitar>lead>to amp thats my setup...  maybe a bit of wah for thin lizzy stuff.....

my fire and water improv solo with 97 standard

www.myspace.com/moodyedge

The tone sounds quite nice on there but I dont think its where I want it. Maybe your ear will know and be able to describe whats going on. It is only recorded on a cr@p vocal mic pointed towards the band and recorded on a laptop....but you get the idea...

I have the orange with a custom matamp 2x12 cab which is like a mini 4x12 and has celection g12h speakers in as I was assured by orange and matamp would give me that vintage crunch Im after, Ive even tried swapping valves to try and get closer.

You can see my problem, Have I bought the wrong guitar? do I have the wrong amp, do I need a marshall plexi and a 58 vos les paul reissue, is it the speakers, the pickups??...Im tired of looking at every possible factor...

I recently bought a 97 les paul standard in tobacco sunburst just like my idol koss which is the 1st les paul Ive ever had... I was actually sold a 95 model in the same colour by mistake which when I had drove home 380 mile round trip, I noticed that the neck was in fact in 3 pieces and had been glued back together...Nice! The stange thing is, after playing the 3 piece 95 model for a week while waiting for the replacement 1997 model I should have been sold to arrive, I realiaed that I prefered the tone of ther 95 jigsaw one....It felt heavier and I dont know if thats why the tone was better....diff wood, it sounded more crunchy more sustain maybe that was due to the pickup(bridge) I will never know.....

So basically, HELP!

Ive talked to quite a few people and places, a guy at GAK said "oh youve got the wong amp, its nothing to do with pickups, you need a marshall plexi."  He didnt actualy realise that the tone I was after came from a orange, anyway. Another guy I spoke to  at another shop wheer I got the 59 duncans for the epiphone said oh you want a seymour duncan jb....Im not convinced, besides I dont even think he knew who kossoff is, tool.  I mentioned a 57 gibson reissue pickup...He said that might be good. Other people have said oh that amps got one of the best tones you can get..(The orange Rocker 30)

So im well and truly stuck in a tone rut....

cheers for reading this far !

Steve

[Brow]

When I think of Paul Kossoff, I personally think of searing (sp?) lead tones that are very smooth with a 'singing' quality.

As far as pickups go, you could try a set of Stormy Mondays or Alnico IV Mules (which I have in a Gibson LP).

Both will give you a great PAF tone, and really let the tone of the guitar itself shine through :)

[horsehead]

Brow I'd go with you on this Stormy mondays I think would be best to give a more rounded sound.

[Twinfan]

I'd say Mules - I can get a decent enough Kossoff tone with my Mules (LP Standard) and an MI Audio Crunch Box.

I think with the gear you have, with or without BKPs, you're probably about as close to Kossof's tone as you can get.  Remember it's your fingers and playing style that make the most difference from this point onwards and unless you play exactly like him you'll never get his sound.

I'd say get a set of Mules (to make the best of what gear you have) and then work on how you play - attack, vibrato etc.  You'll never the get the exact tone from gear alone.

[Tellboy]

I'm probably one of the oldest members of this forum and started playing in the 60's and was an ardent Kossoff/Clapton/Beck fan. I used a Gibson SG Standard (still got it) through a Marshall Plexi later followed by an Orange OR100. The one thing I learnt from using these amps was yes they were capable of producing some great (Kossoff/Clapton type) sounds BUT only if used at or near maximum volume. 99% of the time my Plexi was never used above half volume (still got complaints) and sounded relatively 'ordinary' but I remember a particular outdoor festival where I turned it up full and the sound was absolutely amazing. I would bet that where you've said "however some recordings/videos I have heard featuring koss/free, I dont like koss's tone." were recorded with his amp set at lower volumes (studio/venue volume restrictions etc??). Although it is possible to use a hotplate etc with these I think you loose some character in the sound.

After saying all that I would agree completely with Twinfan that you will never get the sound with gear alone. Kossoff had a very individual strong attack/vibrato. You probably have read that Clapton (who was using the same Marshall/Gibson setup) reputedly asked Kossoff how he got his sound/vibrato.

[PhilKing]

I'm a big Kossoff fan and know the tones you want.  Unfortuantely they are all with the amp turned up and a 4x12 (or 2 4x12's).  I saw Free play about 7 or 8 times and i have been close enough to the amps to tell you what the settings were - one time Paul Kossoff wanted me and my friend to move because we were in front of his amp and blocking his sound!!

I have 3 guitars which can get very close to the sound, one is an 86 Les paul with the new PG Blues set, one is a Les Paul with a Riff Raff and Stormy Monday and the other is a Zemaitis clone with an Emerald and A4 Mule.  

One thing that Kossoff and all the older players do is use the volume controls, because they have the amps cranked, you have to control the volume from the guitar.  I used to use a Marshall 50 with a 4x12 to get the sound, but basically any older valve amp with EL34's will do it, though Orange (Matamps actually from that era), have a more headroom.

The best amp set up will probably be a Matamp King Street to get you closer to the sound you want.  Ignore Matamps wattage listing, they rate all their amps with the wattage before any breakup.  A 4x12 with G12H's will also help.

Basically, avoid any high output pickups and also avoid master volumes as the tone is really power amp distortion, not pre amp.  With my Silver Jubilee (on the clean channel), and Klon Centaur, I can get the tone you want.  I am using 2 12's - both Celestion Sidewinders, one is in the Silver Jubilee and the other is in an Ear Candy Sovereign 1x12.

[HTH AMPS]

ok, I've been a massive Free fan since I was at college back in '91 and got into blues in a big way.  Here's my Koss rig...



you don't need any more gain than a vintage Marshall - since Koss was using plexis of that era, they were pretty much like Superbass amps.  I've modded my own '76 Superbass to '67 plexi specs and it totally nails that Koss tone.  

The other important ingredients are IV Mules and more unusual are the 55Hz bass-cone G12H-30s which take all the thin top end away from the Marshall and make the notes thick and round.

I've got a master volume in the back of my Marshall to control the volume and it still sounds fantastic at anything above '2' on the MV.

Oh, nearly forgot... get some Sprague/Bumblebee caps for the tone pots on your guitar - I was never a believer in tone caps but these are worth every last penny, just roll the tone down the around 4 for solos to fatten things up.

I also prefer Gibson's 50s-era wiring of the vol/tone pots - it does make a difference for the better (imo).

 :twisted:

[_tom_]

The other important ingredients are IV Mules and more unusual are the 55Hz bass-cone G12H-30s which take all the thin top end away from the Marshall and make the notes thick and round.

Is there much difference in tone between those ones and normal G12Hs then? If so, where did you get the 55Hz bass-cone ones from?

To the original poster, I would recommend Mules for the kinda tone you're after. I actually just realised one of my clips has myself playing bit of The Hunter (though, its not very well played :P). Its about halfway through on this clip - http://www.netmusicians.org/files/44-power%20screamer.mp3

Doesnt really sound like the "proper" koss tone, but I like it anyway!

[moodyedge]

If you listen to the clip on my profile its me improving a fire and water solo.....thats my tone......erm.....
see what you think..

myspace.com/moodyedge

[moodyedge]

The other important ingredients are IV Mules and more unusual are the 55Hz bass-cone G12H-30s which take all the thin top end away from the Marshall and make the notes thick and round.

Is there much difference in tone between those ones and normal G12Hs then? If so, where did you get the 55Hz bass-cone ones from?

To the original poster, I would recommend Mules for the kinda tone you're after. I actually just realised one of my clips has myself playing bit of The Hunter (though, its not very well played :P). Its about halfway through on this clip - http://www.netmusicians.org/files/44-power%20screamer.mp3

Doesnt really sound like the "proper" koss tone, but I like it anyway!

Ive alraedy got the bass speakers in my cab....I dont really wana be swapping amps because I aint had it long..got the cab made etc.....

Maybe try some of them pickups,,mules...........I lso play greenday, offspring,m feedser, manics etc etc...so so still need gain on tap to play stuff like that in the band..Id play free all day if I could but the singer aint no paul rodgers.....

[HTH AMPS]

Is there much difference in tone between those ones and normal G12Hs then? If so, where did you get the 55Hz bass-cone ones from?

my 55Hz G12H's are original 70s Celestions, I think the current Heritage series use the same (repro) cone for a smoother tone over the standard G12H with the 75Hz cone.

[Tellboy]

If you listen to the clip on my profile its me improving a fire and water solo.....thats my tone......erm.....
see what you think..

myspace.com/moodyedge

Bearing in mind that your clip was recorded with a cr@p mike on a laptop I think it is excellent and a good likeness to Koss's sound. However, I think perhaps you can get a little too 'fanatical' about getting an 'exact' Koss sound. As you've pointed out yourself his tone varies on different clips.

P.S. This post rekindled my interest in Free and I watched most of their other videos on YouTube.  My god weren't some of the audiences "restrained" - just sitting there stoney faced and silent with polite applause at the end!

[moodyedge]

If you listen to the clip on my profile its me improving a fire and water solo.....thats my tone......erm.....
see what you think..

myspace.com/moodyedge

Bearing in mind that your clip was recorded with a cr@p mike on a laptop I think it is excellent and a good likeness to Koss's sound. However, I think perhaps you can get a little too 'fanatical' about getting an 'exact' Koss sound. As you've pointed out yourself his tone varies on different clips.

P.S. This post rekindled my interest in Free and I watched most of their other videos on YouTube.  My god weren't some of the audiences "restrained" - just sitting there stoney faced and silent with polite applause at the end!

ha ha yeah, they want a slap in the face....they are like cardboard cutout people, lookin bored waiting for (insert your own sh!t pop band name here)....I would be going bananas if I was there. You should get the Free forever dvd http://www.freeforeverdvd.com/ I watch it EVERY day...its amazing to watch...what they had as a band firing on a 4 cylinders just blowd my socks off.....good stuff....

Not sure what Im going to do wid my sound....amp...pickups, not sure what I need to do.......Maybe sleep on it for a few months....Possibly buy a vintage wiring kit would help thicken things a bit..I duno... wat diff do vintage style alu tail pieces make??????
edge

[Twinfan]

wat diff do vintage style alu tail pieces make??????
edge

I believe they brighten the tone and make it more lively.  I have one on one of my LPs to brighten a darker sounding guitar.