HOT PAF??????

[Henk]

Hey guys,

This subject seems to come up often so i decided to get to the bottom of this.......

Ok i have been trying to find a 'real' hot PAF for a long time, just lately i have to admit it just can't be done without sacrificing to much high end.

The ONLY possible hot paf BKP is the VHII, at least without sacrificing too much high end. I didnt understand why actually untill Tim explained it to me.

I know there are some 'overwound' original PAF's which seem to have a mythical status among vintage freaks, how thats possible i dont know, but the 42 guage plain enamel wire can be wound to just about 9k on a bobbin, there is just no more room. And yes, most of the PAF tone is due to this kind of wire, offcourse there is the magnet(which basically go from a low AII grade to a strong AV grade) but i think the magnet grade chosen is relitively less influential then the wire and baseplate and so on when the Tone is consearned. Offcourse a stronger magnet will sound different, but the PAF signature will be there.

So thats about it, plain and simple, you just cant get enough highs out of an 9k mule, the only way Tim can make a fully wound PAF bobbin retain enough highs is to use a Alnico V grade magnet to 'push' enough highs trough and do some special trick to the bobbins offsetting so they retain better clarity.

So thats it im afraid, i have tried everything i know and the best alternative i could find is the Classic plus pickup Gibson makes(and i have now in my SG), but the cleans are utter horror compared to my mules, i can boost alot of highs trough and get a very fat crunchy tone, which is quite nice, but unless you dont care about cleans, which is as such kind of strange for a PAF fanatic, its a simple choise of the VHII or enjoy the lower DC PAF's. For that matter, the Mules are quite hot allready, for a PAF that is offcourse.

I must say, that after talking to Tim about this i'm 100% sure he tried everything he could in this matter, but im also glad he set such high standards for his pickups.

Hope this is explains the problem for everyone, it happens all too often i forget some crucial stuff, hope to hear what you think.

Kindest regards, Henk

[Twinfan]

Isn't the Rebel Yell a Hot PAF?  How does that fit into this equation?

[Ratrod]

The Crawler is also a hot PAF style pickup. Probably not the same PAF coils but 43 gauge plain enamel wire and 15K output.

[PhilKing]

I have a late Pat # PAF (basically PAF coils and construction but with the Patent Number sticker).  This had been overwound on one coil (and with different wire), many years ago and sounded a bit like an original SD JB (The 14.75K version).  I sent it to Tim to restore it back and now it is much more Stormy Monday sounding, part of this is because I had him cahnge the magnet from AV to AIV (I still have the original magnet if ever I want to change it back).  The magnet seems to be what makes most of the difference in drive in a regularly wound pickup.  The clarity seems to be from asymmetrical coils, remember Gibson weren't matching coils back then.

[Philly Q]

The ONLY possible hot paf BKP is the VHII, at least without sacrificing too much high end. I didnt understand why actually untill Tim explained it to me....

....unless you dont care about cleans, which is as such kind of strange for a PAF fanatic, its a simple choise of the VHII or enjoy the lower DC PAF's. For that matter, the Mules are quite hot allready, for a PAF that is offcourse.

I understand that you're talking about a "hot" PAF which still falls within the range of a "real" PAF, as opposed to a hotter pickup which sounds sort of PAF-ish.  So that rules out things like the RY, Abraxas and Crawler.

But why does only the VHII count as a hot PAF but, say, the Black Dog doesn't?

Is it because you're defining a "real" PAF as a pickup which must have 42 gauge plain enamel wire?  And anything over 9K can't possibly have that wire, so it isn't a PAF? :?

(Or in other words, are the SM, PG, Mule, RR and VHII the only pickups which use the 42  gauge wire?)

[il˙ti]

So, what is "too much high end"? Personally I think sacrificing some of that is a good thing. I can't stand brittle bridge pickups.

[Henk]

Like Phil says, a 'real' PAF has the 42 plain enamel 'vintage' wire, which is the same guage as the 50's style strat pickups are wired with.

The thing that is confusing is that 43 guage (the later kind) is not thicker like one might think, but quite alot thinner and with this kind of wire you can wind a coil much hotter then with the 42.

And yes, the clarity and punchy/percussive characteristics of the PAF sound do come from using this kind of wire. Offcourse in combination with other factors but that should be obvious.

The magnet type does influence the output frequencies, basically the AV magnet has less mids then an AV. Still the main characteristics of a PAF are clarity and punch IMO. I must admit if i listen to VHII clips its all there allthough it sounds quit different then an AIV PAF, but then again, not so much different then an AII type PAF.

The thing that kind of convinced me is making i logical progression in my head from stormy's to mules to VHII, and it sound to be pretty correct. If focussing on the punchyness of the pickups the at least do increase with hotter coils.

I did think like Ilyti basically and i just adopted the '57 Gibson classic plus sound(~9k, AII) as being the hot PAF sound(who has heard a 'real' hot PAF anyway Gibson must have though......). Allthough i can get a nice fat crunch sound from it(boosting alot of highs trough), the clean sound is just horrible(no highs at all!). Offcourse i use the neck pickup(normal version) for cleans, but it most definately is not the way i would want it to sound.

So this is kind of the deal i guess, obviously Tim could just overwind a Mule, but like he says, you will lose all the highs. So Tim designed a hot PAF which would retain enough highs. And as far as i am consearned hes right. Maybe having less highs doesnt sound that bad to some people, but having NO highs is just shockingly horrible.

Still i cant help feeling the urge trying a VHII with AIV magnet anyway, hoping the coil offset will make a difference....... :oops:

[Henk]

I have a late Pat # PAF (basically PAF coils and construction but with the Patent Number sticker).  

I have these too, mine are the T-buckers or at least the second(?) versions of those. Mine had the Pat no. stamped in the baseplate and were the version after yours i think. I dont know much about them but im guessing they also tried offsetting the coils to retain more highs also. My bridge coil was bad from the start though and died quite soon after i got the guitar. I think the bridge was AV, but the neck is a different magnet, ill try it again and find out. Both were about 9k if i remember correctly.

[Prawnik]

While I understand that original PAF pickups varied a lot in specs and tone, could the Black Dog still be considered a sort of PAF-ish sound?

[Henk]

While I understand that original PAF pickups varied a lot in specs and tone, could the Black Dog still be considered a sort of PAF-ish sound?

No, but i would definately put it in a vintage sounding section.



I have done some serious reading to -at least- 'try' to figure this thing out.

For people who are interested, here is a lengthly read about Gibson PAF pickups.

http://www.provide.net/~cfh/paf.html

As i understand it now, untill about 1962 Gibson made what we now call PAF's, after 1962 they made the so called T-Tops and T-Buckers which have consistently been made with Alnico V grade magnets untill the mid 70's.

Also i found that those humbuckers are also called the VII(version 2) Gibson PAF's, and were wired consistently at about 7,5k.

The offset coils seem to mean that one coil is hotter wound then the other, so one lesser hot wound coil will retain the highs better and this way a hotter pickup can still sound well balanced.

The separate bobbins of a PAF can measure very differently due to Gibson's manufacturing techniques. For example one bobbin could measure 3.5k, and the other 4.5k ohms (for a total of 8k ohms). This mis-matched ohms is actually a good thing, as certain frequencies will stand out if both bobbins have different resistance. This contributes to why two PAF pickups can sound quite different.

This and many more factors cause alot of sample variation, sample degredation etc seem to be affecting these pickups alot also.

The original Gibson T-bucker(i measured it at 7,8 DC(neck), sorry about the mixup earlier) i have sounds somewhere in between the VHII and the Mule i think, it is alot less hot then a VHII though, but sound less round and tight then a Mule.

Obviously this all does not account for the mojo Tim drenches his pickups in, nor does it take aging into account.

So basically, a PAF was wound anywhere in between 7,5k and 9k with different types of 42 guage wire with various magnets strength grades(2,3,4,5). This is also consistant with the sample variation the PAF are said to have.

So there are three PAF versions Tim offers, from less hot Stormy Monday's with AII trough Mules and magnet options to VHII's with a AV magnet. Having done some reading i havent found any proof of any hotter PAF then the VHII, other then some hear-say offcourse.

Hopes this helps, it did clear up some issues for me at least.[/url]

[Philly Q]

So there are three PAF versions Tim offers, from less hot Stormy Monday's with AII trough Mules and magnet options to VHII's with a AV magnet.

And the PG Blues, which I think is pretty similar, but not identical, to the Stormy Monday (apart from one pickup being out of phase with the other).

Interesting stuff, Henk.

[PhilKing]

If you're counting T-Tops as PAF's then the Riff Raff comes into the equation too.  I have a set of T-tops around that I took out of my 335 when I put the unpotted AII Stormy Mondays in there, I'll check the DC and see if they are 7.5K.

  My Patent# PAF is older than them, the coils are PAF coils (with the square cut out).  I got it on a 65/6 SG I bought in 1980 - the pickup was worth more than the guitar I think - I paid $200 for it, it had a headstock repair and was hand painted white!  I don't know how it got a PAF on it, but it had been rewound so I am guessing that it was a replacement.  I took it off and had it in the bridge position of my 60 strat for many years.  When I started to get a few more guitars and I got a Les Paul, I put it in there with a SD original JB in the bridge.  

Once I discovered BK's I had Tim put it back to stock, but I have an AIV magnet in it at the moment, as I have it in the neck with a Riff Raff.

[Henk]

Basically any pickup with the thick 42 guage wire could be considered a PAF IMO, alot still depends on things like baseplate and historically correct cut and magnetized magnets and so on. So yes the PG and probably the RR are as much PAF then the other 42 guage wired pickups. I was more or less trying to get trough a progression of 'hotness' with the pickups i mentioned, i think the PG and RR are more a different voicing to the PAF theme.

I always did approach these things from a tone perspective and not wanted to give much thought about the technical side, simply because its often too contradictionary. Kind of confuses me now i read alot about it, but also clears alot of things up too.... :oops:

What kind off amazed me now i put the old T-Bucker back in a LP, is how bright it is, at least as bright as a Mule neck, higher output but still quite rounded soundwise. I always though it would have a lower grade magnet then a alnico V, but now i know it has that i know alot more of the PAF sound is due to the thick wire. I also have the later 70's hottest kind of T-buckers, which are very punchy and much hotter then the earlier 70's T-bucker, alot more sounding like the VHII actually, but with a bit more low-end, probably due to being fully mechanically wound.

I think alot of the clear and punchy sound characteristics of a PAF are due to the current passing trough the thicker guage wire easierer and with less degredation. Or something like that.....

Owell, im starting to ramble again.......  :roll: