Low Power Amps

[kellar]

If I may weigh in very shortly on what Martin said, he is 100% correct. Quality issues have become less of a factor in recent years when buying overseas products. Quality control is becoming more and more respectable in countries such as Korea, China, Taiwan, etc. In contrast, you are beginning to see a fall off in the Quality Control of traditional products.
If I might add, I find it quite pointless to argue over guitar equipment. These days, product quality varies greatly from product to product within a company. While your last Gibson Custom Shop R10 may have been a dream to play, the next may be a complete disaster. It's just the fact of the matter.
Lastly, what is important is that you find a product that you are happy with. Guitar players are a small breed and as we all know, nearly everything in music and sound is subjective. What your botique amp does for you, may do nothing for me. So, it is all quite pointless.

[noodleplugerine]

I really dont care about what amp anyone uses, i do however think one should think ten times before investing money in something that has not yet proven its worth in musical history.

Complete utter nonsense.

If an amp sounds good, and is versatile, and useful for what you want to play - You're not going to wait for it to hit the charts before buying one.

If you want to just copy the spec of your favourite guitarist - then buy signature models.

It's like saying nobody should buy a Blackstar - Which are just superb amps, simply because nobodies touring with one yet...

[indysmith]

I really dont care about what amp anyone uses, i do however think one should think ten times before investing money in something that has not yet proven its worth in musical history.

If everyone went by that logic, nobody would ever buy any new products and no musical history would ever be made, or it would just be extremely stagnant.
If you like the sound of an amp, yu use it. Why the hell does it matter in the slightest what its history is, or who else has used it, blah blah blah.
I agree that tried-and-tested products offer a degree of safety for the consumer, as they know what they're buying is (or isn't) a quality product, but what your saying is just ridiculous.

[Henk]

:lol:

Anyway, taking something out of context is pointless also.

Anyway, alot of talk about great part from taiwan and whatever, still i doubt anyone would buy a bad sounding amp.

I do know my 'run-of-the-mill' or whatever Marshall amps sound good for what they are used for and have at least doubled in value since i bought them.

Yes, the demand for certain amps is high and im taking advantage of that factor. Are all these people who desperately want a bluesbreaker because Clapton had one stupid because they can buy a better build amp for the same money?

Well im not getting into that really. I am trying to give an usefull piece of advice, a friend of mine had bought a booteek amp for way too much money IMO and when he wanted to sell it he couldnt get rid of it for half of what it cost him, just because noone knew it and didnt care to try.

And even then and amp amplifies, sounds good or not, i never said it wasnt that simple. Actually i did say it was that simple.

Anyway, ive gotten even more interested in those Matamps of yours Martinw, got to check em out if i have the opportunity. Ive heard alot of bad tubes and caps in old amps too. But not in my landfill JCM and im eager to see how it holds up :twisted:

[Bird]

Wow did this thread go for a ride.  :lol:  Someone mentioned that the low watt amps have to be cranked to get a good sound. Seems to be the case. In the guitar world review on the Blackheart he says the amp is very loud despite being 3 to 5 watts. To get nice tone out of it he's got it cranked. Guess I'll have to go with the Mesa Roadster  

[indysmith]

Guess I'll have to go with the Mesa Roadster  

well that is the obvious solution :lol:

[Bird]

Guess I'll have to go with the Mesa Roadster  

well that is the obvious solution :lol:

  :lol:  It's just the amp at the top of my list right now... guess I neglected to mention that.  :)

[Twinfan]

Anyway, taking something out of context is pointless also.

Anyway, alot of talk about great part from taiwan and whatever, still i doubt anyone would buy a bad sounding amp.

I do know my 'run-of-the-mill' or whatever Marshall amps sound good for what they are used for and have at least doubled in value since i bought them.

Yes, the demand for certain amps is high and im taking advantage of that factor. Are all these people who desperately want a bluesbreaker because Clapton had one stupid because they can buy a better build amp for the same money?

Well im not getting into that really. I am trying to give an usefull piece of advice, a friend of mine had bought a booteek amp for way too much money IMO and when he wanted to sell it he couldnt get rid of it for half of what it cost him, just because noone knew it and didnt care to try.

And even then and amp amplifies, sounds good or not, i never said it wasnt that simple. Actually i did say it was that simple.

Anyway, ive gotten even more interested in those Matamps of yours Martinw, got to check em out if i have the opportunity. Ive heard alot of bad tubes and caps in old amps too. But not in my landfill JCM and im eager to see how it holds up :twisted:

How can I follow that???    :lol:

[PhilKing]

I have a lot of low powered amps, if you are talking 20w and less, in fact at the moment I only have 2 amps that are more than 20w, my 50W Silver Jubilee combo and my Trace Elliott BLX.

I have several Fenders (Deluxe Reverb, Princeton Reverb, Princeton II and a Silver Face hotrodded Princeton Reverb).  All of them (other than the hotrodded), use 2 6V6 output tubes and are 18-20w, however they all can get incredible clean tones, and can also get very gritty.  I also have quite a few boutique amps, which do have higher gain preamps, but can still clean up when needed.

Some amps are really not designed to have a 'clean' sound (one of my McIntyres has crunch and lead channels).  You have to figure out what you want.  Master volumes many times just end up with preamp gain with no power tube distortion, and this sounds much less defined than having some of the crunch from the power tubes.  

Going with an amp with a Triode/Pentode or class A/AB switching will give a better low volume tone than a master volume IMHO.  

I have had many older valve amps and was emailing with Nik from Ceriatone about some of the sounds that I liked from them.  I am getting a couple of amps from him and they will be higher wattage than anything I currently have (actually about the same as the Silver Jubilee), but will have triode/pentode switching for the output valves.

Speakers also make a big difference, many low power amps have a single 8, 10 or perhaps 12 inch speaker, vs multiple speakers for higher powered amps.  I always feel that you get more clarity from multiple speakers.  Another think is the sensitivity of the speaker, using a 93db G12M vs a 100db Vintage 30 will cut the volume significantly if you are using it with the same amp and settings.

The best bet is to try a few, but don't be put off with the wattage.  You have to decide if you want more clean headroom, and if you do, then you can always do what we used to do in the past, which is use a pedal to drive the amp so you don't have to bring up the volume.

[Kilby]

I was going to post earlier but thankfully the proxy I have to use in work prevents 90% of posts.

Firstly after 8 hours I'm still trying get my head around being told that Hiwatt amps sound cheap, of all the amps you could mention it's a pretty poor choice (sorry Henk, are you talking about the hiwatt badged practice amps ?)

Secondly I hope that I am not being overly generous by saying that the current spat is being caused by English not being Henks 1st language (you actually do come across as patronising and combative in so many threads.)

Bigger is not always better, but can be much more fun.

Personally I like small amps being pushed to their limit, for example the ZVex nano head (0.7 watts) was to get a cranked plexi type sound without a high death rate for studio microphones, not the best amp in the world but it sounds excellent when used in the correct context.

Many people have used smaller amps to great effect (Billy Gibbons (Old Grey Whistle Test appearence 1980), Clapton (once he stopped being a guitar hero)) but live they used something larger (and involving payment) otherwise how can the endorsement deals for MusicMan amps be accounted for.

I loved the live Hendrix tone from the 100 watters with the sound coming from poweramp distortion and speakers getting upset, I love the Gilmour tone from a clean(ish) amp and well chosen pedals and I love Gibbons @ the BBC with a 5 watt no name amp.

Old amps can be sh1te or brilliant, but natural selection (old cr@p ones where became landfill or where fixed), selective memory and the emperors new clothes syndrome takes care of the rest.

Some modern boutique amps are also sh1te, perhaps more suited to the studio or actually amazing. Each should be judged on tone and reliability (not the build date or who once played it)

Resale dosn't reflect quality or tone, but current trends (emperors new clothes) and brand name.

I'm biased towards Twinfans point of view that a good basic design, with good quality componants will give a great tone (dependant on the players fingers), and you basically have to pay for that. That is not something Marshall have EVER been known for.

A Chinese mfgr with decent components and PCB construction can also produce a great sounding amp with a properly designed PCB. P2P wiring is so good for running repairs and low volume production, but P2P is NOT required for great tone.

I was trained in this sh1t (but escaped to something that pays much better).

Lets get back to the original topic of a good quality low wattage amp.

[Henk]

How can I follow that???    :lol:

That is the whole problem in this discussion anyway  :P . Not that you dont understand, but you seem to get a kick out of being a barsteward about peoples opinions.

At risk of getting flamed once again for it, which i am quite used to anyway, lets explain the same thing all over again........

Those old amps have proven their worth, like is said, the bad samples have been tossed or brought up to proper performance, the bad ones are easily identified when listened to. Once made with whatever quality parts isnt much of an arguement, if an amp has worked well for 30 some years and it still sounds good, its not likely to be a cr@p amp.

Secondly, i dont care what someone buys, the only thing i wanted to say on this subject is that after years of buying and selling AND having developed quite a GASSY syndrome as far as guitar equipment is consearned. My conclusion is that i can get -at least- a decent tone out of any amp, and enjoy finding those really great tones, and that what pissed me off afterwards is that when i wanted to sell something the lack of demand made me lose alot of money on them OR noone wanted it at all and i had it standing around without using it. The persuit for the 'perfect' tone is something different though, i dont really care about that because i think that concept changes too much with me anyway.

Thirdly, to me at least, the reference of sounds players before me have used. It just makes seaching for sounds much easier, cr@ppy arguement probably, but to me thats an interesting factor.

Finally, no matter what i or anyone else says here, if someone doesnt want to be convinced, they wont be anyway. You can all disagree with me, but this is my opinion.

Secondly I hope that I am not being overly generous by saying that the current spat is being caused by English not being Henks 1st language (you actually do come across as patronising and combative in so many threads.)

Well, i can imagine that my english isnt up to the standard here. And i do not have the 'british' reserve, calling me patronising and combative is in this respect probably true for some of you. Taking the situation into account(i AM saying stuff some people wont like to hear!) i dont think i have crossed any lines, if so feel free to notify me with a pm or whatever.

And for that matter, i do feel free to express my opinion, rethinking what i have wrote i may be have said stuff some dont like to hear, but i really dont think i might have offended someone, at least not someone who offended me to start with.

[Twinfan]

How can I follow that???    :lol:

That is the whole problem in this discussion anyway  :P . Not that you dont understand, but you seem to get a kick out of being a barsteward about peoples opinions.

OK - I'll admit I got a bit childish at the end of yesterday.  For that I apologise.

And just to clarify I'm not getting a kick out of anything.  You've stated your opinions on some things as being 'fact'.  That needed correcting, so I've done so for the benefit of folks reading this and other posts.

From what you've said, it sounds like you've bought lots of music gear in the past only to lose a lot of money on it?  So you're advising people to only buy Gibson, Fender and Marshall so they don't get burned like you did?  Is that right?

[Henk]

OK - I'll admit I got a bit childish at the end of yesterday.  For that I apologise.

And just to clarify I'm not getting a kick out of anything.  You've stated your opinions on some things as being 'fact'.  That needed correcting, so I've done so for the benefit of folks reading this and other posts.

From what you've said, it sounds like you've bought lots of music gear in the past only to lose a lot of money on it?  So you're advising people to only buy Gibson, Fender and Marshall so they don't get burned like you did?  Is that right?

Well ok, there are no facts, maybe generally acepted opinions, but even then its a rather stupid thing to say here i agree and apologise for that.

I am advicing to consider what you are buying in terms of resale value ALSO, at least ive tried to do that. Offcourse im not trying to say people should only buy Fender/Gibson/Marshall, if anything im saying some amps(OLD Fenders/Gibsons/Marshalls for example) have better resale value, vintage gear are pretty high quality usually and if kept well, can serve you very well for many years, even increasing in value if your lucky.

Talking amps for a sec, the early 2203's, which a few years ago could be bought for a couple of hundred euros, now are worth at least twice as much if you managed to get a good clean sample, and thats a conservative estimate, ive seen those 2203's now being sold for more then 1500 euros.

That at least to me seemed an interesting arguement to consider, at least if your into vintage amp sounds at least.

I know it wont be an interesting POV to everyone, but for some i guess it could save alot of money or even make some in the long run.

Thinking about this i dont know if i would have missed out on using anything other then the amps i have now, well i do think versatility is a very big factor ampwise, if not the biggest factor. If you need several amps to play the sounds you want.......

Thats kind of the thing i have against small amps(to get back on topic), its all getting too commercial for my taste. They probably sound good cranked, but when you need a different sound you then need to get another amp and so on and so forth. I personally rather have a very versatile amp which maybe doesnt shine at some sounds, but has an overall tone that appeals to me.

Anyway, alot to think about i guess. To answer your question TF, yes, if i knew what i know now about the amps i have i would not have bought all the other gear. On the other hand, i am kind off stuck in the vintage tone department and i love it, and i suppose for anyone thats not, having a vintage amp wont get you anywhere in the modern tonerange. Well offcourse a good clean/vintage amp might do the trick, Fender Bassman head or something like that, owell, im blabbering again....

So there, now im really fed up with talking about what i think, ill try to shut it more often, i promise, really i will   :roll:

EDIT: To be clear about this, i do think resale value is just one factor to consider, this should not apply to those in persuit of 'the perfect tone', that offcourse has to do with quality parts and such. If i led anyone to believe this i apologise for that. Vintage amps do have certain oddities and quirks soundwise, some might find that adding to the character of the tone, alot would probably find that very irritating.

[Twinfan]

Resale is all well and good, and it's something to consider I guess, but I would say the overriding factor in deciding to buy a piece of musical gear is whether it sounds good.  I've NEVER bought anything based on resale.

I'd say buy with your ears.  If you like the sound of something - buy it  :)

[Kilby]

Well, i can imagine that my english isnt up to the standard here. And i do not have the 'british' reserve, calling me patronising and combative is in this respect probably true for some of you. Taking the situation into account(i AM saying stuff some people wont like to hear!) i dont think i have crossed any lines, if so feel free to notify me with a pm or whatever.

It wasn't a criticism of your English (I only have about 6 words of Dutch so I really cant critisize), but in the way the message actually reads, it is a problem that we all suffer from on occasions.

Personally I can do without combative side of things (if I want that I can spend some extra time in work :roll:) and I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way. If it was a conversation in a bar I'm sure it would have sounded much more good natured than what appears on screen within this thread.

This is a public thread with somebody asking for advice so lets respect that fact and get back to the original post.