Low Power Amps

[Twinfan]

Allright, we were talking about quality amps though, it is your opinion the modern vintage amps are made from cr@p parts, i have no opinion on that subject.

I didn't say cr@p parts, just less than ideal.  Marshall are famous for being tight on costs.

I actually am pretty sure i can make your precious clone sound like sheit by the way, not every guitar shines on an amp.

I can also make it sound bad too - by doing my EVH impression for example  :roll:  And who said it's precious?  It's a working tool.

A vintage amps is simple, made from way better parts then any chinese can make now.....

I disagree.  Some of the parts used in 'vintage' Marshalls were low quality or incorrect, especially as time went on.  For example the output transformer on a JTM45 was underspec'd from day one and they were cheap to buy!  In the seventies circuits and parts were changed to keep costs down, and PCBs were added to reduce build costs.  Marshall have never been a high quality maker, they built amps that were "good enough".

I would be glad to hear of your clones keeping up with that for so many years.....

I'll let you know how I get on.  Mine is rehearsed and gigged regularly, and the new one will be too  :)

[Henk]

Yeah well, pretty much the whole manifacturing deal is to build something great at low cost, not only Marshall does that.

But anyway, to prevent a yes/no foodfight i guess your idea of a good standard is different from mine. I wouldnt say the JTM45 had a cheapo tranny because they just were made like that, and sounded great for that matter. Somehow i allways though this kind of talk were put into the world so it would seem there is a 'better' version of the same vintage amp. To be honest i dont know, the cheapo clones ive tried didnt convince me at least. Like i said before i think most quality booteek ' low wattage' amps have a huge cranked lead tone, but when you try to find a decent brownsound or even just a smashingly emo clean its clear again that everything comes at a big tradeoff and those vintage model amps just cant be beat.

I really dont care about what amp anyone uses, i do however think one should think ten times before investing money in something that has not yet proven its worth in musical history.

[Twinfan]

Yeah well, pretty much the whole manifacturing deal is to build something great at low cost, not only Marshall does that.

Rubbish.  Do Ferrari, who are a manufacturer, build something great at low cost?  No.  They build something that's cost effective, something that gives them a profit of course, but they are not building something at 'low cost'.  A Ferrari is pretty damn expensive to make!

To be honest i dont know, the cheapo clones ive tried didnt convince me at least.

Which ones have you tried?  What makes an amp a 'cheapo' clone?

Like i said before i think most quality booteek ' low wattage' amps have a huge cranked lead tone, but when you try to find a decent brownsound or even just a smashingly emo clean its clear again that everything comes at a big tradeoff

I agree.  Small boutique amps are generally designed to sound saturated for recording purposes, so there's a compromise.  Clean headroom and 'space' in the tone being the obvious one.

I really dont care about what amp anyone uses, i do however think one should think ten times before investing money in something that has not yet proven its worth in musical history.

Do you SERIOUSLY believe that?  How does something get to "prove it's worth" unless someone buys it/gigs it/records with it in the first place?  So Clapton thought "ten times" before recording the Beano album with an unpopular Les Paul and a brand new Bluesbreaker combo did he?

I guess he should have used an old Martin acoustic, a ribbon mic and a valve radio......

[Gizmo]

I think its all subjective to your tastes tbh. With the boutique amps and high prices, yes you are paying a premium for name and the fact its hand made but you are paying for high quality components to get the best potential sound from an amp (e.g Bogner Shiva) and reliability but it doesnt guarantee it.

The fact a component is cheap may not be a disadvantage. It may sound great.

I think reliability is questionable with old amps. You're right in saying if you've gigis with it for years then it is realiable but the chance of fault with cheaper parts is higher. I dont think you can say they were that reliable. Hendrix used to burn through his. Also, big bands have techs and spares so you wouldnt know when things go wrong.

Clones are only as good as the parts and the person who puts them together.


Anyway.... Low Watts amps? Some of you mentioned you get better sounds with high watters at low volume? HOw do you achieve this? Is this done through Master volumes/Attenuators/power scaling or just nudging the amp till you get the volume low enough?

[Twinfan]

Anyway.... Low Watts amps? Some of you mentioned you get better sounds with high watters at low volume? HOw do you achieve this? Is this done through Master volumes/Attenuators/power scaling or just nudging the amp till you get the volume low enough?

A master volume for me with my Klipp Super Bass, or an HT-Dual pedal though my JTM45 set clean.  I prefer the latter in particular to the built in valve overdrive of my Matamp Little Rock.  More space, more clarity, better harmonic complexity.

[Henk]

Rubbish.  Do Ferrari, who are a manufacturer, build something great at low cost?  No.  They build something that's cost effective, something that gives them a profit of course, but they are not building something at 'low cost'.  A Ferrari is pretty damn expensive to make!

Offcourse they make alot of profit on those, are you that naive? A factories overhead/labor alone cost probably more then just the parts.

Which ones have you tried?  What makes an amp a 'cheapo' clone?

Alot of London cities, Rockaforte(?), Floyd, Sovtek, Hiwatt, Gun(?), Metro and probably a couple of others i cant remember. Not all cheapo but sounded like something that is cheaply made to me at least.

But still, its not the question you should be asking yourself, you should be asking yourself where the hell you can check out a real vintage Marshall so you at least have a rough idea why i am saying this stuff. You can try and convince the hell out of me, but please dont say your jtm45 will whoopass a real vintage one.......

Do you SERIOUSLY believe that?  How does something get to "prove it's worth" unless someone buys it/gigs it/records with it in the first place?  So Clapton thought "ten times" before recording the Beano album with an unpopular Les Paul and a brand new Bluesbreaker combo did he?

I guess he should have used an old Martin acoustic, a ribbon mic and a valve radio......

Youre comparing apples and eggs, obviously there was no such reference back then. And obviously there also were no amps that could do what was needed in that era. Industrial revolution peaked in the late 60's, early 70's and amps made in that era are considered to be the best made amps ever. You can disagree what you want, its just the friggin plain truth.

This reference, listening to music of your favorite guitarist, trying to play his stuff, is not only a big motivation but has been a great source of inspiration to many. Yes i have a Bluesbreaker reissue and yes the though of Claptons music made me interested in it since i had a reference of which sounds i could get from it. And yes it helped me find even more of the sounds i have in my head and yes i enjoy playing it and thats what its about. The versatility to try different things, be creative and offcourse making a mess of it too.

All adds to the creative process, inventing the wheel all over again is not for everyone, i would think someone playing in an AC/DC cover band should at least understand that.

And even then, you seem to have alot of vintage stuff, cloned or not, who are you to advice people to try modern designed gear.... ey?

Greetings and sorry for the lengtly read, Henk[/quote]

[Twinfan]

Alot of London cities, Rockaforte(?), Floyd, Sovtek, Hiwatt, Gun(?), Metro and probably a couple of others i cant remember. Not all cheapo but sounded like something that is cheaply made to me at least.

They're not all clones, they're amps in their own right (Hiwatt for example).  You think a Metro amp sounds cheap?  I would say you're in the minority there as most people seem to love them - I've heard several soundclips and they sounded good to me!

But still, its not the question you should be asking yourself, you should be asking yourself where the hell you can check out a real vintage Marshall so you at least have a rough idea why i am saying this stuff. You can try and convince the hell out of me, but please dont say your jtm45 will whoopass a real vintage one.......

I've never said it would.  I'd certainly like to have the opportunity to do a comparison, especially if the old one was valved with JJs the same as mine  :)

Industrial revolution peaked in the late 60's, early 70's and amps made in that era are considered to be the best made amps ever. You can disagree what you want, its just the friggin plain truth.

So nobody thinks a  JCM800/Mesa Boogie/Cornford/Trainwreck/Dumble/Bogner is the best made amp ever?  I reckon I can find one or two  ;)  Your view is not the truth, it's just opinion.

And even then, you seem to have alot of vintage stuff, cloned or not, who are you to advice people to try modern designed gear.... ey?

I can advise people to try whatever I want to.  What they choose to do is up to them  :)

[Will]

Sorry dude, industrial revolution was the 1860s :P

to take a lil' politics trip, Britain has only just finished paying off huge loans from the US from WWII, although not alive then, looking at the 60's and 70's, people used what they could find, I am sure the valves used changed at some point due to sources drying up ?? or was that EL34s in the 90s.
If you want an example, look at early Milton Keynes.... *shudders*

edit: and Marshall is in MK :P didn't think of that at the time :? excuse me being stupid

[Tellboy]

Enough please girls. Stop bickering and go and have a practice and calm down :lol:

It doesn't matter if it's vintage, cloned, modern, hand wired, pcbs, massed produced, big transformers, valve, solid state, cr@p - if you're happy with the sound and it inspires you, great. You don't have to (and never will) convince everybody else you've got the most magical setup in the world - just play the ****ing thing and chill out.

[DeanS]

Popcorn anyone?!

[Tellboy]

Popcorn anyone?!

Sweet or salted?  :lol:

[Henk]

I can advise people to try whatever I want to.  What they choose to do is up to them  :)

Yeah well its clear your not taking this discussion seriously, nor the advice you give people who are seriously asking. Its always an easy way out to find an exeption, but so be it.

Oh and Will, i meant technological revolution obviously, sorry if i confused you..... :P

[Will]

Oh and Will, i meant technological revolution obviously, sorry if i confused you..... :P

I was being picky with your words    knew what you meant really lol

[martinw]

A few of points to add:
Firstly, the stock of old amps (vintage Marshalls or whatever) that is around now is the selected cream of the crop, subjected to many years of testing. The unreliable and poor sounding ones will have been consigned to landfill long ago.

Secondly, yes I've heard a few vintage amps of diffent kinds. Some sounded very nice. Some sounded cr@p. Bottom line is, there is no mojo or magic, except in the mind of someone who's just spent 10K and therefore needs, subconsciously, to convince themselves of the worth of their own judgement. Circuits is circuits, and parts is parts.

Thirdly, quality is quality, no matter which country it appears from. The Taiwanese etc can produce very high quality parts, consistently, for low prices. Ask anyone involved in the electronics industry. In electronic terms, quality now is better than ever, with all measurable data showing greater consistency, accuracy and longevity.

Fourthly, component value drift (why many older amps sound different to each other, and different to what they sounded like when new) needs to be considered. This can make (for example) and old amp sound darker (sometimes stated as mellow or warm) than the identical amp made with modern components, AND CRITICALLY, darker than it sounded itself when it was new. Personally I prefer the original sparkle and shimmer that the amps would have had when new!

Fifth, TF's right, Marshall etc were not building high quality amps back in the day. To say that these run-of -the-mill amps are in some way superior to any of the high quality, hand made amps available today (yes, including my own) is ascribing unsubstantiated magic to something just because it is old. I've poked around inside of, and more importantly listened to, enough old amps to know that it's nonsense.

 

[Gary]

I was actually more interested in the low wattage amps discussion and feel slightly responsible for mentioning boutique manufacturers and sending it off topic. Having said that, if you're interested in amps of that wattage (as I am) you can't ignore the boutique amps as loads of them are in the 18 - 20 watt range.