Independent builders - getting your guitars to the market?

[GuiTony]

Firstly I have absolutely no intention of becoming a guitar builder/seller, so there's no self-interest at work here.

As a guitar player and buyer, if I hadn't stumbed across this and other forums and become aware of some of the small/specialist/independent guitar builders, then I'd still be spending my money with Mr Gibson, Mr PRS and Mr Godin.  And good as they (mainly) are, it's a bit like saying "I like Status Quo, I don't need to listen to anything else".  (I am a Quo fan btw).

Guitar buying has been a very strong market, with many other 40-somethings trying to recapture their youth (yes, I have the sports car too  :oops: ), and with the financial ability to spend fairly serious money on doing so.  No more of the £100 clones that were all I could afford as a teenager.

There's also a thriving small-scale industry, a lot of it in sheds and spare rooms, producing some excellent quality instruments.  Some of those small scale businesses would like to be not-quite-so-small if only they could get their guitars to the buyers and sell some more!

But there seems to be a disconnect  between supply and demand, in that most buyers aren't aware of the small builders.  Most buyers will go along to their local retailer, and spend their cash based on the range stocked there.  But the small builder can't really afford to use retailers because of (a) the mark-up, (b) the money tied up in retailer-held stock, (c) the lack of connection with the buyer, (d) etc.  Each retailer will also only serve a fairly small local market, so unless the buyer happens to live in the same area as the builder, he's not going to see the builder's instruments in his local shop.

Just to be clear, I'm not criticsing retailers here.  My first, second, third (etc) guitars all came from retailers, without them, I wouldn't have been able to start playing, get my guitars set-up, get hold of spares, etc.

I'm not having a pop at the big guitar shows either, but the costs of having a stand there is probably equivalent to the total annual profit for some builders.  So that route isn't economically viable.

Some form of web presence is a must-do, but I couldn't see many buyers buying a £2000 guitar based on a web page picture ...

So ... what's the answer ... how do buyers connect with the independent builders (and vice versa)?

Is there an answer?

[hhcave]

Mmmm, well in Hong Kong (which is where i live if im not in the UK) you hear about these small luthiers by word of mouth and because it's such a small island there is no inconvenience to go pay him a visit and have a strum on a couple of his instruments...

It would be great if you could do something similar here in england but it's so big that its not exactly realistic to go visit every good luthier you hear about so i have no idea what can be done...

Maybe if they developed their websites more so they contain video footage, audio clips, good quality pics etc etc?

[WezV]

Maybe if they developed their websites more so they contain video footage, audio clips, good quality pics etc etc?

that all helps but its time not making guitars.. i should be getting a new website soon - but thats only because one of my ex students asked if he could use me for his final project at college- if it comes out nice i will use it.

The current website was done by me  - - - and its pretty lame!!

[badgermark]

I'd happily buy something hand built if I find it in a shop and it speaks to me.

Like if Wez decides to build a few of his Vendetta guitars (that's the super strat thing right?) and I come across one with the money I'd snap that bad boy up. Even if I wasn't aware of this forum or Wez's other builds. But again the important thing is finding it first and giving it a try.

I'm in the minority though, as a large portion of guitarists are like my Dad (US made Gibsons are his wet dreams, all about the brand), things like a big name are safe and comforting, even though they are overpriced and (sometimes) shoddier than a well made Squire.

[WezV]

my vendetta model is like the one i did for sue, single cutaway organicly shaped ravelle/iceman kind of thing

[badgermark]

my vendetta model is like the one i did for sue, single cutaway organicly shaped ravelle/iceman kind of thing

The point is the same! I'd still love to see a solution where people like Wez can display his guitars for ordinary folk to pass by and go "oh that looks nice, hand-built you say? Plays nice, I'll take it!" without being humped by a stores markup.

[WezV]

yeah sorry, i did have some in a guitarshop that was willing to display and not take an unreasonable cut but they were a little isolated and mainly stocked cheap guitars...  I'm not too worried about more exposure just yet .. but it would be nice to have a better way of selling the stuff i do that isnt commisioned

[ToneMonkey]

yeah sorry, i did have some in a guitarshop that was willing to display and not take an unreasonable cut but they were a little isolated and mainly stocked cheap guitars...

Yeah, but all the people around that part have 6 fingers on each hand so are good at the axe.  Their webbed feet also make them god swimmers  :D

I had an idea a while back about a small shop where you could showcase small builders work.  You could have a demo guitar for some/all builders so at least you can get a feel for what they do and their style.  At the end of the day, how do you decided on a builder unless you either play a guitar or have a leap of faith.  You could do boutique amps too.

The luthier I know has a nice little niche and he's mainly selling by word of mouth.

[GuiTony]

I had an idea a while back about a small shop where you could showcase small builders work.  You could have a demo guitar for some/all builders so at least you can get a feel for what they do and their style.  At the end of the day, how do you decided on a builder unless you either play a guitar or have a leap of faith.  You could do boutique amps too.

The luthier I know has a nice little niche and he's mainly selling by word of mouth.

One problem with the shop idea is that it has to be in one place only.  That's ok if you live within 50-100 miles of the shop, but would you really be willing to travel (say) from Aberdeen to Birmingham, or from Torquay to Manchester, or (etc) to take a look at the instruments?

Another problem is that a shop incurs all the overheads that the existing retailers have to bear - hence their markups ...

I was thinking perhaps some sort of independent-British-Luthier-show, perhaps held in 2-3 locations over the course of a year, avoiding the big (expensive) locations like Exel, Olympia, NEC, SECC, etc, restricted to the Luthiers themselves (ie no retailers, no PRS/Gibson/etc).  Boutique amp makers too.  Hey, even specialist pickup people!  

It would take some organising and co-ordination, but shouldn't be too expensive ... It would also be cheaper than a shop, could cover more locations than a shop.  

The luthiers themselves should attend, so they'd have direct contact with their potential buyers, starting to build that all important buyer relationship and profile ...

[FELINEGUITARS]

Maybe if they developed their websites more so they contain video footage, audio clips, good quality pics etc etc?

that all helps but its time not making guitars.. i should be getting a new website soon - but thats only because one of my ex students asked if he could use me for his final project at college- if it comes out nice i will use it.

The current website was done by me  - - - and its pretty lame!!

100% AGREE WITH YOU HERE WEZ
Mine gets done in fits and starts...
My brother did the initial design but it has been extensively overhauled by Afghan Dave and needs me to find the time to get stuff finished off and updated .

Right now what I desperately need to do is to get the for sale/shop bit working well

[opprobrium_9]

Firstly I have absolutely no intention of becoming a guitar builder/seller, so there's no self-interest at work here.

As a guitar player and buyer, if I hadn't stumbed across this and other forums and become aware of some of the small/specialist/independent guitar builders, then I'd still be spending my money with Mr Gibson, Mr PRS and Mr Godin.  And good as they (mainly) are, it's a bit like saying "I like Status Quo, I don't need to listen to anything else".  (I am a Quo fan btw).

Guitar buying has been a very strong market, with many other 40-somethings trying to recapture their youth (yes, I have the sports car too  :oops: ), and with the financial ability to spend fairly serious money on doing so.  No more of the £100 clones that were all I could afford as a teenager.

There's also a thriving small-scale industry, a lot of it in sheds and spare rooms, producing some excellent quality instruments.  Some of those small scale businesses would like to be not-quite-so-small if only they could get their guitars to the buyers and sell some more!

But there seems to be a disconnect  between supply and demand, in that most buyers aren't aware of the small builders.  Most buyers will go along to their local retailer, and spend their cash based on the range stocked there.  But the small builder can't really afford to use retailers because of (a) the mark-up, (b) the money tied up in retailer-held stock, (c) the lack of connection with the buyer, (d) etc.  Each retailer will also only serve a fairly small local market, so unless the buyer happens to live in the same area as the builder, he's not going to see the builder's instruments in his local shop.

Just to be clear, I'm not criticsing retailers here.  My first, second, third (etc) guitars all came from retailers, without them, I wouldn't have been able to start playing, get my guitars set-up, get hold of spares, etc.

I'm not having a pop at the big guitar shows either, but the costs of having a stand there is probably equivalent to the total annual profit for some builders.  So that route isn't economically viable.

Some form of web presence is a must-do, but I couldn't see many buyers buying a £2000 guitar based on a web page picture ...

So ... what's the answer ... how do buyers connect with the independent builders (and vice versa)?

Is there an answer?

For instance: Moser Guitars (USA) - these are really the cream of the crop when it comes to a "metal" guitar.  I am not saying they are necessarily great, i have never tried one, but some of them sure look cool.  However, the reason that the Moser name is so well respected is that Neal Moser has been working in the guitar industry a very considerable chunk of his life.  He was the masterbuilder at B.C. Rich guitars for quite some time (many of the designs you see now are his) until he broke off and established his own custom shop.  He has an operation where dealers bid for a license to sell his products and then they get showcased in various places around the country.  He also has an operation running out of China (?) that mass produces his models at discount prices so he can wholesale them.  In the world of guitar building, he has just about as much repute and success as a small time builder can.

The other good example is Alembic Guitars - These guys are not advertised in most shops, but similar to Moser they have certain specialty guitar stores bid to sell their product, and they become show cased at the store.  Most Alembic Guitars cost upwards of 15,000 USD however, so they certainly can afford to do a lot with their customs.  They have both a guitar assembly line for chosen models (that are to be showcased), and they have a custom shop.  They are pretty huge considering they are not anywhere close to as big as say Jackson or somebody.  They have their own factory etc, i mean they have a pretty opulent operation going for them, and many employees to boot.  However, one of the reasons why their arsenal and repute is so large is because they have been around forever - i mean, they built Jerry Garcia's signature guitar!  And of course they built some of the most famous basses for some of the most famous players and that's what turned many people on to Alembic.


So a i guess really there has to be a high level of salesmanship on the part of the builder.  There has to be strong connections within the musical world if you want to go anywhere: i.e. - hook some high ranking musicians.  You have to be willing to build for a long time before anything serious in terms of cash or repute happens.  Send advertisements to be published in all the major guitar magazines.  There are a lot of things you can do, but the key element is time i suppose.  Of course, i cannot speak from personal experience, but from talking to other people this is what i have picked up on.  Sorry if i mentioned something already said, i cannot be arsed to read the whole thread.  :roll:

[GuiTony]

So a i guess really there has to be a high level of salesmanship on the part of the builder.  There has to be strong connections within the musical world if you want to go anywhere: i.e. - hook some high ranking musicians.  You have to be willing to build for a long time before anything serious in terms of cash or repute happens.  

I think you've hit a couple of nails bang on the head.

Guitar building and salesmanship/management are 2 very different skills.  It would be unusual to find a single person who excels in both areas.  Therefore the good independent guitar builders often aren't the greatest sales people or business managers - they're great guitar builders instead.  They have to rely on friends to do favours (see Feline's comments re his website - and he's far from alone) just to get some of the basics in place.  

The musical world is an industry.  As in most industries, "connections" are built on the back of financial investment and support.  Small builders generally can't make that sort of commitment (eg large colour ads in the mags each month), nor invest the time to build strong personal relationships with the key people.

I also personally know of independent builders who - by chance - almost signed a fairly major band to an endorsement deal.  Purely because the guitarist came across one of the builder's guitars, picked it up, and liked it so much that he wanted it.  No major deal, just "you can have it for free if you play it on stage and mention us sometimes".  Then the band's management got involved and signed them to an endorsement deal with a much larger manufacturer.  The independent couldn't compete.

And finally - build for a  long time and build your rep.  Great, if you can afford it.  Because of the pitifully low margins for the indy builder, few can afford to run as anything other than a hobby - they need a main job to provide an income.  And the main job tends to take 60% of your time, family and "life" takes abother 30%, leaving not-a-lot-left to develop the hobby into a business.  When you're running something as a hobby, you can't commit the time that you need to build a business and reputation.  Catch 22.

But writing all the above just gave me another thought which I need to go check out  

More thoughts, comments, observations, moans & groans, suggestions??

[WezV]

Then the band's management got involved and signed them to an endorsement deal with a much larger manufacturer.  The independent couldn't compete.

actually thats just happened here as well, one of the local guys i do a lot of work for sold off a bass i made him last year because his management organised an endorsement deal with lakland and he has to play those live.  He has sold of everything because he didnt see the point of having them and not being able to play them (not a hoarder like some here), including a 75 jazz reissue i had almost convinced him to BKP - that one shocked me more because its the guitar you always see him with.. every band photo and gig!!

I cant offer endorsements and that means getting my guitars into the rising stars hands is even more difficult.

[FELINEGUITARS]

Then the band's management got involved and signed them to an endorsement deal with a much larger manufacturer.  The independent couldn't compete.

actually thats just happened here as well, one of the local guys i do a lot of work for sold off a bass i made him last year because his management organised an endorsement deal with lakland and he has to play those live.  He has sold of everything because he didnt see the point of having them and not being able to play them (not a hoarder like some here), including a 75 jazz reissue i had almost convinced him to BKP - that one shocked me more because its the guitar you always see him with.. every band photo and gig!!

I cant offer endorsements and that means getting my guitars into the rising stars hands is even more difficult.

That has nearly happened to me as well - goes something like this usually:
Player in an up and coming band tries your guitars and enters into a discussion about doing an "artist deal" and what the benefits would be to both parties.
Luthier looks forward to helping an up and coming star out and getting some attention as a result.
Next thing that happens is you get a call from the bands manager whose only skill in life is the art of blagging or strong-arming deals out of people asking "how many guitars a year will you be giving us and  how many as spares etc" and "what other financial inducements can you offer" . They are quick to point out that Fender can offer this or Yamaha can offer that. Of course the one man band cant hope to compete.

So the up and coming player wants your guitar because of how it plays or sounds but will have to play a big name because of the money deal.

How I view endorsements

A proper endorsement is where an artist uses a product, based on the fact that they enjoy using that product and enjoy it sufficiently to tell others that this is the case.
There are cases where an artist has grown up using a product or has had a working relationship with a company for some time and as the artist has grown to a position of prominence, there has been a degree of Kudos for the company whose product he or she is using. The first step of that process is that the artist has bought the product either new or secondhand.

When you read in magazines that a famous artist is now using brand X or brand Y, it is often easy to tell whether the artist has really developed an affinity with that product or whether they will play whatever is given them for free
Some artists are a bit “endorsamatic” - different brand each year – depending on who is willing to supply
This actually harms the whole endorsement process as it makes us all a bit sceptical about it.

We actually take a similar stance to that taken by Marshall amplifiers amongst others - including BKP
We don’t give away any product – all products are paid for, which actually gives meaning to the endorsement process
However they may do an artist deal/special price based on the realistic exposure that it would provide

As a small company this is very important as to give away guitars would mean that someone (and that would be ME) has to go without wages for several months- so that is a route that we would not chose to go
But we are very interested in developing real  professional relationships with artists and we have in the past offered Artists Deals, where the artist pays a better price for the instrument based on the realistic exposure that it would provide

[WezV]

spot on again feline, i only offered him a good deal in the first place because i have known the band for so long.  I still do all his other work for him and can garantee it wont be long before the laklands he is getting come in for some mods.

i  have always beleived that if someone isnt willing to pay then they dont appreciate the product anyway... maybe there are a few guitarists in the world i would give something for free, but most of them are rich enough that they should be willing to pay.