10p tax rate

[Johnny Mac]

at least they gave us minimum wage, people always focus on the now, ye I don't like losing the 10p tax rate, all governments are bad, their first priority is pleasing the public to stay in power next time round

you can't tax the mega rich because they'll just $%&# off to another country and thanks to the credit crunch public finances are going to suffer and that's the fault of banks not governments

if there was an election now the tories would win because people blame the government for inflation problems, the credit crisis and falling house prices when it's not in their control

+100000.

I go to sleep safely at night knowing that no matter how bad it is, if it were Tory - It would be alot worse.

How can it possibly be any worse? This government are the worst in this country's history!

I simply don't believe that's true.

Wel I can put that down to your age!  :lol:

My Father was in the Labour Party and this bunch have made him vote tory!

[ToneMonkey]

I was in the Labour Party a looooong time ago, never again.

Being honest, I think they've done a lot of good as well as the obvious bad.  Like someone pointed out on the first page, it's a lot better than the 80's.  I remember one summer (I grew up officially under the poverty line) when all we could eat were the apples off the tree in the back garden.  I was only a kid so I thought it was great.

I think the the abolishion of the 10% tax is a travesty.  I think they've seen the mistake now but are afraid to go back and change it.  Glad the basic 22% is comming down though.  I had £1,047.73 deductions out of my wages this month.

[dave_mc]

I personally am in favour of the US system of no more than two terms in office - its stops politicians become stale and corrupt and it stops a skills defiicit in government.  So on my reckoning ken should make way for someone else, preferable not Boris Johnson.

agreed. and it has the added bonus of stopping despots for life.

unless you live in russia, i guess.  :roll:

EDIT: what i don't understand is why people say "oh, labour aren't left-wing enough any more, i'm going to vote tory..."

 :?

why not vote lib dem? there must be 40 million people in this country saying, "you know, if it weren't a wasted vote, i'd vote for the lib dems..."


 

[FELINEGUITARS]

[
EDIT: what i don't understand is why people say "oh, labour aren't left-wing enough any more, i'm going to vote tory..."

 :?

why not vote lib dem? there must be 40 million people in this country saying, "you know, if it weren't a wasted vote, i'd vote for the lib dems..."


 

+100000000

I am tired of the pendulum of either Labour or Conservatives but never any other party.
One party wants to tax the poor and give the money to the rich and the other wants to tax everyone and give the money to foriegners

I'm no longer sure which party does which but I know that I want NEITHER

[sambo]

Proportional Representation is the way to go (ideally a non-partisan system altogether really as well). Good thing about the Lib Dems is that proportional Representation is part of their manifesto. Kudos to them for that.

[38thBeatle]

I can understand you saying that Sam except that PR can be more of a barrier to the process than it is a benefit. Not that I am defending the present system I would hasten to add and I wish I had an answer. Clearly something has to be done as the fact that politicians are now viewed with scorn.Not all of them deserve it -some I have known personally, of whatever party, embody all that is good in the desire to serve. Sadly, however, too many succumb to the party machine and they lose touch with those that put them there. The fundamental thing I think that many MPs have forgotten is that Governments are there to serve, they are there to carry out the will of the people, they are supposed to ensure the wellbeing of their bosses, i.e. the electorate. Most of all they must remember that they are entrusted with the power they have to use wisely and for the good of the people and they must return that to the people intact. Instead there are those that lord it about, instantly forget their ideals and who put them there and the worst sin of all, they stop listening.

[Will]

Yeah, Sam... PR just has other side effects, less consituent background, so the politicians are less accountable.

So eg. if the Asian population is 2% and the female population is 50% that means that there has to be a male and a female asian or whatever. And we all know China's laws of one child, so its less likely that there will be  50%  females within the Asian community. What do you do then?

Whatever you choose, people will oppose it.

What I have learnt from A level politics: this country's politics is shite, and whatever happens, people will complain, and then not vote the opposite way, and you just can't win
America: slightly better in some aspects, but they have to vote for everything! so they get bored of ticking candidates boxes and can't be arsed leading to a low turnout.

[Elliot]

Im pretty much against PR - all it does is make for weak governments that can fall by the minute - Look at Italy, by all accounts Silvio Burlusconi is unpopular but he's back again because the popular government couldn't hold it together under Prodi (which is probably right given that he is was the German/French axis lap dog when he was president of the EU)

On the other hand strong governments make for elected dictatorships - 3 year elections and no more than 2 terms per Prime Minister (and why not per MP) seem to provide better chances of better representation and governments that can do something.  Of course as all politicians these days are career politicians, having never had a real job, they will be against it and we will have 5-6 year elections and unlimited terms.

Can I say that compared to other boards this discussion has been mature and without backbiting and trolling - which is always a good thing!  :D

[Will]

Also, to have such a change in our country would be a bit hard / weird
In the US they have the consitution, so everything is entrenched or enshrined, or codified (yes, using these words makes you get extra browny points) so if something is to be changed, it can be written down in one place.

Whereas I do believe that we do not have one central document that says what we can and can't do. eg. bear arms, arm bears, and all points in between (oh, examples are extra browny points too)

[Philly Q]

Of course as all politicians these days are career politicians, having never had a real job, they will be against it and we will have 5-6 year elections and unlimited terms.

True, and I think the fact that most of our politicians nowadays are career politicians is a big part of the problem.  They may (or may not) start with genuine ideals and good intentions but they don't know anything about the real world.  

Many of them have never - at least in their working lives - used public transport, or experienced the NHS, or sent their kids to state schools (and that includes the Labour ones!).  And at the other end of the scale, they've never had to run a business or be genuinely accountable for their day-to-day decisions.  As a result of all that, they think they can solve problems by throwing money at them - and they judge "success" by small changes in percentages and statistics.

If you took Cameron, Clegg and the Blair of 10 years ago there's almost no difference between them - they even look similar!

[HTH AMPS]

Of course as all politicians these days are career politicians, having never had a real job, they will be against it and we will have 5-6 year elections and unlimited terms.

True, and I think the fact that most of our politicians nowadays are career politicians is a big part of the problem.  They may (or may not) start with genuine ideals and good intentions but they don't know anything about the real world.  

Many of them have never - at least in their working lives - used public transport, or experienced the NHS, or sent their kids to state schools (and that includes the Labour ones!).  And at the other end of the scale, they've never had to run a business or be genuinely accountable for their day-to-day decisions.  As a result of all that, they think they can solve problems by throwing money at them - and they judge "success" by small changes in percentages and statistics.

If you took Cameron, Clegg and the Blair of 10 years ago there's almost no difference between them - they even look similar!

^ what they said  :lol:

you've also got to bear in mind that most MPs will just toe the party line and vote the way they're supposed to otherwise they'll be having to explain their position to the whips - most MPs are just used to their all-expenses-paid London digs, expense-account travel and a pay packet that funds the day-long lash up's in one of the many bars inside parliment.

[MrBump]

[
EDIT: what i don't understand is why people say "oh, labour aren't left-wing enough any more, i'm going to vote tory..."

 :?

why not vote lib dem? there must be 40 million people in this country saying, "you know, if it weren't a wasted vote, i'd vote for the lib dems..."


 

+100000000

I am tired of the pendulum of either Labour or Conservatives but never any other party.
One party wants to tax the poor and give the money to the rich and the other wants to tax everyone and give the money to foriegners

I'm no longer sure which party does which but I know that I want NEITHER

Absolutely agree.  From a POLICY point of view, Lib Dem seems to be more socially aware than New Labour at the moment.  And the "wasted vote" comment gets me every time!  I think that it's a line perpetutated by the other parties...  

But isn't it just the same old same old?  Power corrupts, ultimate power corrupts ultimately?  I was very happy in 1997 for many reasons (meeting my wife for the first time, Tories being kicked out, a rejuvinated Labour party gaining power after nearly 20 years in the wilderness...)  But that all ends when you realise that these people are just PEOPLE, just like us, with their own weaknesses and dark sides, their own agendas and side-politics.

I think that political parties just get tired of power and start f**king up.  The Tories were REALLY cr@p for about 10 years before we got rid of them.

Maybe it IS time for a change?  And I say that as something of a middle-leftie...

Mark.

[dave_mc]

 Of course as all politicians these days are career politicians, having never had a real job, they will be against it and we will have 5-6 year elections and unlimited terms.

yeah it really doesn't help that the only people with the power to change dirty politics are the politicians...

Also, to have such a change in our country would be a bit hard / weird
In the US they have the consitution, so everything is entrenched or enshrined, or codified (yes, using these words makes you get extra browny points) so if something is to be changed, it can be written down in one place.

Whereas I do believe that we do not have one central document that says what we can and can't do. eg. bear arms, arm bears, and all points in between (oh, examples are extra browny points too)

to play devil's advocate, though, the problem with a constitution (at least the way it is in the states), a lot of people think something is good or bad based on whether it's consitutional or not, and not on its own merits.

[plastercaster]

I was pro-PR, but recently, looking at italy especially, it just doesn't work. No government EVER gets the majority, and you end up with parties like BNP, UKIP, and god knows what else getting into power because Labour and Conservative need an extra 5-10% to form a winnig coalition.
Equally, first past the post is undemocratic - labour have a majority of 66 seats, so basically, all it takes is for the few hundred thousand (tops) people in the 34 most marginal seats to swing an election.
Obviously, anarchy is a no go (just look at 4chan)
Personally, I'd have a skeletal constitution, guarding freedom of speech, among other things, an elected "supreme court" and a dictator for life. Media influence over politics would be crushed, we could actually get stuff done without reams of re-reading and red tape.

Regards both low turnout and Johnny's "worst government ever" comment, i'd say the reason no-one votes is for the most part (at least at the last election), we're pretty happy. Sure, there was the Iraq war, Cash for honours, Blair vs. Brown, but really, who was directly affected by any of this? Labour stayed in due to mutual dislike for tories, but really, nothing massively radical has happened in politics for years, there's been no need. No matter who you vote for, they're going to tinker at the edges and no more. Turnout will rise when politics begins to affect what they really care about, and that's number one, and more specifically, number one's money.
The credit crisis will see Cameron and co in come 2010, if nothing else.