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Author Topic: Signal chain order and effects loop useage  (Read 4499 times)

Ian Price

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Signal chain order and effects loop useage
« on: May 28, 2008, 05:23:18 PM »
Afternoon all,

Just a quickie about stuff I don't have a complete grasp of. I have an effectys loop on my amp that I never use. I also have a few pedals:

Fulltone OCD
ZVEX Seek Wah
MXR EVH Flanger
Dunlop Crybaby
Boss DD3

What is the best order for these? I currently have them in the order listed above - OCD first, DD3 to amp. Also, which ones would be best through the effects loop of the amp - I am assuming that the OCD wouldn't be put through the loop.

Cheers,

Ian.
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hunter

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Signal chain order and effects loop useage
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2008, 05:34:43 PM »
Do you use the amp clean and do the drive with your pedals or do you use the drive channel on the amp together with the Delay?
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il˙ti

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Signal chain order and effects loop useage
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2008, 05:40:03 PM »
Wahs first, then OD/dist, then if you use the amp's gain, put the flanger and delay through the loop. If you only use the amp on the clean channel, I wouldn't bother with that (because cables are freakin' annoying) and just put it all infront of the amp in the same order but bypassing the loop.
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Ian Price

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Signal chain order and effects loop useage
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2008, 05:42:18 PM »
Quote from: hunter
Do you use the amp clean and do the drive with your pedals or do you use the drive channel on the amp together with the Delay?


I pretty much use the clean channel exclusively - assume it makes a difference?
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hunter

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Signal chain order and effects loop useage
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2008, 05:46:02 PM »
Quote from: Ian Price
Quote from: hunter
Do you use the amp clean and do the drive with your pedals or do you use the drive channel on the amp together with the Delay?


I pretty much use the clean channel exclusively - assume it makes a difference?


OK, I agree with what has been said before, no loop needed, you will retain more punch putting everything up front.

I would experiment with the order on the ZVEX Wah, the Dunlop Wah and the OCD. First, try different combinations of these three pedals alone. Wah can be interesting behind the overdrive too, especially if it's the fuzzy type.

Other than that it's pretty standard: Wah/Drive/Wah first, then modulation (Flanger) then rooms (Delay/Reverb) then amp.

If you get a bit of hair out of the amp, it will fatten up the delays, not too much though as then it will just mud out.
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Will

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Signal chain order and effects loop useage
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2008, 05:46:33 PM »
If you put a delay before the Overdrive, the delay signal will become distorted. So if you were using the amps gain, you could put the modulation / time based in the loop
Just curious, why do you put your wah after the OD? When I used one, I much preferred it before

jpfamps

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Signal chain order and effects loop useage
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2008, 06:21:23 PM »
Well the simple answer is whatever works for you, so experiment.

However the following info might be useful:

Cry Babys are notorious for "sucking tone" even when off as they are neither true bypass nor buffered. The newer ones may have solved this, however it is easy to check. With the Cry Bay off compare the sound of the guitar straight into the amp and through the Cry Baby. Certainly with older Cry Babys you will experience a dramatic loss of treble. This problem can be avoided by either placing a buffered pedal 1st in the signal chain, or by modifying the Crybaby to be true bypass.

Generally delay and flange would be put after the distortion stages. The absolute best way to do this (although impractical) is to mic your amp and add it from outboard effects units to another amp/PA. However as a substitute many people put these effects into an effects loop which is usually between the pre-amp and power amp.

Effects loops are can be series (most common) or parallel. In a series "loops" (actually not really loops but inserts) all the signal is routed via the effect. This means that any effect have the possibility of degrading your signal. Also, the voltage output of most valve guitar pre-amps is often 10s of volts — way too much for a pedal designed to accept a guitar level signal, and even too much for "line level". To get round this problem many manufacturers have send and return level adjustments before and after the loop. Even so the signal can still be too hot for some pedals. I have had a couple of people get in touch will me using DD3s in an effects loop and getting horrible distortion, essentially because the signal from that particular amp was way too hot.

Parallel loops with variable send and return levels, if implemented correctly, are better (although more expensive). In a parallel loop the signal is split, one signal sent to the effect unit and this is mixed with the other dry signal. You should always run effects unit at 100% wet so that the return from the effects units contains no dry signal. This is to avoid an potential phase cancellations with the dry (unless of course you like that sound).

Ian Price

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Signal chain order and effects loop useage
« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2008, 10:07:14 PM »
Quote from: Will
Just curious, why do you put your wah after the OD? When I used one, I much preferred it before


I'm pretty sure that I read somewhere to do it this way. From what everyone else has said I may have been reading upside down!
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hamfist

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Signal chain order and effects loop useage
« Reply #8 on: May 29, 2008, 08:27:01 AM »
Very good advice from pretty much everybody here.
  The traditional order is always ;-

wahs - distortion (from amp or OD's) - modulation - delay.

This doesn't mean that you can't experiment with different orders, as unusual tones can be had that way.
  If I remember rightly JPF's comments about certain pedals being unable to take the hot signal in many FX loops is relevant to the DD-3 as, from memory, I'm fairly sure that the DD-3 is not adjustable to accept a line level signal like the DD-20 is.
  But as you as using your amp clean, then putting all your pedals in front of the amp is ideal for you anyway.

JJretroTONEGOD

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Signal chain order and effects loop useage
« Reply #9 on: May 29, 2008, 03:52:33 PM »
all that being said, I think the basic thing is here there are no rules! if you dont try unusual things then you wont sound unusual. Look at Eddie Van Halen, using the MXR phaze 90 before overdrive and distortion, it sounds good. Plus it's a matter of taste but I prefer wha before od and distortion, and I also actually like the sound of delay before distorted sounds, it isnt necessary to follow what most people think is 'right', it's about what sounds you like.
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