I am not going to take this far because the last time i entered into a metal debate here it ended in flames (i assure you, no pun intended). But i will shortly address the following. This is not the forum for metal debates, especially given the genial attitude of everyone here. However, a portion of members in this place, like most paces on the internet and off, cannot see the boundaries between what metal is and isn't. I am not going to go on an uptight rant as i used to, i am just stating facts. I am probably going to get bashed for doing this, but i feel strongly about it so i am going to do it anyway. I don't want to derail the post, and i am really trying to be very civil. :)
And whats wrong with being a mix of metal and hardcore anyway? I know some brilliant bands that do it very succesfully.
Checking Last FM I see that Norma Jean, Ion Dissonance and Between the Buried and Me are listed as metalcore - All superb bands.
What I've got from this thread is that all "metalcore" is meant to be bad?
Consequently the only band that is metalcore on that list is Between the Buried and Me, and they are also the only band that has any basis for being metal in that list too. Norma Jean never has been, or was, Metal. Ion Dissonance has descended from a newer trend of the Lamb of God and Meshuggah traditions (and yes Ion Dissonance is closely related to the Metal band Despised Icon, but that means very little to their actual attributes as metal). Ion Dissonance is not Metal, and yes i do agree that they are good, interesting, and possess brilliant musicianship. But let me just point this out. Downtuned guitars, double bass, and blistering speeds does not make something metal. What makes something metal are the riffs. Newer Meshuggah can not even really be classified as Metal either, anything from "Nothing" and after just does not possess any Metal attributes. It doesn't stop me from loving Meshuggah, but just because it is heavy as fvck and fast does not make it metal. "Destroy, Erase, Improve," while a $%&#ing awesome album, only just fit the bill. That doesn't make it any less cool. However, there are so many bands that are considered metal that just aren't. It is a problem with the modern perception of what metal is, much skewed by heavier and heavier sounds immediately being attributed to and as metal. And the unfortunate truth is that so many people misuse the term to refer to things that have nothing to do with the genre. Sure, they may get some, or even a lot of influences from Metal bands, but it does not make them metal. For instance, the common misconception is that Nu-Metal bands are actually Metal, which is entirely untrue. And some people "in the know," so to speak, find it a vile association. The "Nu" classifier is synonymous with "false" or "pseudo." And just because a band classifies themselves as something means absolutely nothing as to what they actually are in reality. A clear cut example would be Bullet for My Valentine or HIM; the former claims to be Thrash, and devout Thrashheads piss on their name for two reasons: because they suck, and because they suck and claim to be pure breed Thrash when clearly they are morons and not even Metal at all. And HIM... well, i really hope i don't have to explain that one.
The whole Gothenburg thing has become an unwelcome cliche, but i will not go into that because too many people swoon over that stuff here, which is fine. I used to, but i got over it.
As for mixing Metal with hardcore, that is a difficult issue. The lines have become so blurred now it is hard to make any real distinction without a certain amount of discrimination. Old school crossover shite like SOD, Discharge, Amebix, D.R.I., Cryptic Slaughter, Cro-Mags, etc. all had a huge influence on trash and metal in general. However, the big difference between these bands and the hardcore/punk scene, is that they were highly apocalyptic and anti-humanist in ideology, or in the case of SOD and DRI specifically, contained high ironic values (later Power Violence would top these bands in extremity, but this is another story). Not only was their music a prefiguration of much Speed and Thrash, as well as later Grindcore, but their ideology was of high "metal" values. They were doing something that the other hardcore, crust, and punk bands weren't; because those bands were, at the time, much more humanist (among other things) in nature. Now the immediate conflict of mixing more modern, high intensity Metal with ideologies that are, for the most part, rife with anti-humanism, individualism, hate, hopelessness, death, rebellion on apocalyptic levels, etc. (and yes i know there are a fair share that are not, we must exclude most Speed and a lot of Power Metal) with Harcore is that the ideological bounds clash and weaken Metal's steadfast determination for individuality and freedom of mind. To have them together weakens whatever Metal attributes formerly stimulated the band, a band that is now weakened by association with the worker and all the other punk/hardcore values. Now many may say, "whatever," but it is nonetheless relevant, especially to those who care about what it means to "be metal." Furthermore, on a less ideological point - less to do with mixing, and more to do with the music - the general practice music in Metalcore, and its closely associated acts, has a real blandness in sound, and a general lack of ingenuity. Some bands escape this plague, but many don't and fail to recognize that their music, unlike so much of the great Metal produced, is not timeless and holds no real unique value chiefly because they use and reuse each others' cliched riffs. I could go on about this, but i have probably overstayed my welcome on this subject.
Trivium, Avenged Sevenfold, Bullet for my Valentine, All That Remains, Atreyu...
Despite my opinion that all of those bands are total shite, except for some 3 or 4 second intervals of ATR, only two of those bands have any basis for being metal: Trivium and ATR. And Trivium loosely fits the bill.
