Username: Password:

Author Topic: help with Mules  (Read 4423 times)

guitarando

  • Strawweight
  • *
  • Posts: 4
help with Mules
« on: September 30, 2008, 02:38:16 PM »
I have a calibrated set of mules suggested by Tim in a custom made axe.  Timbers are indigenous to Australia, Queensland Maple body (similar tonal qualities to Mahogany) capped with an arched blackwood top, which I think is quite a dence timber.  Anyway put the Mules in & they make the guitar sound very thin with too much treble.  Sound like single coils.  Can anyone suggest another set of BKP that might make this guitar sound balanced in tone & warmth.  I'm sort of thinking Peter Green's.  I bought a calibrated set of Black Dogs at the same time & put them in a custom Orville LP & they sound amazing.  Should I try the P.A.F's that came out of that?? Any response will be welcomed.

Lord Blakers

  • Bantamweight
  • **
  • Posts: 141
Re: help with Mules
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2008, 02:50:00 PM »
Thin and trebly are two words I wouldn't use to describe Mules. Check your wiring first.
BKPs: Warpigs, VHIIs, Holy Diver, Juggernauts

AndyR

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 4715
  • Where's all the top end gone?
    • My Offerings
Re: help with Mules
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2008, 02:58:32 PM »
I'd agree with Monkey - check your wiring.

I had my Mules in a bright sounding Epi LP originally, then switched them to a Tokai Love Rock where they do exactly what I wanted.

I didn't really like them in the Epi, but I wouldn't have described them as "thin" or "like single coils". Something sounds not quite right.

Welcome to the forum by the way :D
Play or Download AndyR Music at http://www.alonetone.com/andyr

Twinfan

  • Light Heavyweight
  • ******
  • Posts: 10528
Re: help with Mules
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2008, 03:52:19 PM »
I found Mules very thin sounding in my Les Paul.  In that case, I tried several pickup sets and ended up selling the guitar for that and other reasons.

In your case, I'd try something quite hot and middy.  Maybe Nailbombs?

Antag

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 2071
Re: help with Mules
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2008, 04:05:57 PM »
Qld maple may sound "like" mahogany, but it's still a species of maple.  Also, based on my Taylor, blackwood has a tone somewhere between maple & koa (i.e. in the same ball park), so I'd approach this as I would a solid maple body & go for something ceramic.  Have a read of the comments in this thread.

Cold Sweat perhaps?
BKPs: HD, MM, NB, PK, CS, Ab (b&n); Am (b only); VHII, Tril (n only); IT, Slow, Sult (m&n)

Yamhammer

  • Guest
Re: help with Mules
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2008, 04:28:04 PM »
Annoying.
« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 01:11:51 AM by Yamhammer »

HTH AMPS

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 5649
    • HTH AMPS
Re: help with Mules
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2008, 04:41:27 PM »
I've got Mules in my Les Paul standard, 'thin' and 'single-coil' are not descriptives I'd ever use for them.

I would 100% check the wiring (2 conductors or 4 ???) and also verify the value of your pots (should be 500k)

Lastly, since your guitar is pretty much all-maple, it's definately going to edge towards the treble end of the spectrum and have alot of cut.  

I'd go with an alnico humbucker to keep things fat (ceramics may sound too harsh in an already bright guitar unless you play with death metal levels of gain).  Crawlers would be high on my list as would Emeralds.
Getting a Peter Green tone out of the guitar you describe seems like it's gonna be tough.

kellar

  • Lightweight
  • ***
  • Posts: 691
Re: help with Mules
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2008, 04:53:57 PM »
I agree with some of the above comments. Some pickups just don't work in some guitars. I had AIV Mules in my Epi LP and the bridge was very thin while the neck was too dark.
Calibrated IV Mules, Stormy Monday/Riff Raff

Neil F

  • Junior Flyweight
  • *
  • Posts: 33
Re: help with Mules
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2008, 07:22:42 PM »
Interested to read to I'm not the only person that didn't really get on with Mules in a LP. Actually, the neck pickup was nice but I didn't like the sound of the bridge pickup so much. I swapped it for a Nailbomb and that sounds great, and matches the Mule neck fine.

AndyR

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 4715
  • Where's all the top end gone?
    • My Offerings
Re: help with Mules
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2008, 07:58:58 PM »
^ I was thinking that as well Neil.

The general impression round here always seems to be "you want classic PAF? Mules will do yer, everytime..." and this thread seems to be contradicting that :roll:

So I thought I'd share my Mule experiences, sorry folks (waffle time)...

When I first got mine (I already had Riff Raffs, which did exactly what I expected and more), I was slightly under-whelmed with the Mules. I'd been expecting something else, some sort of "holy grail" of tone from them. My Epi LP is quite a bright and resonant basswood/maple-cap guitar, and they sounded "nice" but not what I was expecting.

I even went as far as buying a mahogany/maple-cap Tokai Love Rock to house them instead. Looking back, it seems a bit odd that I did this :lol: but it is a gorgeous guitar, and all round it beats the Epi for me, so I'm happy (and I got away with it with the missus - she thinks it's very pretty).

When I put the Mules in the Tokai, they did sound better for my tastes, but I have to admit not a whole lot different. Now I've got used to using them, I wouldn't part with them.

What I put it down to, certainly for me, was expectations: For years I'd been thinking "late 50s PAFs oo-ooh, that's what I need", because that's what the magazines and interviews I was reading were telling me. But what I'd been listening to is mainly late 60s to early 80s rock/pop/blues. I was imagining that Mules would get me a better version of the sounds I thought I was listening to.

So after I'd put the Mules in the Tokai, I started listening closely to recordings that I thought might well have real late 50s PAFs on - the "Beano" bluesbreaker album, earlier ZZ-top, the Allman Brothers, for example. And blow me, my Mule'd Tokai was actually making the noises on those records - not the noises I'd been imagining were on those records! The bridge pickup is actually quite an offensive little thing, you need to control it with your picking and with the vol/tone on the guitar. And there is quite a big difference between bridge and neck - on some amp settings you can go from mud at one end to ice-pick at the other quite easily and feel very frustrated. You've got to get the amp settings to where they both work, and depending on what you want, it'll be a compromise of some sort for both pickups. But I've reached the conclusion that if I ever do play a guitar with real late 50s PAFs that's probably exactly what they'll do as well.

I agree with what everyone is saying about woods above - but I still think the best "first option" is to check the wiring. The bridge is thin in comparison to the neck, but if you think they both sound thin and like single coils in comparison to Black Dogs, then there's something not quite right. I'd even try wiring a pickup straight to the jack to rule out all the rest of the wiring. If I couldn't find anything wrong, then my next option would be to put the Orville's old pickups in and see what they do. Possibly even try the Black Dogs as well if I still wasn't getting any sense out of it.

It might well be that you eventually want something other than Mules, but it's best to make sure they're actually doing their job first...
« Last Edit: September 30, 2008, 08:11:22 PM by AndyR »
Play or Download AndyR Music at http://www.alonetone.com/andyr

Yamhammer

  • Guest
Re: help with Mules
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2008, 10:48:59 PM »
I also think it's the choice between low/medium output or high output.


« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 01:11:35 AM by Yamhammer »

Philly Q

  • Light Heavyweight
  • ******
  • Posts: 18109
Re: help with Mules
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2008, 11:35:40 PM »
Going back to the OP, guitarando, does your custom guitar have a bolt-on, neck-through or set neck?  What's the neck and fingerboard wood?  Does it have a fixed or tremolo bridge?  All these things will make a difference.

Since you have a set of Black Dogs in your LP and you're happy with them, why not try them in the custom?  Then you can confirm if it's the Mules that are the "problem", or the guitar itself.  :)
BKPs I've Got:  RR, BKP-91, ITs, VHII, CS set, Emeralds
BKPs I Had:  RY+Abraxas, Crawlers, BD+SM

Yamhammer

  • Guest
Re: help with Mules
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2008, 12:03:42 AM »
I completely agree with Phill



« Last Edit: December 08, 2008, 01:15:22 AM by Yamhammer »

guitarando

  • Strawweight
  • *
  • Posts: 4
Re: help with Mules
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2008, 06:45:04 AM »
Thanks so much for all the advice. Tim replied to me very promptly & thought it must be a wiring problem.  I'm checking with my luthier who installed them about that now.  To me it sounds like a problem, from the wraps I researched about the mules I thought no way they can sound like this.  I have seen/heard Warren Haynes play in the Allman Bros last year in the USA so I have been very close to that tone.
The neck is set, it's Queensland Maple too with a rosewood fretboard & wrap around tone pros bridge.  I probably should have waited a bit longer before posting this & I would have had Tim's reply to check out the wiring.  Oh well at least we are having a healthy chat about some great pickups that I think in the long run may suit this guitar.  I reckon Tim was right all along suggesting the Mules.  I'll get back to you as soon as I find out if iot's wired properly. Thanks Ando

sjwebb90

  • Bantamweight
  • **
  • Posts: 118
Re: help with Mules
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2008, 07:10:03 PM »
It worth checking the actually values of the pots with a multimeter. Pots are notoriously inaccurate. I have seen 500K pots read anywhere between 400K and 550K. If they read too low the guitar will appear dark, if they read too high it sound thin ,shrill and toppy.

I make sure that all my pots read close to the nomimal value. There are two way to achieve this.

If the pots reading too high,use Ohms law formula 1/R =1/R + 1/R ohms  to work out the resistor required to strap across the outer lugs of the pot to lower the value.

Or If the value is too low try the following:
http://www.lespaulforum.com/pots/potents2.html

My PRS Artist III sounded a bag of nail when I first acquired it, I could see why the bloke was getting rid of it.
However, lowering both Tone and Volume pots from 525K and 530K respectively to the nominal 500K value cured the problem.
The guitar has since been fitted with Rebel Yells and it has raised the playing experience yet again.

All my guitars have benefited from paying close attention to getting the pot values close to the 500K nominal. I have also rewired them with the 22AWG vintage cloth wire .
http://www.allparts.uk.com/electronics/wire-c-277_1_81_90.html

PRS Mahogany with Maple cap,   Rosewood Fretboard            Rebel Yells
PRS Mahogany with Maple cap,   Rosewood fretboard            Crawlers
Charvel Basswood,                      Rosewood Fretboard           Nailbomb, Irish Tours

Cheers
SJ

 
PRS Stop tail CU22 Crawler covered  set,  PRS Trem CU22 Abraxas covered set, PRS SC Trem Crawler covered set & (Charval 475 HSS- Holydiver, Irish Tours open set)