THAT IS NOT FAIR!

[AndyR]

^ Very well argued TF, and makes perfect sense - he's gonna come up with something though! :lol:

But I'm in the camp of "for me personally, anything over a grand is too expensive for a guitar", so much of it passes over my head!

(although I realise I am going to need to revisit this notional "limit" soon... :lol:)

[Twinfan]

I know what you mean Andy, I had a 'ceiling' of about £1500 until recently!!!  Funny how when you break that the sky becomes the limit  ;)

I'm sure Martin will be able to add something, I mean this IS a discussion forum isn't it?  We're discussing  :)  It's always good to hear other people's views.

Maybe I've got the Gibson Custom Shop wrong, but if they're using higher quality mahogany etc I would have thought they would say so?

[Lew]

It's hard to quantify value when your talking about the big brands because you're not paying for just the guitar, you're paying for the promotion, factories, employees etc...

Would Martamp, Feline and Legra cost what they do if it had to feed into the machine and maintain desirability etc... of-course not, they either made a moral decision about their product or haven't got big enough for it to make an impact yet.

[martinw]

  I'm not trying to say PRS don't overcharge, because for certain things they do.

Hooray, there's my point!

That's all I was trying to say! I accept all the other points in your post, and if you actually read through mine, you won't find anywhere where I either defend Gibson, or criticise PRS guitar quality!

Overcharging is overcharging, sauce, goose, gander and all that.
Gibson do it.  PRS do it.  PRS' better quality DOESN'T JUSTIFY it.

Now I am done.

[Lew]

I don't want to get stuck in your domestic but by the time you account for the wages for the employee that assembled and finished the guitar, the factories rent and the promotion needed to create and keep the desirability it is worth it to me and doesn't seem to really be out of line.

I would feel the same about Gibsons too if the qc was up there-even more so actually, as you're buying into a rich heritage.

I think private stocks are really overpriced as in my experience they play and sound just as good as the standard models, but your paying for the exotic and rare woods where as with Gibson custom shop you're buying into the set up and QC.

[Twinfan]

But PRSs raw materials justify it to a certain extent, there is an extra cost in getting rosewood neck blanks compared to mahogany ones for example.  The limited edition 'collectible' guitars such as Pauls 28s / Dragons / etc are probably the only real overcharging I see from PRS.  The Private Stock program is a true custom shop and they can charge whatever they want if someone feels the need to order something daft with solid gold inlays etc!  The vast majority of the guitars, i.e. those off the production line including 513s and Modern Eagles etc are priced well IMHO.

Gibson overcharge by CRAZY amounts for bits of plastic and minor spec tweaks.  That's my issue.

[hunter]

But PRSs raw materials justify it to a certain extent, there is an extra cost in getting rosewood neck blanks compared to mahogany ones for example.  The limited edition 'collectible' guitars such as Pauls 28s / Dragons / etc are probably the only real overcharging I see from PRS.  The Private Stock program is a true custom shop and they can charge whatever they want if someone feels the need to order something daft with solid gold inlays etc!  The vast majority of the guitars, i.e. those off the production line including 513s and Modern Eagles etc are priced well IMHO.

Gibson overcharge by CRAZY amounts for bits of plastic and minor spec tweaks.  That's my issue.

However, regarding your brazilian RW neck Dave, I can well imagine that Gibson corporate policy doesn't permit usage of woods that are under import restrictions. That's the thing with a huge company like Gibson (who also own several other brands and have a much bigger turnover than PRS), the press would eat them alive, whereas a relatively niche manufacturer like PRS (even if growing rapidly) is not that much in the shooting line yet.

I'm actually not sure if I'd want a Brazilian neck myself, as I am not 100% sure to what extend those trees are in danger of extinction. Anyone have some official info on this?

[Philly Q]

Maybe I've got the Gibson Custom Shop wrong, but if they're using higher quality mahogany etc I would have thought they would say so?

Don't want to get too embroiled in this, but I would assume Gibson do use better quality timbers in Custom Shop/higher priced models, because.... that's what you do in a Custom Shop, isn't it?

I agree they don't make a point of saying so, but in their promotional materials generally they never really say much about timber quality, number of pieces of wood in a body etc.  It's just their style.

When I had the Pete Townshend SG (which wasn't the Custom Shop one, just a high-end production model) it had a very high-quality one piece body, better rosewood in the fingerboard etc.  Whereas my cheaper Gibsons have had two or three-piece bodies.

[Lew]

But PRSs raw materials justify it to a certain extent, there is an extra cost in getting rosewood neck blanks compared to mahogany ones for example.  The limited edition 'collectible' guitars such as Pauls 28s / Dragons / etc are probably the only real overcharging I see from PRS.  The Private Stock program is a true custom shop and they can charge whatever they want if someone feels the need to order something daft with solid gold inlays etc!  The vast majority of the guitars, i.e. those off the production line including 513s and Modern Eagles etc are priced well IMHO.

Gibson overcharge by CRAZY amounts for bits of plastic and minor spec tweaks.  That's my issue.

However, regarding your brazilian RW neck Dave, I can well imagine that Gibson corporate policy doesn't permit usage of woods that are under import restrictions. That's the thing with a huge company like Gibson (who also own several other brands and have a much bigger turnover than PRS), the press would eat them alive, whereas a relatively niche manufacturer like PRS (even if growing rapidly) is not that much in the shooting line yet.

I'm actually not sure if I'd want a Brazilian neck myself, as I am not 100% sure to what extend those trees are in danger of extinction. Anyone have some official info on this?

I agree, I wouldn't use a new brw guitar when I know it's in danger-same reason I wouldn't eat an endangered species (no offence Dave your axe is beautifull).

[Philly Q]

I'm actually not sure if I'd want a Brazilian neck myself, as I am not 100% sure to what extend those trees are in danger of extinction. Anyone have some official info on this?

I don't think they're allowed to cut down any Brazilian rosewood trees any more.

And any wood used in guitar production etc has to be certified as being harvested before 1992, or something like that.



Edit:  Here we go:

Do I need a permit to export or import Brazilian rosewood?  Yes. Brazilian rosewood (Dalbergia nigra) is listed in CITES Appendix I.  Only plants, parts, products, or derivatives of Brazilian rosewood acquired prior to listing on June 11, 1992, may be used in commercial trade.

http://www.fws.gov/permits/faqs/FaqR.shtml

[Twinfan]

However, regarding your brazilian RW neck Dave, I can well imagine that Gibson corporate policy doesn't permit usage of woods that are under import restrictions. That's the thing with a huge company like Gibson (who also own several other brands and have a much bigger turnover than PRS), the press would eat them alive, whereas a relatively niche manufacturer like PRS (even if growing rapidly) is not that much in the shooting line yet.

I'm actually not sure if I'd want a Brazilian neck myself, as I am not 100% sure to what extend those trees are in danger of extinction. Anyone have some official info on this?

My guitar was made before the really big clamp down happened in 2007.  Up to that point, the use of Braz R/W needed to be documented but not in the way it does today.  Rumour has it that Gibson kicked off about the use of Braz after PRS won their Singlecut lawsuit, which has made CITES etc clamp down on its use.  Sour grapes?  :lol:

I get everyone's point though.  it's an endangered species and it should be governed properly.  I'm all for making sure it's looked after in the correct way.  I don't see a problem in using it if its from naturally fallen wood, old stock, or properly farmed trees etc.

[Twinfan]

Oh, as another point of interest.  Most of the Brazilian rosewood that PRS used or still owns was old stock bought from the Martin guitar company.  They decided it was too much hassle to use and document, so they sold it...

[Roobubba]

I like the way that the Gibson vs PRS issue has been hotly debated in this thread, whereas the universal truth that all Teles look cr@p has been quietly acknowledged with no fuss at all.

Magic :)

Roo

[hunter]

I don't see a problem in using it if its from naturally fallen wood, old stock, or properly farmed trees etc.

But that would be of minor quality, so no use in any PRS for it, right?

LOL

Anyways. I like your PRSs Dave, all of them. But even more an old flame burst Gibbo ticks my boxes, it's subjective after all.

In the end I might get a DGT, just because it's a damn fine looking, playing and sounding guitar, and I do like the occasional wobble on a Trem I gotta admit.

[Twinfan]

:lol:

Trems do nothing for me, but the DGT is supposed be an excellent instrument....