BOUTIQUE -- or BS?! -- Discussion

[Denim n Leather]

I was talking in generalities of human nature, no one specific in mind.

Then you, my friend, are a true cynic and I salute you!! You should move to NYC; you would thrive here!!!

[Denim n Leather]

for me the term boutique can be applied when a maker is aiming to replicate the best example of something... and possibly even improve on it.

e.g. they shouldnt just be aiming to build something that sounds like any marshall plexi - they should be aiming to sound like the best marshall plexi's... and hopefully they should know the difference!

This is my take on the issue as well. Take Scumback, for example. This is a man that bought a mess of vintage drivers, found the ones that sounded the best, and then purchased as many consecutive serial numbers as he could find, amassing a huge PHYSICAL DATABASE which served as his base level for the replicas. Each Scumback is a recreation of the idealised speaker it replicates, without the need of having to purchase a dozen Prerolla 12" drivers in order to (hopefully) get 4 that match!

[Denim n Leather]

I really hope I understood what you stated correctly, as this is a bit off topic.

The digitisation of music and lately the compression of it has made a huge difference to the skills base and real sounds.

I would say "over compression" and "amount of damage", but otherwise agree. :)

Talk to any of the early BBC or studio and live engineers from EMI or Deutche (sp) records and listen to any of those two mic recordings they made and you soon realise what a huge step [backwards] mass market music has taken.

You have slightly confused two issues, but I will address them both here.

First, what you call Mass Market music is made with only two purposes in mind:
1. It is created to be liked, devoid of any actual substance, and therefore what it actually sounds like or is about is irrelevant, and therefore void.

2. It is created to be the carrier frequency for consumerism; ie, to sell a lifestyle (cars, watches, bling, gadgets, etc etc)

So to compare Mass Market music to what I would call Handcrafted music is unfair from the get-go -- they serve different purposes (one tries to challenge and enrich the listener, the other seeks to anaesthesize).

Second, going back to the so-called Golden Age of recording, there was a lot of disposable music recorded then, as well. I do agree, however, that it was generally more carefully recorded due to two outstanding factors: there were  a lot less tracks (if any) at their disposal and there was virtually no way to fix a bad take in post production.

The other thing that changed recording quality forever was the advent of the electric guitar (yay!). Overnight the percussion section went from being the loudest part of a combo to being drowned out. That changed the way music was recorded and presented live forever.

Simply put, using a single 12" ribbon mic would not work in recording a band today due to the fact that music today is not designed to fit together the way acoustic instruments are. There are too many pieces to fit, even in a simple rock combo. (The sheer amount of items fighting for the precious midrange in a 4 piece rock band can only be handled with post-production)

To wrap up this (overly?) long post:


While I disagree that digital technology has made us dumber, it has certainly has the potential to make us more lazy if we are not careful.

[Zaned]

The only comment I will make on the true bypass subject is: an all-true-bypass pedal chain sounds like @ss!! Talk about marketing hype; Just as "pro lifers" attached a negative stigma to what is now called "pro choice" (If you're not pro life, then you MUST be ANTI life)** the people trying to sell us on true bypass came up with the nifty phrase tone suck. You don't want your tone to suck? Then use true bypass! Except, when every pedal is TB, your tone SUCKS!!! PDT_008

Very true! Well, it's just like using a very long cable, highs get sucked out and stuff like that. My pedalboard is true bypass except for two pedals; the first pedal on the signal chain, and my delay pedal on the FX loop.

The first pedal is this: http://www.mieffects.com/BnBinbrief.htm. When it's turned off, it's a high impedance buffer, removing you of the signal loss caused by all the cable on your pedalboard. When turned on, it's a clean boost for the first 15 dB, and a treble booster from there on. It's not very expensive, it's quiet and does exactly what it promises to. I definitely recommend it.

The delay pedal is not true bypass, but it's usually for a small delay, so it doesn't matter that much.

But back to the topic..whatever floats your boat. I like boutique builders; they pretty much always bring you the best quality, if they have the exact product you want. Or, they can build it. Sure, you can find the same thing on the mass produced products  :) But when you know what you want and go the boutique route, you'll probably end with a product that is second to none.

I don't think it's much different than having a custom guitar made by a smaller company/builder, as opposed to a mass produced guitar. We all know there are absolute gems in the mass produced guitars too, but the boutique (custom) quality is in AVERAGE much higher.

And what it all leads to? First, a personal fulfillment for the player. Satisfaction. If you give a comparison to an average listener on an 'OK' product and a 'Boutique' one, he will probably not hear much difference. This of course leads to the next question; is it worth it then, as the listener doesn't really know the difference? Well, the player knows the difference. That difference is very often inspiring, and an inspired player plays better. And that's what IS audible for the listener. And that why, ladies and gentlemen, it is worth it 8)

-Zaned

[hunter]

I think tone has much to do with who is playing (the fingers) as well as how well someone knows his gear.

I've been changing amps and stuff a lot, and sometimes I am just floored by a guy who comes along with a Marshall TSL or some Fender amp and sounds so badass that it hurts.

If people stick to their guns and gradually improve/dial them in, that's often worth more than NOS tubes or huge transformers.

And anyways, in the audience, 95% care shite on how the guitar sounds.

In the end it's about what people are craving for or what they like. I love expensive amps, the looks, the craftmanship, the tone, the feel. But I've decided against them for convenience reasons. Now I am emulating them and it's also much fun.

I don't think it's bullshitee. Major issue if you ask me is that most of the owners of boutique gear cannot really experience it in all its glory, because they don't have the band or place to turn it up real loud, which is when bouteek qualities really show.

[willo]

I don't think that people go back to 'classic' sounds to hark back to youth or nostalgia; its simply the accepted 'voice' of the guitar. Those sounds that were laid down back in the 50's/60's are now as timeless as a piano.

Anything that is heavily synthesised or modulated will age. Half of the reason the 1980s is laughed at is the use of synthesisers and heavily-modulated guitars (chorus, flange etc). These are trends, and they come and go. When they go, they sound remarkably dated quickly.

Yet the sound of an LP into a Marshall will never sound dated. How could it? It is the vocabulary of the guitar. It is the permanent foundation.

So we will always go back to those basics.

Beyond that, re: boutique, I'm not so sure. I used to get a lot of that stuff, but then an EHX LPB1 destroyed my D*A*M* pedal, so I'm open-minded. Its important to remember that a lot of 'classic tones' have been made with non-boutique gear. Frusciante makes a DS2 sing like a mofo, Gilmour's classic tones are LBMs, NOT the Cornishes, and so on.

It really is just about finding what gear reverberates with you. Those pedals 'clicked' with those guitarists. A lot of people find that more obscure, cool guitar inspires them to being yet more unique and drilling down to the CORE of who they are as a musician, and what makes them tick. Me, I have never found a better set up than my 1982 Navigator 335, through an EHX LPB-1 into a 1987 JCM800 4103...but what inspired Kurt Cobain was a Jag and a DS1. What is more 'right'? Neither. Its just a question of what works for me, what works for him. It's all colours of the same palette.

[Zaned]

I realized that my post is easily misread as stating that mass produced products cannot give that inspiration; that was not my intent. Most of my gear is NOT boutique. It's just stuff that I happen to match with. If I don't match with it, it goes. The point was that with boutique, you can pretty much guarantee quality..and satisfaction as long as you know what you want and the product is aimed for that!

-Zaned

[Bradock PI]

I really hope I understood what you stated correctly, as this is a bit off topic.

You have slightly confused two issues, but I will address them both here.

Sorry I was trying to put some of my comments into context in terms of background. I do agree with your comments one thing I will add is the real difference between now and then is :- then people would go and hear their bands in concerts and want to be able to listen to them at home so they went to buy recordings. Now bands put music out on radio, tv, the internet and recordings to get people hooked so they can fill the stadiums and venues where most make the bulk of their cash. They make more money now if it is a popular phone tone than they do from music royalities.


People are now so used to low grade mp3 and streaming through cr@ppy in ear headphones that there is little point in the mass market bands putting too much effort into the sound so they dont fuss so much about the production or quality of the recording engineers.

[juansolo]

You're talking about GFS, right?

I have to admit they sound pretty good and have some character in there too.

If you never tried BKP, Lollar, TV Jones etc. you might even think you've hit the jackpot. Unfortunately, I've been spoiled by those high end pickup and those GFS pickups just won't do it for me because I know there's something beter.

I fitted some GFS pups to a Yamaha Pacifica for someone, the single coils were really very good. I really liked the sound from them. The humbucker was just mud though. Then again, they cost next to nothing and were better than the stock pups so it wasn't so bad.

[PhilKing]

I have a lot of vintage stuff collected through the years, and also a lot of custom stuff.  I started to buy the custom stuff when I realised that I wanted lower powered amps for recording at home, which came about with the introduction of the 4 track reel to reel and then the portastudio.  I have original pedals and new boutique ones (including HBE, Fulltone and Klon).  My old chain when I was gigging was Les Paul/Strat/SG Junior -> Schaller Fuzz/Wah -> MXR Phase 90 -> old Wem Wah -> valve Copycat -> Small Box Marshall 50 & 4x12 or AC30.  The Wem wah had no on/off switch and I used it as a frequency booster to get feedback, rather than as a wah.  Back then my leads were all coily until Whirlwind came along when I swapped out some for their brass jack range.  I used to love the tone I had but the amp was pretty cranked.  When I stopped gigging I bought a Fender Princeton Reverb II and a Roland Bolt 60.   Eventually I found John McIntyre via an article in Guitar Player and bought one of his Stereo 205 combo's (2 separate 5 watt amps [one 6V6, the other EL84], in a combo with 2 8" speakers).  However in my apartment even this was too loud!  I eventually got John to make me the amp that evolved into the Lexicon Signature 284 (a stereo recording amp with 3 watts per channel and rackmounted).

The last boutique amp I got was a Ceriatone, where Nik made me a 18wTMB/EF86 pre with a JTM45 power section.  I also got one of his Overtone Specials.  I bought a Fulltone RTO a few weeks ago and I have some new guitars and BK's which I will report on soon (I am travelling at the moment).  What I will say is that one of my guitars is something I have wanted for a while, it is a 25.5" scale Les Paul. 

For me, I have reached the point where I know what I want to play and what sound I want, which is why I am pretty certain that when I go the custom route I will get what I expect.  However, the real sound I like still is the original setup I had with the Marshall cranked!  Given that there was no bypass in that setup at all, I have never worried about true bypass, because the minute you have a pedal on, then it is irrelevant, and I have a pedal on most of the time, unless I'm just playing into the amp. 

So boutique works for me because I know what I like, however when I picked up my 61 Strat there is still something about it that is magic (I have had it since 1983 and it was just refretted and reboddied).  And if I could do it in a big enough place, the old marshall cranked, 2 wah's and a phaser and echo, I'd be in tone heaven with the strat.

[Denim n Leather]

^ Phil, I love ya but ... what does this have to do with the subject at hand?!!!?! PDT_008

[HTH AMPS]

Guitarists are a conservative bunch for the most part, thats why theres so many 'replicas of' imo.

I've built amps with valves barely anyone here would recognise and they've sounded amazing.  Give it to a typical guitarist and they'll be turning their nose up because it doesn't have 12AX7s and EL34s.  Guitarists want whats familiar to them - tried and tested tones/designs.

[Prawnik]

I don't think that people go back to 'classic' sounds to hark back to youth or nostalgia; its simply the accepted 'voice' of the guitar. Those sounds that were laid down back in the 50's/60's are now as timeless as a piano.

I would say that those sounds are just as specific to a generation as those of the 1980's or any other time. Try telling a 24-year old about Duane Allman and you might as well be talking about Stan Getz' expanded harmonic vocabulary.

Or you'll probably get a response like "real guitars are for old people."

[blue]

my own gear is a mixture of analogue and digital, boutique and mass produced, new and vintage.

i think there is a lot of "boutique" gear that plays on that tag to overprice itself, and some that is well made, great sounding stuff at sensible prices.  the likes of zvex aren't cheap, but aren't insanely expensive, and is one of the few companies that seem to be trying to advance analogue effects.  and can you blame analog-man for charging plenty for the King-of-tone when there's a near two year waiting list!?  meanwhile, i have their analog chorus and peppermint fuzz, both great pedals at fairly sensible prices.  but nothing new!

Electro-Harmonix do come out with some new and interesting effects.  but the great majority of effects, amps and guitars are recreations or approximations of old stuff.  it is good, i think, that old gear that's no longer available can be got hold off, often in a more reliable or versatile form.  i also think it's a pity that the market is such that innovation is largely ignored in favour imitation.  i'm sure plenty of these guys could build new and fascinating effects, but who would buy them?  and big companies aren't known for taking risks by releasing untried ideas into the wild.
and yet there are some smallish firms that do: pigtronix have some funky stuff;  the Diamond delay pedal is interesting if very expensive.  and that feedback looper thing i can't remember the name of  :oops:

then there's amps.  everyone looks down their noses at solid state and modelling amps, but they're practical and affordable.  the advent of modelling has brought tones that couldn't have been dreamt of by the average player 15 years ago into every bedroom in the land!  i do think that if a company with a decent R&D budget were to build high end solid state amps, there isn't any reason why they couldn't rival valve amps for tone and feel.  but pretty much every small amp maker is doing clones of old valve amps.

i can't remember now what point i was trying to make! or even what the original theme was! :)  i have to work now, so hopefully i'll collect my thoughts, realise what i want to say and continue later...

[Bradock PI]

Why do some of these posts bring to mind Trigger in Only fools

So this is a 63 strat

Yes had the same guitar for 46 years

wow thats a long time

Yes and it's only had 213 sets of strings, 3 machine heads, 2 necks, 5 lots of frets, 4 sets of pickups a new body, 3 new top plates, and 5 tremolos, 6 new pots, 2 new switches and the partridge on the neck isnt origional

 :lol: