Username: Password:

Author Topic: Sh*t vs. Acceptable  (Read 6121 times)

Jonny

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 2890
  • Seven-String Financial Analyst in Training
Sh*t vs. Acceptable
« on: July 29, 2009, 11:09:20 AM »
I'm at my dad's work today, and eating a pie, I obviously had a bubble of thought on guitars.

Specifically cheap ones, like Squires and then the moderately acceptable like, in the case of Fender, maybe the Mexican built ones.

Now I was tryingto think like a new beginner to the guitar and thought - if i wanted a guitar, I'd want a good guitar not necessarily knowing that there were a great big difference to them. Hence why I would look at the cheap guitars, unaware of the hugely great difference there is in build quality and general "I $%&#ing love this" kind of feeling that you feel later on.

So if your dad, who would possibly buy your first guitar went into the guitar shop and asked to buy a beginner guitar, they would generally be directed to a guitar kit. The usual Squire guitar, with amp, lead, and everything to get your kid off his ass and into some music and possible theory.

So - why do I think this is wrong? Maybe it is wrong or right in some ways but I think in the long run if you put work into potentially lower guitar, i.e. the Squire then you could have a quality guitar (without knowing it, let's remember that) and have a good investment. There are hundreds of guitars out there that are absolute shiteE. And surely you could get off your feet and look into making them better and eventually the price would very much so decrease to the suitable level of a middle class family man with a kid headbanging to some Black Sabbath or tapping his foot to some blues or jumping off the walls and flinging his arms to some screamo (excuse the stereotyping).

Like the Yamaha Pacifica for example, and I only know its goodness from ear so sorry if you disagree, don't blame me. It is generally thought as a good quality guitar and more and more people I hear recommend a Pacifica over a Squire. I unfortunately didn't get that advice when I bought my Encore - but that's in the past!

And also, if a guitar is build like shite, sounds like shite, feels like shite (not the warm and pungent (sp) type "feel") without a doub ti think some kids would give up on the guitar cause it doesn't 'work' with them. It's just a piece of wood put in a certain way to give you as much satisfaction when you buy, then disappear altogether when you use it.

Thoughts? Just want to talk about something as obviously I'm so $%&#ing excited with pie in hand and working for my dad (without getting paid)

Like, the way I thought about it in my head was the general lacking of range in guitar models in the shop, like you'd have a Stratocaster/Telecaster American Standard but have half a dozen Squires in different colours. Why not a Deluxe? Or even a Deluxe from the Mexican range, or the Lonestar, or a HSS setup for Christ's sake. Sometimes you have to set your God damn money grabbing hands aside and think about the general fun you could have and the person buying if you differentiate a bit.

But now I've lost myself in how to link that with my original argument so there's two arguments for you.

Why can't they make shite guitars better (and I mean like Fender and Gibson, not some random company who can't achieve the favorable diminishing returns) like, eventually they can get their prices down again.

Maybe I'm just having one of those thoughts that will ultimately end in - that's life, it grabs you by the balls, not the other way around.

I'm probably just annoyed at them cause I'm in Belfast, Northern Ireland and maybe the company controls the stock but still.. I had to talk about it, cause you know, I'm so excited right now.
"Would you like some lemon oil?"
"Oh, no thanks, I don't eat fruit."

Twinfan

  • Light Heavyweight
  • ******
  • Posts: 10528
Re: Sh*t vs. Acceptable
« Reply #1 on: July 29, 2009, 11:34:17 AM »
They have to make cheap guitars cheap, otherwise they wouldn't be cheap  ;)

Plus, Fender or Gibson want you to upgrade to their more expensive models.  Why make an Epiphone LP that looks and feels like a '59 reissue?  That's no use to the marketing department is it??

MDV

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 6945
  • If it sounds good it IS good
Re: Sh*t vs. Acceptable
« Reply #2 on: July 29, 2009, 11:55:10 AM »
The primary objective of guitar companies is not to make guitarists, its to sell guitars. It should all make sense viewed in this light.

Ian Price

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 4571
Re: Sh*t vs. Acceptable
« Reply #3 on: July 29, 2009, 11:57:32 AM »
I remember when I first started playing (I had a gap of about 8 years before I picked up a guitar again) the guitar I had was very, very bad. I think it was a black Encore Strat copy* (through an awful, awful Samick amp). This probably contributed to me stopping playing and I don't even know why I started again (I bought an Epi LP and Marshall Valvestate amp**).

The way I see it is that the quality and range of 'cheaper' guitars is so much better nowadays - vintage, squire (particularly CVs), daisy rock (yes, I have one - it was bought for my daughter) and yamaha all make good 'entry level' guitars but you still need to spend a little more than you would on those encore starter packs.

Basically cheap guitars are there for a reason - find a good one and it will push you down the route of getting a more expensive model maybe from the same manufacturer (not always better IMO). Find a bad one, like I did, and it can make you stop for a while.


*My dad bought it for me.
** I tried out a number of different amps and guitars and went for these.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2009, 11:59:09 AM by Ian Price »
I think I hate being indecisive.

Roobubba

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 2786
Re: Sh*t vs. Acceptable
« Reply #4 on: July 29, 2009, 12:06:07 PM »
Sorry, I only got as far as "pie". :(

MDV

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 6945
  • If it sounds good it IS good
Re: Sh*t vs. Acceptable
« Reply #5 on: July 29, 2009, 12:09:10 PM »
Yeah, we dont have enough information here to make a call

What kind of pie?

Hot pie or cold pie?

What sort of pastry?

We need more pie info! And more pie. I dont have any pie. Could go some pie too, I'm hungry.

Philly Q

  • Light Heavyweight
  • ******
  • Posts: 18109
Re: Sh*t vs. Acceptable
« Reply #6 on: July 29, 2009, 12:20:51 PM »
As Dave says, it's all about costs.  In order to market guitars at different price points, they have to control the costs sufficiently to still make a profit at that price point.

Although in fact I'd guess the profit margin on the starter models is much, much less than the margin on the high-end models.

Anyway, I think I disagree about cheap guitars being shite.  Even the cheapest Squiers are amazing compared to the starter guitars which were around 30 years ago.

Even if they are shite, can that kid with his first guitar tell the difference?  He won't have tried many better guitars to compare it with.  I think most kids are just pleased they have something they can plug in and make a noise.  Then in a year's time they'll either have given up or they'll have learned enough to want something better.

BKPs I've Got:  RR, BKP-91, ITs, VHII, CS set, Emeralds
BKPs I Had:  RY+Abraxas, Crawlers, BD+SM

mikeluke

  • Lightweight
  • ***
  • Posts: 982
    • http://www.thesockmonkeys.co.uk
Re: Sh*t vs. Acceptable
« Reply #7 on: July 29, 2009, 12:26:38 PM »
One of my mates bought short scale Daisy Rock butterfly guitar for his daughter in the USA - it was not cheap (around $200) but it is $hite!

Mules, Riff-Raff

maverickf1jockey

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 1051
  • Still awaiting the release of Uncle Meat.
Re: Sh*t vs. Acceptable
« Reply #8 on: July 29, 2009, 01:02:07 PM »
My first guitar was awful but the crucial thing may well have been that I paid for it, rather than it being paid for by a relative, so for my first year of playing I was just glad to have something to make some noise on.

That said I then upgraded to a nicer guitar a year later and before that I had got what I consider one of the best solid state practice amps in the form of the 10W Kustom amp (and not even the hybrid one; this one was fully transistor and still sounded plausible.).
I too use chicken as a measurement.

FELINEGUITARS

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 6609
  • London & Southeast's Number 1 BKP stockist
    • http://www.felineguitars.com
Re: Sh*t vs. Acceptable
« Reply #9 on: July 29, 2009, 01:06:19 PM »
30 years ago - a copy guitar - a cheap one cost about £100
Today they dont cost much more whilst other thigs like house prices have gone through the ceiling
The guitars you got 30 years ago weren't always that good either- a lot of the cheapies these days are fairly well adjusted straight from he factory.
You do have to choose carefully though with the ultra cheapies
But if you spend just a bit more you get a much better guitar
Look at brands like Shine, Indie, Samick, Cort- fantastic build quality most of the time
www.felineguitars.com - repairs & custom built
Great fretwork!
Buy your BKPs & Earvana from ME!

Ian Price

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 4571
Re: Sh*t vs. Acceptable
« Reply #10 on: July 29, 2009, 01:06:24 PM »
Even if they are shitee, can that kid with his first guitar tell the difference?  He won't have tried many better guitars to compare it with.  I think most kids are just pleased they have something they can plug in and make a noise.

I wouldn't have been able to compare my encore with a higher end guitar but I somehow knew that it sounded awful - it was truly, truly awful and fairly obvious to me that it was that bad. This is probably why I had a large gap between stopping and starting again. I had no way of affording better quality stuff and the encore really did put me off wanting to play.
I think I hate being indecisive.

gwEm

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 7456
    • http://www.preromanbritain.com/gwem
Re: Sh*t vs. Acceptable
« Reply #11 on: July 29, 2009, 01:19:03 PM »
my first guitar was a nylon strung acoustic - was pretty ropey, but not too bad.

then i got an epiphone flying V, and a sansamp.. funny, but i still play a V (though a gibson one) and a sansamp today. i don't think its a coincidence - they got me at an early stage. but that epiphone was actually a really great guitar, totally giggable.

agree those encore starter kits, and the like, a pretty bad - horrid frets, shiteety materials.. and low end squires aren't much better frankly. i suppose they are making them to a cost, and £69 for a guitar and amp is totally shaving things to the bone.

the step up to lets say, mid-range epiphone, and high end squire quality is massive as you point out, although that is 3-4 times the price at least. and then 4x more again gets you into USA made stuff.

there is a way you could carve a niche in the price bracket just below epiphone, as vintage have done for example - thats the space they play in. i don't think one could compete in the lowest price bracket range - thats a complete numbers game.

£69 isn't bad as a throw-away experiment if you want to learn, but as ian says - those guitars will put you off!! going for something like an epiphone is much less of a throwaway expense.
« Last Edit: July 29, 2009, 01:20:57 PM by gwEm »
Quote from: AndyR
you wouldn't use the meat knife on crusty bread but, equally, the serrated knife and straight edge knife aren't going to go through raw meat as quickly

jpfamps

  • Lightweight
  • ***
  • Posts: 767
    • http://www.jpfamps.com
Re: Sh*t vs. Acceptable
« Reply #12 on: July 29, 2009, 01:48:55 PM »
Without wanting to sound like one of the four Yorkshiremen — kid's of today don't know their born etc.........

The quality of budget guitars these days is light years ahead of what was available when I started playing, and as Feline says the price hasn't really gone up in cash terms. The Woolworths guitars of the 70s/80's were about £100 and were absolutely terrible. Nothing I've played made recently is anywhere near as bad as those guitars.

OK a budget guitar won't sound as nice as a more expensive guitar, and certainly wouldn't hold up "on the road" as well, but they can be made to play very well, so anyone learning on one of these instruments won't be hindered by the unplayability of their first guitar.

FELINEGUITARS

  • Middleweight
  • *****
  • Posts: 6609
  • London & Southeast's Number 1 BKP stockist
    • http://www.felineguitars.com
Re: Sh*t vs. Acceptable
« Reply #13 on: July 29, 2009, 02:15:18 PM »
If a kid and his dad walked into a halfway decent guitar shop (yes a shop rather than a mail order  or web shop), then the shop assistant is he was any good would talk the pair through what was on offer at what price.

They would try to upsell to the better quality package - that might only be £50 more but has a much better instrument in it.
They would point out the pros and cons of the better package  and it's up to dad which one gets bought

the reason that the shop will often have both the cheap and the pricier pack in is so if Dad says No to the higher price one , then the shop still gets a sale rather than sending him elsewhere.

If you ask me - no guitar on its own should cost less than £130 and it should be of Squier standard series (rather than Affinity series) quality to begin with. That means that a beginner will have a better guitar to play on which should encourage them a lot more, and there will be les probelms in the future.

The player should also be made to feel the value of what they have bought and cherish it and keep it safe.
Too often the cheaper price stops kids from respecting their guitars and they view it like any other "throwaway" commodity like cheap trainers or whatever.
www.felineguitars.com - repairs & custom built
Great fretwork!
Buy your BKPs & Earvana from ME!

dheim

  • Welterweight
  • ****
  • Posts: 1945
  • DON'TPANIC!
Re: Sh*t vs. Acceptable
« Reply #14 on: July 29, 2009, 02:31:49 PM »
you could give a kid an expensive range of gear and yet he'll sound like the complete beginner he is... but in terms of feel a really cheap instrument can turn him down... many friends of mine started playing on horrible guitars directly plugged in their hi-fi sets and of course never really got into music... i remember one of them with his strat copy completely painted with marker pens... to make the pickups sound he had to put it so close to the strings that the slugs pinched them every time... i remember he paid 40k ITL for it. used. today's 20€... a real nightmare!

my dad bought me a used (full of setup issues, but definitely better than i could handle at the time) USA strat for 700k ITL, an awful chinese Yinbao 15 w amp (single - clean - channel) and a Boss SD1 pedal. an year later i bought a used Boss delay/reverb pedal and began to enjoy REALLY...

i went on playing, that friend of mine not.
Mule, MQ, Stockholm, CS, RY, MM, PK, ANB, CNB, AWP, CWP, PiG90...

too many? ;)