Is Health and Safety a new religion?

[tomjackson]

I work in a job where H&S is very important but some people seem to be taking things to a new level, examples are:-

Having to access something 12ft high, with a cherrypicker
Stopping a job because some lifting equipment was not certified, even though it was not being used
Having to use a ladder to access a load bed (the 4 foot high back of a wagon)
Not being able to access the above loadbed because the ladder did not have a certificate
Not being able to use a climbing harness becuase it did not have a certificate, even though it was new

I've tried to argue common sense with the H&S 'police' on issues like this but worringly there is a smart arse answer to everything, rather like some religions have to common sense things like evolution.

Is H&S the new religion in the workplace?

[MDV]

Its about appearance and arse covering.

Appearance - companies want to say 'look, we have an amazing safety record'

Arse covering - companies want to say 'well, we told you so and told you things to avoid that' when the one in a million of falling 4 feet and breaking a limb or slipping on the stairs or whatever happen because someone is clumsy or not paying good common sense attention to what they're doing so they cant be sued

And yes, its hammered into us. I find it incredibly condescending. It makes companies treat perfectly sensible and capable adults like 4 year olds and I have nothing but unremmiting contempt for it.

Which doesnt mean to say I think people shouldnt pay attention to safety measures - but those that are required are common sense and those that are getting thrown around now are going WAY too far because of the shear statistics of it - its a numbers game: enough people do something often enough and the extremely stupid and the extremely unlikely will start to happen, so everyone has to behave as though they're extremely stupid or extremely unlucky.

[MDV]

And yes, its become another kind of unsubstantiated irrational dogma, just like religion. Stick "Because of safety" on ANYTHING and it will be bowed down to whether justified or not.

[Will]

Can't stand next to a reversing JCB without ear protection :?

Yes, new religeon, IMO it comes from the USA's view upon lawsuits

[MDV]

Can't stand next to a reversing JCB without ear protection :?

Yes, new religeon, IMO it comes from the USA's view upon lawsuits

Theres a bridge across some steam pipes with steam valves venting a short distance from my building. The valves give off about 85db peak, tops. I'd be surprised if it was even that, actually: you can talk over it without difficulty. That means that even very pessimistically you can hang round them for about 2 hours (really more like 8, but it depends what study you look at) without any permanent hearing damage, and yet theres a sign saying "Noise Hazard: Do Not Loiter"

[tomjackson]

Good points guys, I'm glad it's not just me thinking it!

In addition to the well put Appearance and Arse covering I would like to add Empire Building and Personal Agendas.

So rather than lookng at it from a company wide thing I see it from the perspective of the Health and Safety departent / persons point of view.  Due to them having clout with company directors for the first 2 points they can:-

a) increase their own feeling of self importance
b) further their careers
d) If they are senior they can build an empire
e) If they are an external consultancy, they justify their existance by making new 'unsafe' things up

Company Directors almost always listen to them for the Arse Covering point

Don't get me wrong, I have met some good H&S guys and they are definitely required (I work in construction and I myself take site safety seriously and have seen some pretty dangerous practises).

It's just the idiots that take it too far that annoy me.  The problem is they seem to be becoming the norm and the policy makers :?

[hunter]

[irony]
These are healthy measures to reduce productivity as the total output capacity of our economy by far exceeds the world demand for products and services. Measures to reduce productivity and means to enforce them ensure a reinstitution of the balance of supply and demand and full employment.
[/irony]

[MDV]

Oh, theres no doubt that gutless maggot tiny dicked little deskjob-despots use the safety rule book, and any other, to uncomprehendingly beat people over the head with to make themselves feel like big men.

And theres no doubt that these people advance their carreers by making other people look bad, rather than making themselves look good (which they cant, because they're only intelligent and capable enough to read a rule book and throw it at someone, not enough to understand the rule book and intelligently apply it)

[AndyR]

[irony]
These are healthy measures to reduce productivity as the total output capacity of our economy by far exceeds the world demand for products and services. Measures to reduce productivity and means to enforce them ensure a reinstitution of the balance of supply and demand and full employment.
[/irony]

:lol:
Never had you down as conspiracy-theorist! (Even if you're not, the act of posting this on the interweb has started/furthered one - excellent :D)

To answer the question though, no, it's not a new religion, it's getting on 20-odd years old at least - that's quite old now...

[hunter]

[irony]
These are healthy measures to reduce productivity as the total output capacity of our economy by far exceeds the world demand for products and services. Measures to reduce productivity and means to enforce them ensure a reinstitution of the balance of supply and demand and full employment.
[/irony]

:lol:
Never had you down as conspiracy-theorist! (Even if you're not, the act of posting this on the interweb has started/furthered one - excellent :D)

To answer the question though, no, it's not a new religion, it's getting on 20-odd years old at least - that's quite old now...

Yeah well ... I studied political economics once ... sometimes it still shows :O)

[MisterMuncher]

Having been a health and safety bod in a lab, no less, I can pretty much guarantee most of it has dick all to do with H&S law or the HSE, and rather more to do with litigious types getting a claim in every time they crack a fingernail.

It's a little wearing being the bogeyman all the time, especially when the crimes being committed are someone else's. If one considers the kind of reduction in frequency and seriousness in workplace accidents the HSE has brought about since it's inception, it's pretty hard to fault it.

(TL;DR version: Don't like "too many" Safety Rules? Stop bloody suing, then)

[FernandoDuarte]

Here on south (downstairs??) it's much more "speech" than something really done... Lets say that people tend to follow when the things are easy, but when happen something that the boss want it to be done quick, it's pretty much forgot...

[Afghan Dave]

Though I too find many of the points of contact ridiculous...

I see no alternative since the introduction of "ambulance chasers" into the UK.

Every NHS information leaflet I got from casualty last weekend offered my the services of a "no win -no fee" claims company.

What choice does a company/govt dept have if everybody looks for financial redress when they have an "accident"?

They are called accidents for a f**king reason...

As is often the case We Get The Society We Deserve  :(

[WezV]

i work in a school as some of you know.  I occasionally take projects into school to do the jobs i just cant do in my workshop at home... usually its to use the pillar drill which is much bigger than i have at the moment and its much easier drilling string through holes on theirs than it is mine!

i always make a point of asking a technician before doing it, just out of politeness, and they are always happy for me to do it.

Last time i went in and a technician wasnt there - so i asked another member of the department. 

I was told that i could only use a drill if a member of the D&T department stood and kept an eye on me!!   They let students use these machines all the time, admittedly with an adult in the room, but often on the other side of the room.   the funny thing is i have more experience and skill with tools than all the D&T staff put together ... and most of them know that!!!

but whatever, if thats what needs to happen i dont mind showing the staff how to use the tools properly :)

[MDV]

Though I too find many of the points of contact ridiculous...

I see no alternative since the introduction of "ambulance chasers" into the UK.

Every NHS information leaflet I got from casualty last weekend offered my the services of a "no win -no fee" claims company.

What choice does a company/govt dept have if everybody looks for financial redress when they have an "accident"?

They are called accidents for a f**king reason...

As is often the case We Get The Society We Deserve  :(

No, we all get the society a few of us deserve.

In this case.

At work the other week I visited another building that has a footpath across some grass thats the easiest way to get to the front door. There were barriers at either end of it this particular time, but the path was the same, there was no work being done anywhere nearby, the whole place was identical to usual save the barriers. Perfectly good footpath. So I ignored the barriers and walked across it.

When I get inside some little tw@t (see replies 5 and 7 for more information) comes up to me and says "why did you cross the barriers? Youre supposed to obey the barriers and the signs on them" I told him that there was nothing different about the place apart from the barriers, and it posed no hazard whatsoever to cross them. He carried on berating me for a bit, which I ignored, and finally said that "It is a bit trivial actually; someone tripped on the edge of the path"

SOOO some clumsy git falls off a 2 inch high footpath and they cordon off the area like its a $%&#ing deathtrap and have a go at anyone with the sense to ignore it and without the ineptitude to fall off a 2 inch drop.

Makes perfect sense.