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Author Topic: just how important is the Royal Family?  (Read 17654 times)

nfe

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Re: just how important is the Royal Family?
« Reply #30 on: October 05, 2009, 05:38:43 PM »
IIRC the monarchy receive just under £38 million from the tax payer.

Has there been a massive drop?

The Queen was being paid in excess of £80,000 in '99/2000 whenever I was studying it. Over and above the other Royals plus the costs of their staff, security and homes.

Thats really surprisingly low. I know people, work with them, whos wages are paid by taxes and earn more than that. I earn a little less than half that and my wages are mostly from taxes. 80,000 as one wage is one senior manager in any branch of civil service.

That was a mistake, I meant to write 80 million.

MDV

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Re: just how important is the Royal Family?
« Reply #31 on: October 05, 2009, 06:42:08 PM »
Now THATS more like it!

dave_mc

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Re: just how important is the Royal Family?
« Reply #32 on: October 05, 2009, 09:03:42 PM »
The monarchy look pretty cheap when compared to the 2 billion that Gordon Brown lost us with his gold dealings.  If the Royals had any real power at all they would use it to stop idoits like Brown being able to do things like that.

those are two very different things, though. If gordon brown messes up, you can vote him out at the next election. If a royal messes up (certainly in the past when they did have actual power, and used it for much more gip than any modern democractic british democracy [which is not to say that the modern british democracies haven't been up to all kinds of gip, just not quite as much :lol: ]), you can't. The fact that we had to have a civil war to get rid of a cr@p king (who, granted, was replaced by not much better, and arguably worse) pretty much shows how democracy is preferable to absolute monarchy.

Elliot

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Re: just how important is the Royal Family?
« Reply #33 on: October 07, 2009, 01:15:34 AM »
PlexiKen - You are wrong in your history - the beheading of Charles I did not 'directly lead to parliament being suspended' - Parliament sat as 'a commonwealth (in Latin 'Respublica') and free state' for 5 years before Cromwell's coup d'etat in 1653.  In that time it set out to provide a republican identity for England and to bring in a raft of equitable reforms.  I am not a fan of Cromwell, but he did not take power for those 5 years - a short period, but not 'directly suspended'.   

'democracy being abandoned'.  This is your first anachronist reading that has no sensitivity to 17th century voting rights - to have the vote in England in the 17th century you had to have either 40 shillings worth of freehold land or an income of £40 per annum - which pretty much excluded the majority of the population.     

As to 'Cromwell becoming dictator for life'.  Cromwell's goal was to heal and settle England by tempering the Republicans through the introduction first of religious radicals (Barebones' Assembly 1653 ) and then the two Protectorate Parliaments which return a large number of non Republican Parliamentarians - these were based on relatively free elections with only recalcitrant Royalists (and a few ex Levellers) being excluded. 

Yes Cromwell did become assume the reigns of power, and I think wrongly, but to suggest that Cromwell was a 'fascist' really shows no understanding of the term or of 17th century history.  Fascism is a 20th century doctrine based on a strong centralised racial state in a industrial or post society - it cannot with any accuracy be applied to 17th century England.  The Cromwellian Protectorate was modeled on Venetian dogeist republicanism - a Parliament under the guidance of the monarchical element of the doge as a constitutional president.  In fact, far from being facsist, it was the only time in English history that England was governed by the principles of a (relatively liberal) written constitution (the Instrument of Government) and, until the 19th century, that a broad range of toleration for religious difference existed.

Now I realise that the then foreign countries of Ireland and Scotland suffered under the might of the New Model Army - Ireland because of a long standing English racial prejudice coupled with a dangerously militant Protestant world view and Scotland because its Presbyterian leadership kept sending troops into England to restore Charles II as the Scots covenanted king (despite the fact that he was as Presbyterian as the Pope).  It might be added that 1 English Catholic was executed when Oliver Cromwell was Protector (and against his wishes) but many were executed under Charles I, so he hardly was a fascist. 

As to Restoration being the 'only possible solution' - This is the logical error of inevitabilism - and you haven't read your historical sources - No one expected monarchy to be restored until mid 1659 (for example Royalist spies like Silius Tiitus were writing to Charles Stuart that he didn't have a hope of returning as king as late as January 1659).  The trigger for Restoration was when the Army broke out into in fighting after the deposition of Richard Cromwell, Oliver having died in 1658.  If it hadn't been for this period of in in-fighting the Scottish New Model Army General George Monck would never have marched to London and consulted with Presbyterians on his way south to take their view as to the settlement of the country by way of restoration.  There was nothing inevitable about the Restoration until this time and, in fact, viewed from the direction of 1653-1659 as opposed to the logically fallacious direction of 1660 backwards was unlikely to have happened (altough, of course, it did).  As I say, in my view a terrible contingency in history that deliberately turned the clock back in England and stunted its development for a century and leaves us with a parasitical monarchy and over powerful parliamentary executive (the Cabinet) that hides behind the monarchy to act like temporary tyrants.
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Philly Q

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Re: just how important is the Royal Family?
« Reply #34 on: October 07, 2009, 01:30:33 AM »
Well....  :|








..... that's easy for you to say.
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CaptainDesslock

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Re: just how important is the Royal Family?
« Reply #35 on: October 07, 2009, 04:57:06 AM »
Well....  :|








..... that's easy for you to say.

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JamesHealey

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Re: just how important is the Royal Family?
« Reply #36 on: October 07, 2009, 08:43:07 AM »
I see why we have one, I understand it brings money into the country through tourism etc.

But if I ever met a member of the royal family face to face i'd kick them in the privates.

Elliot

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Re: just how important is the Royal Family?
« Reply #37 on: October 07, 2009, 09:05:26 AM »
Sorry all, especially Ken - too much London Pride after travelling in 3 days between Zurich - Geneva - London - Plymouth - London with a heavy cold...
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Plexi Ken

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Re: just how important is the Royal Family?
« Reply #38 on: October 07, 2009, 10:17:26 AM »
No need to apologise, your knowledge of civil war/restoration period is superior to mine  :)
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_tom_

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Re: just how important is the Royal Family?
« Reply #39 on: October 07, 2009, 10:39:49 AM »
Well to be honest I have no $%&#ing clue about the politics behind it all, but I'm not really fussed whether we have a King/Queen or a president.

Ian Price

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Re: just how important is the Royal Family?
« Reply #40 on: October 07, 2009, 10:45:55 AM »
Well to be honest I have no $%&#ing clue about the politics behind it all, but I'm not really fussed whether we have a King/Queen or a president.

 :D

As long as I can play guitar (badly) and have a job I tend to not get worked up about politics - it's mainly all posturing and spin nowadays and I have enough of that already. A bit of an apathetic view I know.
I think I hate being indecisive.

fbloke

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Re: just how important is the Royal Family?
« Reply #41 on: October 07, 2009, 05:17:55 PM »
OK, let's take this in a new direction that may be more fun:

WHICH ROCK ROYALTY WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE BEHEADED?

I'll start you off with any rock millionaires who won't put their stuff on iTunes so that we can download the individual tracks we like.  Not enough revenue in it for them apparently.  You know who I'm talking about, McCartney.  First on the block.

Philly Q

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Re: just how important is the Royal Family?
« Reply #42 on: October 07, 2009, 05:27:50 PM »
WHICH ROCK ROYALTY WOULD YOU LIKE TO SEE BEHEADED?

Edward Van Halen.
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Simon D

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Re: just how important is the Royal Family?
« Reply #43 on: October 07, 2009, 05:53:22 PM »
I have to admit, I sit firmly in the minority in this thread, in that I'm a republican, and have been since I first started studying politics. It's been interesting to read everyone else's opinions on the subject though, but I haven't read anything that's persuaded me to change my mind I'm afraid!  :)
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JJretroTONEGOD

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Re: just how important is the Royal Family?
« Reply #44 on: October 09, 2009, 10:26:08 PM »
I despise the Royal Family, they have took our money and spent it until we die an early death overworked. England is not a true democracy. Personally I prefer the French politcal system to any other in the world, we should have a president, but not Gordon Brown, he isn't even English! and he looks like a spaz-mong when he opens his weird fish like mouth.

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